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Vapourware CLANG - Realistic fencing kickstarter game is dead

almondblight

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http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang/posts

All stances and moves in a system are therefore embodied, within a MASE, as sets of coordinates and paths. Some of those moves are so obvious and basic that even the lowest-level character will have immediate access to them. More advanced moves will have to be acquired over time by learning them from trainers in the game world. Learning a move adds it, in effect, to the inventory of things your character is capable of doing. You gain access to more of the combat tree, giving you the ability to execute a wider range of moves.

If you play Warcraft, you can make an analogy here to the inventory of spells, attacks, etc. that a character acquires over time. For a high-level character, this becomes a vast array of options, many of which are context-dependent in some way. The interface becomes the bottleneck. Actions need to be mapped to keys on the keyboard. When the keyboard fills up, players need to create multiple key maps and switch between them. Much of the screen real estate is taken up with icons, some of which may be grayed out or timed out in a context-dependent manner. In CLANG we seek to replace that style of interface with a swordlike object that you can move through space to select options from your "inventory" in a more obvious and intuitive way.


So let me get this straight. This is supposed to be about realistic sword fighting, but your character has to learn moves to unlock them? And then such moves are triggered by motion controller action?
 

sgc_meltdown

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combat gestures

I guess granular freeform weapon control within physical limits was too unintuitive and lacked the engaging draw of having to unlock movesets like hack and slash call of duty

I knew this fucking thing was too good to be true
 

Haba

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That is just a mechanic for teaching you, the player, the various sword techniques. Obviously nothing stops you from playing with all the moves unlocked.

sword_anim_tree1.jpg


Unless you are a fencing expert, you need to be taught the stances and follow up attacks you can effectively perform from there.

Not to mention the additional sword fighting styles - from mocap perspective the stances and moves can be identical. Their system would theoretically allow you to mix several fighting styles, while without it you'd probably be locked to a single style.

Also, the very god damn first dev reply on that post:

@John The only advantage "In System" fighters will have is one of technique. If your moves are better, you can still fight out of system, but the UI won't ba able to help would and the animation will be relying completely on IK, which maybe be less splendid than our lovely hand-polished mocap.
 

almondblight

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That is just a mechanic for teaching you, the player, the various sword techniques. Obviously nothing stops you from playing with all the moves unlocked.

Yeah, not so sure about that:

No hardware controller can measure every nuance of position and movement. By doing some basic pattern recognition on how the controller is oriented, however, it's possible to make a pretty good guess as to what stance the player wants his character to be in. If the data from the controller matches up with a known stance from the MASE, then we are In-System. The character in the game world drops into an animation that is biomechanically stable and martially sound. Various options in the combat tree become available. For example, if CLANG recognizes that you are in Posta di Donna, it will light up a number of relevant options on the attack star (a user interface widget that we'll talk about in a future technical note), cueing the player that a wide range of angles of attack can be launched from this stance.
So it's going to snap the avatar into a particular stance if the game thinks you want to be in that, and then the motions in said stance will be pre-recorded. Not sure if you can turn it off completely but:

Sometimes CLANG might not be able to map the player's position onto a known stance from the MASE. In that case we are Out-of-System. CLANG then defaults to using the built-in capabilities of the game engine (inverse kinematics) to make the character stand and move in a plausible way. Many of the offensive and defensive options in the user interface become grayed out, since they can't be launched from arbitrary stances. In other words, being Out-of-System is not a desirable situation when you are playing the game, and most players will quickly learn how to avoid it. A simple interface (a reset button on the controller, for example) can be used to get back In-System when things have gotten into this state.

It's not a training mode, it's the mode that the game is built around, and they're saying that players will quickly realize that they shouldn't leave said mode. A mode that grays out combat options. You could probably try to play this game freeform, but I imagine it would end up being clunky and you most of the moves you made wouldn't work.
 

Haba

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I reckon "out of system" will be pretty much like in Die by the Sword, i.e. occasionally looking rather awkward if you tried to do something silly. Some of their videos show the difference.

It will be interesting to see how they tackle feints and the such.



For example, with the above you'd already be "locked in" on a swing, yet changing the direction on the last minute with a swift motion should free you from it and lock you on another.
 

Overboard

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Funny how they have three of the Fiore Poste in Italian and the other two in English. Make your fucking minds up.
 

SCO

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Doesn't work. You're swinging at air. No contact with another blade gives that awkward feeling. Might as well make a bow simulator.
Actually... a bow simulator could work very well with a adapted bow that doesn't actually shoot anything.
 

sgc_meltdown

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some dudes are going to strap the controls to their dicks for this I just know it

new age cardio
 

Kz3r0

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I saw now the ad on the forum list page for this Kickstarter, the guy is serious.
 
Self-Ejected

Ulminati

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Oh dear... they made their funding goal.

I wish them all the best, but this project is going to be a trainwreck, in whose trail will follow a river of tears and shaken fists.
 
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This will not work out and the primary reason is because it won't feel like a full game. You'll get into it and think to yourself "what is the point of even playing this?" and lose interest after not too long.

He doesn't have the resources to do anything substantial and should really be looking to make a license-able modular piece of technology for full-scale studios in the vein of havok physics that studios can use to build their combat system on. The very first step should be finding a company who is interested in incorporating it into their game (probably some kind of action-adventure) and then developing it in close contact with that studio. If he was to do it that way, then this would not only expand the potential of his own project, but give the game it is used in a significant point of difference.

His current plan is just not going to be able to deliver anything but an empty shell of a game.
 

Mangoose

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I guess no European swordfighting interested peoples in this thread. I used to be pretty obsessed, but that was during high school. Slightly butthurt that he picked Italian style rather than German longsword (Talhoffer), though maybe Fiore's manual was more detailed. I still recall some Talhoffer stances, though. OTOH they're probably pretty similar. I just loved that one German stance that's just like Crono's typical stance in Chrono Trigger.

Crono0.jpg


STC.jpg


Third one, obviously.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/StancesIntro.htm

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Talhoffer1443-1459Editions.htm

Actually I am somewhat surprised that they're using Fiore because I recall ARMA (the main organization that studies this kinda stuff) does more German longsword. But I am very likely wrong.

Oh and fuck SCA.
 

Mangoose

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Perhaps ARMA is old and no longer the main-standing society for WMA (Western martial arts).

Shit's so cool though:





Edit: I guess the German schools have more hand-on-blade fighting (forget what that's called, 'grinding' perhaps?) for armored combat, which may be harder to simulate with those motion controls. Fiore, on assumption, may be from a later historical context when people would duel armorless or with less armor. During the Renaissance, two-handed sword fighting was less a military application but rather a civilian/noble dueling tool.
 

Mangoose

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Don't think so, like I said it's probably much harder than Fiore because of the grabbing and leveraging and grappling. And then it turns to fisticuffs. Or pommel bashing.

Hell, there are no swordfighting games that emulate any Western swordfighting. Except CLANG! Everything else may be good gameplay (Severance, DBTW), but nothing that emulates concrete stances, forms, etc.

Actually would it be that hard? At least for a 2d fighting game. I mean I remember Soul Calibur seemed to have at least some realistic moves. And Virtua Fighter of course in terms of unarmed.
 

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