Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Companions and levelling

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Something that's always bugged me is how RPG companions are levelled along with you. This design approach particularly stuck out in NWN2's Shandra, whose Fighter class and attributes were basically born full-grown and wearing armor, directly out of the kludgy narrative's head.

There are a few obvious reasons for all of this. E.g., it's much easier for developers to tune difficulty levels when the player and his companions are all balanced in power. It's also true that, without this type of auto-levelling, players confront a reinforcement dynamic that can narrow their choice of travelling companions; once you've adventured with a particular companion and invested in their advancement, there's an incentive to stick with them rather than with other companions who haven't shared that advancement.

The downside is significant, tho. The most notable bottom line for me is that it simply makes no freakin' sense. Sure, some games claim that your companions are adventuring on their own when you don't choose them, but this feels to me like a crutch for what's essentially broken gameworld logic - particularly because those characters don't appear to do a goddamn thing, since they're always waiting for you the next time you show up at camp. The other problem is that this can reduce feelings of player agency and accomplishment; the player's achievement in levelling her own character is diminished when all other characters keep pace (apparently effortlessly).

And then there's the oft-remarked fact that levelling in RPGs is already ridiculously imbalanced in most cases, ludicrously greater and faster than even the most prodigious of "real-life" growth and advancement. I can almost buy this when I'm the son of a god (BG2/ToB), e.g., but then I see all of my (mostly non-divine) companions levelling at the same rate and achieving essentially the same power - becoming demigod-like forces to be reckoned with in the gameworld. Huh?

It isn't as much of an issue in some games. Take JE, for example: yes, your companions auto-level with you, but it doesn't feel like it makes a difference. You rapidly surpass them in combat effectiveness, so the system remains mostly unobtrusive and doesn't diminish your own sense of character advancement. FO2 also had an alternative system in which companions could level, but only a few times and with much less granularity than the player's character. So yes, systems can be designed wherein companions basically "keep pace" with you but don't obviously break the logic of the world.

Still, even when it's not obtrusive, I don't understand the "need" for balanced companions. Why doesn't Shandra start 10 levels behind you in NWN2, after all? Couldn't that create some interesting challenges with combat tactics and party balance? In other games, what would be the problem with being accompanied by a much stronger, older, more experienced character and learning from her - or guarding and mentoring a much weaker character throughout the story?
 

Jim Kata

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
2,602
Location
Nonsexual dungeon
Another issue with it is that it is fun (and more realistic) to play with characters of varying level. How does it make sense for all of your party and everyone you fight to be the exact same level. It also makes for some interesting choices - do I pick the level 5 guy who will easily get me through the starter dungeons or the level 1 guy who has much better stats and will be a better character in the long run?



The shandra thing was particularly annoying because I had thought I would be able to level her up in the way I wanted...but no, I ahve a semiretarded fighter who specializes in twohanded swords :roll:
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
That might have gotten in the way of NWN2's commercial payload of 3E rule porn.

The Bioware/JRPG pattern of selecting an active party from a larger roster is pretty silly anyway. Why don't I just bring all 15 sword guys I've run into with family problems or comedy mental illnesses? It's already a subgenre feature with a lot of stylized illogic, so what's a little more for gameplay?

Anyway, if you want to do training or player-absent side missions for "followers", you pretty well have to implement time in the gameworld, which makes a lot of things make sense right off.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Zomg said:
Anyway, if you want to do training or player-absent side missions for "followers", you pretty well have to implement time in the gameworld, which makes a lot of things make sense right off.

True. And making sense is a dangerous road to travel in current game design.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
It is also bad because it doesn't make sense for you to take companion fast as you waste xp points doing that. It depends on haw the game is structured in game where companions are just your mercenary having fixed level by them would work much better, then taking low level character for story reasons, but having it on so low level comparing to rest that he would be just a ballast. That also depend on system (haw much couple levels change). That is why I don't think that having story focus on your companions is good it limit design freedom or yours (if they are forced on you).
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Nicolai said:
Why have you forsaken us, Kraszu?

Hamachi? I had so problems whit pc and didn't feel like playing recently and I am sick now, so many shit things happen to me now, not good to live in badly designer reality.
 

Nicolai

DUMBFUCK
Joined
Mar 8, 2003
Messages
3,219
Location
Yonder
Sounds good. IRC in a few hours? You've got it.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom