CRPG Examples of When Balance Actually Worked?

[Chippy]

I'm getting ready to play PK again, and was looking at the animal companion stats. I thought the Russians would have sone done thing special with the bear, and they did (apparently) with this:

Spoiler

A scimitar that modifies their attack, or your attack, or whatever, because who gives a fuck - I'm not Drizzt

So wouldn't there be a case here for making an animal collar or some type of magic item that augments your companion in a manner of your choosing, because although I hate Sawyer balance, everyone just picks the Smilodon anyway; so wouldn't it be better if I could pick a flaming undead bear, or choose to ignore my wolf in favour of a dragonlike creature - and then you have the balance incorperated by the designers, but you get to tweak it a bit just short of powergaming.

In other words: balance is shit, and in this case didn't really work, as only giving you one or two pracitcal choices out of (however many pets there are) is just as shit.

Any examples of when Sawyerism actually worked?.

 

[aweigh]

elminage: gothic has fantastic balancing and a beautiful power curve. it's the kind of game balance that someone like Sawyer can only dream of being able to produce someday. genius itemization as well, probably the best i've ever seen.

 

[Tavernking]

pillars

 

[buffalo bill]

sixth circle of zerthimon

 

[Popiel]

Your mom.

 

[FreeKaner]

Balance in general is shit because this particular game is not balanced and there is a single powergaming choice that is better than all other options.

Extremely good analysis.

 

[Chippy]

Actually I just started this thread so that I could get a census on who all the Sawyer apologists were and excerise my newfound button powers with the 'up yours!' button.

...Problem is I can't find it/don't have access to it.

 

[FreeKaner]

Sawyer is a hack and a fraud. He can't even balance and has no idea about proper risk and reward mechanisms, he just streamlines from absolute basics.

 

[Rahdulan]

elminage: gothic has fantastic balancing and a beautiful power curve. it's the kind of game balance that someone like Sawyer can only dream of being able to produce someday. genius itemization as well, probably the best i've ever seen.

I think that's because it originates from a certain level of player competency where you're expected to have learned basic systems so you can actually appreciate finer ones that follow and build upon those. In contrast most games today begin by accepting players' incompetency and then designing everything to fit that mindset. Because of that you get players who just understand "green = good, bigger numbers = better" and never deviate past that with said games certainly making no effort to correct them. Basically, you get "Story mode" difficult level.

 

[Goromorg]

Underrail

 

[majorsoccer]

Arcanum

 

[aweigh]

I think that's because it originates from a certain level of player competency where you're expected to have learned basic systems so you can actually appreciate finer ones that follow and build upon those. In contrast most games today begin by accepting players' incompetency and then designing everything to fit that mindset. Because of that you get players who just understand "green = good, bigger numbers = better" and never deviate past that with said games certainly making no effort to correct them. Basically, you get "Story mode" difficult level.

I actually agree with this. Elminage (Gothic, specifically, but it applies as well to Original) does become more proportionally rewarding the more the player learns its inner workings; it's a big part of the reason it contains so much depth and is so incredibly rewarding. I remember still discovering new party strategies and build "meta" that were satisfying to use even after hundreds of hours spent playing the game; the power curve balancing and the itemization are key to this, as well as the skill system.

(A big reason this applies more to Gothic than to Original is because of Gothic's Ibag's Tower, which becomes its own ecosystem and forces you to reevaluate every single thing you've learned about the game before and place it in a new context).

 

[Black]

Arcanum

What
You mean the game with Harm, 70+ speed characters, pyrotechnic axe and dogmeat from hell?

 

[majorsoccer]

Arcanum

What
You mean the game with Harm, 70+ speed characters, pyrotechnic axe and dogmeat from hell?

then just don't use Harm, 70+ speed characters, pyrotechnic axe and dogmeat from hell.

 

[Achiman]

Binding of Isaac. No attempt at balance at all. You can be a golden god or a literal turd man. Perfect.

 

[Rahdulan]

Binding of Isaac. No attempt at balance at all. You can be a golden god or a literal turd man. Perfect.

Maybe, but then you've opened another can of worms - is sufficient RNG replacement for balance? Or excuse for lack thereof. Not to mention if you look at [modern] roguelikes you have clear attempts at "hedging your bets" as there are usually permanency systems implemented so players aren't entirely at game's mercy on each new run. From ToME and One Way Heroics with actual unlocks to Sword of the Stars being less egregious example where game simply memorizes your crafting recipes for future sessions.

 

[Achiman]

Binding of Isaac. No attempt at balance at all. You can be a golden god or a literal turd man. Perfect.

Maybe, but then you've opened another can of worms - is sufficient RNG replacement for balance? Or excuse for lack thereof. Not to mention if you look at [modern] roguelikes you have clear attempts at "hedging your bets" as there are usually permanency systems implemented so players aren't entirely at game's mercy on each new run. From ToME and One Way Heroics with actual unlocks to Sword of the Stars being less egregious example where game simply memorizes your crafting recipes for future sessions.

I'd prefer RNG-esus to an attempted perfect balance game any day.
Games that try and balance everything out in my opinion are ones that limit the player.
Diablo 3 is the example that springs to mind. No build is substantially different as they aren't allowed outside the cookie cutter leveling choices and tiny skill tree for each ability. Not even having character stat points is also decline. If you want to be a glass cannon that dies in 2 hits, that should be allowed.
More annoying and to do with balance is games that just have HP bloat bosses as some sort of balance mechanic. You have to stay alive long enough to whittle down some gigantic hp pool and usually they will have a cheap mechanic to fuck you over while you're trying to healspam out of it.

 

[a Goat]

Given the amount of moving parts in RPG's proper balance is bound to be hard, that being said some games have very obvious flaws that you can point to(see no scaling over 10 attribute in Fallouts, especially fucking up melee chars), and their existence is sometimes hard to comprehend.

 

[Black]

Devs should only be concerned with balance if their game is competitive in nature. RPGs are 99% single player games and computer doesn't give a fuck if anything's imba, min-maxed, op, up or anything else. If a game has any of these things you can just not use them unless you lack self-control.

 

[RaptorRex888]

Balance in a single player game is asinine. Obviously if a skill/item/whatever is monstrously destroying the game somehow then it should be fixed, but ultimately it's up to the player if they want to do it tough or cheese the fuck out of it. When no other players are affected apart from yourself, what exactly is being 'balanced'?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Sawyer is a hack and a fraud. He can't even balance and has no idea about proper risk and reward mechanisms, he just streamlines from absolute basics.

Sawyer's idea of balance is to take away all the cool stuff and replace it with banal shit boring mundane crap, so everything is equally shit. He started this way back in IWDs, all the cool sequencers, triggers , planetar summons and all the other "overpowered" but fun stuff of the BG games got scrapped and instead the game is all about stacking 2 dozen buffs from emotion: hope all the way to emotion: benis envy and large amounts of summon monster spells. Thus the game was improved.

Others are doing the same. In PF death ward no longer protects from death effects (not balanced enough?) instead you only get +4 on saves vs death. Same with remove fear (just +4 instead of immunity). Dat balance.

I blame wamen. Wamens got into gaming, everything turns to shit. Coincidence?

 

[rohand]

Underrail

I love Underrail but there are some really OP builds in there.

 

[octavius]

Sawyer is a hack and a fraud. He can't even balance and has no idea about proper risk and reward mechanisms, he just streamlines from absolute basics.

Sawyer's idea of balance is to take away all the cool stuff and replace it with banal shit boring mundane crap, so everything is equally shit. He started this way back in IWDs, all the cool sequencers, triggers , planetar summons and all the other "overpowered" but fun stuff of the BG games got scrapped and instead the game is all about stacking 2 dozen buffs from emotion: hope all the way to emotion: benis envy and large amounts of summon monster spells. Thus the game was improved.

Others are doing the same. In PF death ward no longer protects from death effects (not balanced enough?) instead you only get +4 on saves vs death. Same with remove fear (just +4 instead of immunity). Dat balance.

And yet IWD has War Chant of the Sith.

 

[mondblut]

genius itemization as well, probably the best i've ever seen.

You mean random shit drops that can be exchanged by the shopkeeper to other random shit? Wow.

I guess a lottery then makes "genius economics".