Daggerfall

OK, I see everybody here loves Daggerfall. Would anyone bother to explain to me how it was better that Morrowind, and of course Oblivion? Besides the size and number of quests, everyone knows about those.

And another thing - many things that you are complaining about in Oblivion were, somehow, in Daggerfall.
- The dynamic compass - OK, there wasn't one in Daggerfall. That's because you could fast travel to any goddamn dungeon or city on the map, instantly. No exploration whose loss you grieve.
- The unkillable Main Quest NPCs. May I remind you that you couldn't kill anyone in Daggerfall besides the people outside? The ones inside were invulnerable sprites. And the ones outside, there was absolutely no reason to kill, because theywere stupid clones. No personality which might convince you to kill them. Not even any phat lewt on them, they even disappeared when you killed them.
- The dull factions and quests in Oblivion. Well, at least, the quests will be more in depth (according to Emil too), than "<random greeting> go kill <random monster> and retrieve <random item> from <random location>. You have <random days> to do it. <random goodbye>"

But, tell me the things I asked for first as well, will you?

 

You've had this explained to you many times already, in other threads. You are wilfully ignoring all the information about Daggerfall already given to you, and spamming the place with another thread. You choose to ignore the many examples of Daggerfall features superior to Morrowind's. You refuse to try to understand that where Daggerfall fell short, it should have been improved on (which was the wish of its designers, like Ted Peterson). You keep ignoring the fact that no-one here says DF was the perfect game, or that it should simply be re-made.

You ought to be dumbfucked, illiterated, or even better - have your own new title, along the lines of 'annoying little kid who should be beaten soundly and kept away from the internet'.

 

*oblivionated

 

Exactly

 

Instead of relying on our opinion to form your own why don't you try something truely radical. Go and buy Daggerfall (You can still get it off e-Bay) and play it for yourself. Then form your own opinion about the differences between MW and DF.

 

I'm actually curious myself (and I'm not a sock puppet). I haven't seen a lot about DF, i'll go back through the forums and check, but if I recall correctly, a lot of the OP's questions are valid. I remember liking DF when I played it a long way back, but, while I remember it nostalgically, it doesn't seem like anything special right now.
I'm not trying to start a flame war, as I said, I did really like the game, but I'm curious about people's perceptions these days and the issues the OP raises.
any non-flame oriented comments (or is that not the way things work at the Codex)

 

Yes, you explained to me that the quests were better. I didn't agree. But, have it your way.
What else did you like about Daggerfall? In waht other ways, besides quests, was it superior to Morrowind?

I'm not ignoring it. I understand that you do not consider it the perfect game. But all of you are praising Daggerfall and bashing Morrowind. Why? Just becuase of the randomly generated quests?

 

No, they aren't. Allow me to illustrate:

There is a difference between a fast travel system which was never criticized here, btw, and an arrow pointing in the direction of quests' objects and "good stuff"

Again, that wasn't criticized as that's a standard feature in many RPGs. Instant reload was, but that's a different matter.

Factions and quests were less dull. We do not know what Oblivion quests are like, as few examples were given, and those weren't impressive, but MW quests sucked and that's a fact. They were far worse than DF quests. Random doesn't mean "sucks", there are many games like Gearhead, for example, that successfully use random events, quests and even storylines. All quests are about doing something: talking, killing, exploring, stealing, etc. It doesn't take much to program random quests based on those criteria.

Anyway, DF quests were much more interesting. Other than typical explore dungeons, there were protect a guild or a person quests, cast spells (something that actually make sense for mage guild members) of different levels, investigate divine manifestations for temple guilds, find stolen temple stuff, etc. There were a lot of different quest types and they supported different character types much better than what MW had to offer. The random nature of those quests supported role-playing and rewarded character specialization. For example, you really could play as a protector of temples and an investigator who recovers stolen temple holy objects and punishes desecrators. You could also decline quests that were less interesting to you or didn't fit your "profile". Main quests were hand-crafted and, again, were better and less linear than MW's main quests.

Other things of interest:
- atmosphere. One word: Vengaaance!
- character system (advantages & disadvantages) - one of the best systems ever
- skills (great alternative builds options)
- great dungeon design: walls to climb, pits to jump over, water to swim, etc
- climbing (deserves a special mention)
- witch covens, werewolves, vampires - all in one game
- horses & carriages
- banking system
- more monsters, better variety: Lich, Centaur, Daedra Seducer (very HAWT! ), fire daedra, dragonlong, giant spider, giant scorpion, giant, gargoyle, mummy, orcs variety (shaman, warlord, sergeant, regular), etc
- less linear main quest (link)
Etc

 

No, no there isn't.
What does the compass do? Point to "cool" locations like dungeons (although I'd find a temple much cooler) and to places of interest in quests. What did DF's fast travel system do? Instantly take you to dungeons (even those you have never visited) and quest locations. The same thing, basically, although Oblivion will actally have you walk around a bit, unlike Daggerfall.

 

Lumpy, if you want to argue for the sake of arguing, be my guest. You asked, I explained. If you didn't get the explanation, too bad.

 

I'm inclined to say that's actually not a completely invalid point.

 

Yep, Daggerfall's fast travel system and Oblivion's sound eerily similar. In Daggerfall you would actually be shown the exact quest location inside a dungeon once you got close enough for it to show on the 3d map.

 

Daggerfall was a 1996 game. Oblivion is going to be a 2006 game. There's a freakin' decade difference. Things that were allowed in Daggerfall wouldn't be appropriate now. Like exploration. In Daggerfall, it would take you fucking (real time) days if you wanted to walk on foot. Doing it any other way than having the locations automatically on your map from the start wouldn't be a viable option.

With fully interactive and huge diverse worlds that games can make now, adding in a compass that points out "cool locations" to you (i.e. anything besides a city or settlement) is actually DESTROYING gameplay! The game is meant to be explored! It's like if Tetris allowed you to move the piece around after it already reached the bottom (yes, this actually has been done). It would totally kill the meaning of the game. Most of the fun in Morrowind didn't derive from its shitty roleplaying techniques and bland quests, it came from exploration. It came from finding that new secret area. You didn't need a quest compass for that. Having a quest compass would have actually BROKEN that gameplay!

And it's going to break the gameplay in Oblivion. Hard. Sure, they're catering to the dimwitted and stupid Xbox crowd now, but are they really that evil as to completely abandon their fanbase who has followed them through such shit as Battlespire?

Why, for the love of God almighty, can't Bethesda include an option to turn the fucking GPS-system off? Are they just too stubborn?

 

@crpgnut

That's like push & pull. Both can do the same thing, but the approach is totally different. One's in your face, basically leading you. Another requires an action from you.

For example, in DF you could go to any place by visiting the map, but if you are walking/exploring and don't check your map every 5 minutes you could easily walk by something without noticing. That's impossible in Oblivion. Also, the vast number of places of interest in DF made hunting for every dungeon/crypt pointless as there were hundreds of them, if not thousands, and each was fucking huge. See the difference?

 

I thought the devs said you could turn the quest compass off and that it only pointed out quest locations, not secret locations. It would suck ass if that's not true anymore.

 

How else would you find a secret location? Duh!

 

Wrong. You WILL get lost. You WILL wander around aimlessly trying to find things. It's not like the compass points you to every last thing of interest in the game -- and often the markers aren't EXACLTLY on the thing you're looking for anyway. It is not as obtrusive or oppressive as you make it out to be. It's helpful, but it's not the hand-holding dumbing-down all-encompassing device you think it is.

 

Fair enough. One question though, one of the videos showed that the compass arrow pointed at the direction of the elven ruins way before it was visible to the player. That's what I was talking about. Am I mistaken?

 

Since when is being lost a great gameplay experience. I haven't played Daggerfall but getting lost in games would piss me off.

 

I like being lost because it adds the gameplay experience of finding my way.

 

Actually it doesn't. The pointer comes into view as the player turns towards the ruin, which at this point is already in view. It's impossible to determine the range of the compass from the video (I tried and couldn't at least). It DOES however show other "entrances" that are not in view.

 

I still prefer the "point it on the map" kind of hint and not the arrow.
The fast travel to location in DF worked like a charm, as it's all in your map so you already know where things are and there's no magical compass that directs you there.
Also, as said, it's a HUGE world and most of the people would get bored trying to explore every inch of it or try to make a region to region trip.
You want to go where? Oh, there? Ok... foot, horse or boat? Speed: recklessy? Sleep in inns or not? Etc...

1996 game people. It's still a winner.

 

Actually, you don't know where everything is at first in Daggerfall. In many cases you get locations to other dungeons as part of a quest reward or while exploring out-of-the-way spots underground. Furthermore, it's not immediately apparent which cities (other than Daggerfall itself) are going to be important; even the numerous capital cities are frequently irrelevant to the main plotline.

 

I think the whole compass issue would dissolve if they just allow us to set the range for the general "cool stuff" indicator. I might want to use it even, but I would like to be in control WHEN I start seeing stuff. For quest stuff its not an issue anyway, because it shows a quest you select, so you are in complete control there. I do like the feature that you can set your own compass waypoint - that is actually useful and kind of cool.

 

It's actually even easier than that GhanBuriGhan. All they need to do is provide a toggle to turn elements of the fucking thing off. You don't want shops pointed out - cool, turn that off. Don't want phat loot pointed out - cool, turn that off too.

But no, from the start this game was designed for the shit-brained minority who couldn't find Cosades so it never occured to them that there might be people who wanted to turn elements of the GPS system off so it wouldn't ruin their gaming experience - because, after all, everyone knows that everybody wants to play the game in exactly the same way.