Dark Souls is absolutely an RPG, explanation

[The_Mask]

I still fail to anticipate people's insults and dodge shitposts in time.
Maybe I should've gone for a high ignorance build - much higher resists.

There are several types of players:
1. the ones that rage because O&S is kicking their ass, meanwhile they can't dodge the Silver Knight with the spear along the way
2. the ones that block O&S with high stability shields
3. the ones that dodge their way through

and lastly the ones monocled: that get the Xanthous Set to +5, cast Iron Flesh twice and need no validation.

Spoiler

Which one are you?

 

[Nifft Batuff]

If you use a trainer you can finally see the RPG elements-

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Bester gets it.
All arguments against are evidence of crippling brain damage.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

This thread is like arguing over how many hairs must a man have left in order to be considered bald, or at what specific frequency does orange become yellow. Obviously the line in what makes an rpg is grey and some cases are more obvious than others. Autistically focusing on one aspect like "it requires reflexes" as a defeater of what makes an rpg, or equally retarded saying that something hyper specific like "stats" make an rpg, is to fundamentally misunderstand how complex categories function in a language. It is in aggregate of intent, mechanics, and atmosphere that something becomes more like an rpg or a shooter, and even then, the codextards like to pretend that categories must be mutually exclusive - hey guess what a film can be an action AND a comedy. Holy shit what a concept.

 

[Serus]

The third best RPG in their list is Baldur's Gate 2, guess that means it's not an RPG either.

Codex hate BDG 2.

Can you help me recall what place bg2 has in codex poll?
So much for Codex hating it.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Can you help me recall what place bg2 has in codex poll?
So much for Codex hating it.

I am the Codex.
BG2 is okay.

 

[aweigh]

it's more of an RPG than disco elysiwhatever.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I think that it is easy to demonstrate that it is an action game.

 

[thesheeep]

to fundamentally misunderstand how complex categories function in a language.

Categories are only complex if you are an idiot or a hippie.
A genre definition (or any definition for that matter) is useless if it cannot be applied objectively.

Something either is an RPG, or a hybrid of varying degrees, or not at all. And there are relatively precise measurements for this. It's really not that hard.

Anything else just leads to nonsense like "This feels like an RPG to me, so it is one" or "If it isn't fantasy, it's not an RPG" or other purely subjective nonsense.
Genre definitions don't change based on who uses them, or how they are used at a time, but based on logic and facts.
Nobody with their marbles intact gives a rats ass what is the "current" definition of X - the only thing that matters is what is the correct definition.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

to fundamentally misunderstand how complex categories function in a language.

Categories are only complex if you are an idiot or a hippie.
A genre definition (or any definition for that matter) is useless if it cannot be applied objectively.

Something either is an RPG, or a hybrid of varying degrees, or not at all. And there are relatively precise measurements for this. It's really not that hard.

Anything else just leads to nonsense like "This feels like an RPG to me, so it is one" or "If it isn't fantasy, it's not an RPG" or other purely subjective nonsense.
Genre definitions don't change based on who uses them, or how they are used at a time, but based on logic and facts.
Nobody with their marbles intact gives a rats ass what is the "current" definition of X - the only thing that matters is what is the correct definition.

Definitions exist as attempt to capture our subjective concepts as it changes through time. Arguing anything else is some galaxy brain bullshit and you know it.

 

[thesheeep]

Definitions exist as attempt to capture our subjective concepts as it changes through time.

So I guess the definition of the color black or what a car is or what the chemical element Hg is, are all just purely subjective and changing through time.
Yeah, this everything-is-subjective-idea makes perfect sense. Loving it.

Hippie confirmed. Sorry I attempted to use logic on you.
You can now go back and frolick in the forest, leaving the discussion to those who actually have an idea what they are talking about and an interest in getting anywhere with the discussion.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

Definitions exist as attempt to capture our subjective concepts as it changes through time.

So I guess the definition of the color black or what a car is or what the chemical element Hg is, are all just purely subjective and changing through time.
Yeah, this everything-is-subjective-idea makes perfect sense. Loving it.

Hippie confirmed. Sorry I attempted to use logic on you.
You can now go back and frolick in the forest, leaving the discussion to those who actually have an idea what they are talking about and an interest in getting anywhere with the discussion.

Logic and facts? You obviously have 0 academic background fuck off with that shit.

Yea color black has no precise definition. Which precise frequency does black become grey? Next.

Hg is precisely defined but that does not mean that there are no subjective definitions. Also, even if you want to do the chemistry bullshit as if it is related to much more subjective terms like RPG or Music, I can provide an example. What is water my friend? Did the first use of water define it as H20? Would water with some minerals not be watter anymore? How heterogeneous does water solution have to be before it stops being water and in what proportions?

The point isn't that all things are subjective but 1. the LINE between categories is often very subjective. and 2. Definitions are captured through what people mean by the term through time and incorporate changes. I,e it is us who inform the dictionary and not the other way around.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

In fact if you want to LARP knowing jack shit about this. Argue against something of substance. E.g

Quine's argument for ontological relativity is roughly as follows:

1. All ideas and perceptions concerning reality are given to our minds in terms of our own mental language.
2. Mental languages specify how objects in the world are to be constructed from our sense data.
3. Different mental languages will specify different ontologies (different objects existing in the world).
4. There is no way to perfectly translate between two different mental languages; there will always be several, consistent ways in which the terms in each language can be mapped onto the other.
5. Reality apart from our perceptions of it can be thought of as constituting a true, object language, that is, the language which specifies how things actually are.
6. There is no difference in translating between two mental languages and translating between the object language of reality and one's own mental language.
7. Therefore, just as there is no objective way of translating between two mental languages (no one-to-one mapping of terms in one to terms in the other) there is no way of objectively translating (or fitting) the true, object language of reality into our own mental language.
8. And therefore, there are many ontologies (possibly an infinite number) that can be consistently held to represent reality.

Actual facts and logic are a lot more difficult then some random ben shapiro youtube video and you retards would do us all a favor to stop larping as philosophers.

 

[cvv]

This thread is like arguing over how many hairs must a man have left in order to be considered bald, or at what specific frequency does orange become yellow.

This is way too reasonable for this thread. You obviously don't understand how a spergy mind works.

 

[barghwata]

This thread is like arguing over how many hairs must a man have left in order to be considered bald, or at what specific frequency does orange become yellow.

While i agree with what you're aiming to say, i just don't understand how you've come to the conclusion that this means that this thread is pointless.
Humans have always had an incessant need to categorize and define everything they observe, and while this can sometimes be difficult and even lead to awful results (sexism, racism, bigotry etc...) there's a reason why people always do this, and it's because it's practical, it gives our small, inflexible and fragile brains a chance to attempt to understand reality and learn how to deal with it.

You said it yourself, "it is us who inform the dictionary and not the other way around" and i think that's exactly what people in this thread are attempting to do; "RPG" is just a concept, it's not some easily observable phenomenon that you can study, so it is up to people to define its meaning and update that meaning according to how it changes through time and how RPG games evolve.

For me personally i think Dark Souls is obviously an Action/RPG hybrid since it incorporates elements that are generally associated with both genres, but some people disagree and that's fine, having debates about what defines an RPG is only natural in a forum called RPG Codex.

 

[thesheeep]

Yea color black has no precise definition. Which precise frequency does black become grey? Next.

You don't need a 100% precise definition to have a correct one.
If you show 100000 people a black photo, 100000 people will confirm that that's black. Nobody will go ahead and say "that's white, though" - assuming no blindness, etc.
As it was 2000 years ago, as it will be in 2000 years.

Hg is precisely defined but that does not mean that there are no subjective definitions.

That's right, and I'm not saying there are no subjective definitions. Or no definitions that can change over time. Pop music might be one of those.
But "RPG" is simply not one of them.
There are some very clear guidelines that define what is an RPG, what a hybrid, and what not at all. All of these guidelines can be checked very objectively.
Just like you could very objectively tell Death Metal from German Volksmusik by studying <insert music terminologies here, not my field>.

And just because a bunch of people with no knowledge of video games want to excuse their lack of knowledge with "but it's all subjective anyway!", doesn't magically make it true.

Yes, we do inform the dictionary. And we did inform it what an RPG is, quite some time ago, in the form of the first RPGs.
Some people having trouble remembering the definition doesn't mean it is suddenly wrong.

Argue against something of substance. E.g

... goes on to produce some of the most irrelevant bollocks in the history of mankind.

Muh academic background!
Who is larping some desperate humanities student looking for confirmation now?

 

[SkiNNyBane]

This thread is like arguing over how many hairs must a man have left in order to be considered bald, or at what specific frequency does orange become yellow.

While i agree with what you're aiming to say, i just don't understand how you've come to the conclusion that this means that this thread is pointless.
Humans have always had an incessant need to categorize and define everything they observe, and while this can sometimes be difficult and even lead to awful results (sexism, racism, bigotry etc...) there's a reason why people always do this, and it's because it's practical, it gives our small, inflexible and fragile brains a chance to attempt to understand reality and learn how to deal with it.

You said it yourself, "it is us who inform the dictionary and not the other way around" and i think that's exactly what people in this thread are attempting to do; "RPG" is just a concept, it's not some easily observable phenomenon that you can study, so it is up to people to define its meaning and update that meaning according to how it changes through time and how RPG games evolve.

For me personally i think Dark Souls is obviously an Action/RPG hybrid since it incorporates elements that are generally associated with both genres, but some people disagree and that's fine, having debates about what defines an RPG is only natural in a forum called RPG Codex.

I think discussion can be interesting to have as long as it doesn't get bogged down in pretentious specificity. I was reacting to specific people on the thread not the thread as a whole. I just worded it poorly.

 

[DalekFlay]

As someone with a useless English degree I can tell you it's very true that "definitions" are subjective and change over time. So does spelling, usage and a bunch of other shit. Words are not a science like math, like how psychology isn't the same as testing blood for a virus. Languages are constantly evolving things. This is probably even way more true for terms like "role-playing game" where they're relatively young concepts and have always historically been used in different ways (Final Fantasy vs. Dungeons and Dragons). This is why these debates are always pointless, there's nothing to actually debate. The definition of RPG is in your own head.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

... goes on to produce some of the most irrelevant bollocks in the history of mankind.
Muh academic background!
Who is larping some desperate humanities student looking for confirmation now?

I dunno dude I majored in Comp Sci. I didn't mean "humanities" specifically. I just mean that your take screams "i've never stepped in college or opened a book that isn't harry potter, but I watched some ben shapiro videos so I must be smart, and despite having never thought about this, the first bullshit that comes to my head must be true." Just fyi for the future. If you want people to ignore your takes just say "facts and logic" to label yourself as an imbecile. I know online you logic bros like to jerk yourselves off but IRL its equivalent to saying you didn't wash your hands after taking a shit during a handshake.

 

[Machocruz]

I agree, there is nothing to debate. You just ignore anyone who comes along with absurdities like "you play a role in every game, therefore every game is a RPG."

 

[thesheeep]

I agree, there is nothing to debate. You just ignore anyone who comes along with absurdities like "you play a role in every game, therefore every game is a RPG."

I truly wish I had not witnessed people ever say that unironically...

And then naturally, the likes of SkiNNyBane and friends came in to say their take is just as valid as a take that isn't completely braindead, cause "it's just words! Words change!".
Ten minutes later, we all held hands and sang Kumbaya.

The definition of RPG is in your own head.

Well, it's obviously not in yours.
Which makes one wonder what the hell you are doing in this thread.
You're clearly not here to discuss why DS is or isn't an RPG.

I just mean that your take screams "i've never stepped in college or opened a book that isn't harry potter, but I watched some ben shapiro videos so I must be smart, and despite having never thought about this, the first bullshit that comes to my head must be true."

Mention Ben Shapiro one more time and I might be bothered enough to look up who that actually is.
And in contrast to you, I have indeed thought about this for many, many years. Wee little me started out just like the next best idiot, thinking stats = RPG, but I imagine I came quite a bit since those early steps.
I didn't just read somewhere that some definitions might be subjective and applied that to all definitions I had no further knowledge or interest in.

. If you want people to ignore your takes just say "facts and logic" to label yourself as an imbecile.

Said everyone, ever, who hasn't been able to refute a single argument in the entire discussion.
You still completely failed to even address why my definition of RPG would be wrong, or what parts of it are not factual/logical.

 

[Machocruz]

I agree, there is nothing to debate. You just ignore anyone who comes along with absurdities like "you play a role in every game, therefore every game is a RPG."

I truly wish I had not witnessed people ever say that unironically...

And then naturally, the likes of SkiNNyBane and friends came in to say their take is just as valid as a take that isn't completely braindead, cause "it's just words! Words change!".
Ten minutes later, we all held hands and sang Kumbaya.

Here's the kicker: the people who say that are almost correct when it comes to some games. The character, not you, but the character(s) does play a role in some games.

But here's the other kicker: playing a role =/= role-playing....

 

[Jimmious]

Dark Souls is the Dark Souls of RPGs

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Doom 2016 is also a RPG.

 

[Harthwain]

There are two categories of people:

1) Those who think that Dark Souls is an action RPG.
1) Those who think that Dark Souls is an action game with RPG elements.

I am favoring the latter. Why? Because when I think of an RPG, I think less about the mechanics (leveling up, quests, etc.) and more about what these mechanics are supposed to accomplish. Together. Because to look at the RPG elements in isolation is not enough. They serve as a coherent framework for both the players and the MG to play the actual game.

Let's say the quest is "Bring me 100 gold before the forthnight!". The quest is there to give you context. A reason to do something. But that's it. What happens from that point on, how you accomplish the goal, is entirely up to you. Do you rob houses and steal from people at night? Or do you go to a dungeon, defeat its monsters and bring back the loot to sell in order to get the necessary sum?

Dark Souls is purely a combat-oriented game. There is literally nothing outside of combat. Moreover, you don't really have different ways of accomplishing your goal(s). You can change your armor, your weapon, etc. but it's still all about killing stuff with button pushes. Yes, in RPGs you also kill stuff (and there are whole books dedicated to combat, enemies, encounters, etc.), but the combat itself is but a part of the whole spectrum of potential interactions. And there are a lot of interactions possible outside of combat (between players themselves, between players and NPCs, the environment, etc.).

So to me it's all about how interactable the game is. Or, to say it differently: what you can do to accomplish the task you want to complete. And Dark Souls - as good as the game itself is, for what it is - doesn't offer much in this regard.