From Software Dark Souls PVP can suck my balls

[DragoFireheart]

You did it. Great job!

I'M A BIG KID NOW!

 

[chubs]

I have to admit, I so enjoy giant dads

 

[toroid]

People here make a lot of good points for why PVP in DS is not suckballs but my point was simply that it pisses me off when I'm trying to get through a level and get instakilled by some backstabbing faggot.

It pisses everybody off in the beginning; hopefully you'll learn to appreciate it though. One of the first lessons Dark Souls teaches you is that you are vulnerable and at a disadvantage, and you'll need to be cautious and thoughtful if you want to survive. If you're worried about losing lots of souls/humanity because of being invaded, then don't set yourself up for it by getting killed by him and leaving your bloodstain in a difficult place. Be prepared to run back towards the last bonfire and fight him there as soon as you see that you're being invaded. You're guaranteed to easily reach your bloodstain and you'll only lose that one single humanity. Don't worry about humanity, you'll have plenty... probably.. maybe. (no spoilers). Anyway, once you've kindled a bonfire and been invaded/murdered there's no need to regain humanity again until you want to kindle once more. Rest easy in hollow mode.

One of the later lessons Dark Souls teaches you is to take every advantage you can get to be an evil murderous bastard. PvP is unbalanced, evil has the upper hand, and the forces of good are in decline. This is just another expression of how bleak and hopeless Dark Souls' world is.

Also what Karellen said.

 

[WalmartJesus]

That's nothing.

Try PvPing a hacker faggot that can one shot curse you and respawn at a bonfire only to find your char has half HP/Egghead parasite/and all stats reset.

But that's a large chunk of Dark Soul's PvP unfortunately .....nothing you can really do other than to deal with it or stay Hollow.

 

[Random]

PvP is always in the invaders favor. Even with the ability to chug estus flasks you are still 90% of the time at a major disadvantage. Just be glad that there are no shit items like the Thief's Ring in Demon's Souls.

You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

 

[Hobo Elf]

PvP is always in the invaders favor. Even with the ability to chug estus flasks you are still 90% of the time at a major disadvantage. Just be glad that there are no shit items like the Thief's Ring in Demon's Souls.

You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

And that's still more than you do.

 

[WalmartJesus]

PvP is always in the invaders favor. Even with the ability to chug estus flasks you are still 90% of the time at a major disadvantage. Just be glad that there are no shit items like the Thief's Ring in Demon's Souls.

You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

He does have a point though. Enemies never attack invaders ....so, a Darkwraith that has enemy placement and the environment memorized can easily win. That's why most ganker pussies prefer to hang out in places like Darkroot instead of the Crystal Caves or Catacombs/Tomb of The Giants.

 

[Random]

And that's still more than you do.

There is a simple reason why invaders don't have the advantage over hosts. Hosts can summon allies (and have no reason not to if they're in human form and are online). Fighting a host is one thing, but fighting a host and his one or two butt buddies is nigh impossible to win, especially if they have powerful builds. Invaders get ganked all the time by hosts who know what they're doing. You would know this if you'd invaded anyone or just used the red soap stone at all.

Invaders only have an advantage over hosts because they don't aggro enemies - unfortunately, there's also nothing stopping a host from simply retreating from an area populated with enemies to a place that they've already cleared out, neutralizing that advantage. Invaders are no more of a threat to an experienced player than a common enemy most of the time. In fact, invaders are a lot of fun to fight, because they spice up the game while you're trudging through an area grinding for souls or materials.

 

[Random]

He does have a point though. Enemies never attack invaders ....so, a Darkwraith that has enemy placement and the environment memorized can easily win. That's why most ganker pussies prefer to hang out in places like Darkroot instead of the Crystal Caves or Catacombs/Tomb of The Giants.

It's a minor advantage at best, that can only be exploited against inexperienced players who don't know the enemy placements or haven't encountered certain enemies before, like the giant mushroom people and the giant cats in Darkroot Forest. Hosts quickly learn not to follow enemy phantoms deeper into levels, or carefully pick off the enemies from a distance with ranged weaponry while the Darkwraith is waiting for them to walk into their trap.

It's nothing compared to the advantage of summoning allied phantoms.

 

[Random]

Dark Souls PVP (in any respect other than griefing noobs) is utter dogshit, and this is coming from a massive Souls/Fromsoft fanboy.

First off: lag out the ass. You are basically playing with an after image of your opponent. And this shit gets abstract, too. At any moment the person you are fighting could have already buttfucked you 6 times, with you none the wiser. Secondly, you have to hope your opponent consents to play make believe and LARP that the game is balanced and restict your fight to using things that aren't game-breaking. Sadly this same ethic does not carry over to backstabbing, because I guess that would be too arbitrary. Backstabbing is so much better than everything else that all fights between competent players who actually want to win devolve into various ways to fuck with the shitty net-code to get behind your opponent. Even if somehow backstabs could be removed you would have to further agree on having no posie, because poise makes non-backstab centric fights a total slugfest. And you would still be dealing with horrible net-code.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Dark Souls PVP (in any respect other than griefing noobs) is utter dogshit, and this is coming from a massive Souls/Fromsoft fanboy.

First off: lag out the ass. You are basically playing with an after image of your opponent. And this shit gets abstract, too. At any moment the person you are fighting could have already buttfucked you 6 times, with you none the wiser. Secondly, you have to hope your opponent consents to play make believe and LARP that the game is balanced and restict your fight to using things that aren't game-breaking. Sadly this same ethic does not carry over to backstabbing, because I guess that would be too arbitrary. Backstabbing is so much better than everything else that all fights between competent players who actually want to win devolve into various ways to fuck with the shitty net-code to get behind your opponent. Even if somehow backstabs could be removed you would have to further agree on having no posie, because poise makes non-backstab centric fights a total slugfest. And you would still be dealing with horrible net-code.

 

[Random]

Lag is a circumstantial issue that - believe it or not - is not a universal problem, and in fact 95% of all online encounters I've had did not suffer from lag.

Complaining about poise is silly because its purpose IS to make killing people who are heavily armored difficult because they don't stagger.

The netcode isn't terrible. It works fine. Again, the vast majority of online gameplay does not suffer from problems. You can ask fucking anyone who actually plays online.

 

[toroid]

Enemies never attack invaders ..

Undead Rapport: Super Surprise Anti-Faggot Attack

 

[Hobo Elf]

And that's still more than you do.

There is a simple reason why invaders don't have the advantage over hosts. Hosts can summon allies (and have no reason not to if they're in human form and are online). Fighting a host is one thing, but fighting a host and his one or two butt buddies is nigh impossible to win, especially if they have powerful builds. Invaders get ganked all the time by hosts who know what they're doing. You would know this if you'd invaded anyone or just used the red soap stone at all.

Invaders only have an advantage over hosts because they don't aggro enemies - unfortunately, there's also nothing stopping a host from simply retreating from an area populated with enemies to a place that they've already cleared out, neutralizing that advantage. Invaders are no more of a threat to an experienced player than a common enemy most of the time. In fact, invaders are a lot of fun to fight, because they spice up the game while you're trudging through an area grinding for souls or materials.

Good PvPers aren't phased by the amount of enemies there are. I've seen invaders slice through people in such a way that it almost looked like it was a rehearsed dance. I was recently in a 2v2v1 scenario where the lone Darkwraith came out as the winner. It was beautiful. Having a large army of phantoms at your side most of the time isn't going to be beneficial to you simply because they aren't usually nearly as good a player as the invaders tend to be. It's far better than being alone, sure, but if they are incompetent at PvP then they are just going to get backstabbed to death pretty fast. The invader can dance around the phantoms and then just kill the host if he becomes cocky and lets out a perfect opening. It's another good tactic, especially against clueless people.

Invaders often have the edge on stats and equipment as well. Usual people build their characters however they want and upgrade their gear as they go, but an invader is built purely with the sole purpose of ending your life. They take any ace they can to have even a minor advantage over the other player.

Of course most of this comes crumbling down when lag hits you and you get backstabbed from the other side of Darkroot. Then it's just gay.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Enemies never attack invaders ..

Undead Rapport: Super Surprise Anti-Faggot Attack

Man, Red Rosie had made some of the most creative vids in all of DkS community. Still it hated her for being a ganker

 

[Random]

Good PvPers aren't phased by the amount of enemies there are. I've seen invaders slice through people in such a way that it almost looked like it was a rehearsed dance. I was recently in a 2v2v1 scenario where the lone Darkwraith came out as the winner. It was beautiful. Having a large army of phantoms at your side most of the time isn't going to be beneficial to you simply because they aren't usually nearly as good a player as the invaders tend to be. It's far better than being alone, sure, but if they are incompetent at PvP then they are just going to get backstabbed to death pretty fast. The invader can dance around the phantoms and then just kill the host if he becomes cocky and lets out a perfect opening. It's another good tactic, especially against clueless people.

Invaders often have the edge on stats and equipment as well. Usual people build their characters however they want and upgrade their gear as they go, but an invader is built purely with the sole purpose of ending your life. They take any ace they can to have even a minor advantage over the other player.

Of course most of this comes crumbling down when lag hits you and you get backstabbed from the other side of Darkroot. Then it's just gay.

You bring up a good point - even when the odds are stacked against you in any situation in DS, it's still possible to eek out a win through cleverness and sometimes just pure skill. Often, these kinds of unlikely victories are the ones that feel the best.

But the thing is, invaders are only an unfair threat to inexperienced players who - like you said - are unfamiliar with the competitive tactics in PvP like backstabbing and so on, and usually have less-than-optimal builds and equipment for their soul level. It's a similar learning curve to the PvE, in fact. It takes practice and effort to learn how to do well in PvP, and there's no better way to do it than to just do it.

I can't even count the number of times I've invaded only to get my ass handed to me because the host had a white phantom and they knew how to use teamwork against a black phantom. It's a bitch.

And yes, lag does exist from time to time, but it's usually at a steady level and you can adjust for latency. Usually. Godawful, backstabbed-from-the-other-side-of-the-level lag happens to everyone at some point.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Even if it had no lag and balanced gear/levels, the pvp in dark souls would still be fucking bullshit from glitches like the shit where you tap block so you don't actually suffer from the blocking animation, but you appear to from the other guy's point of view.

Reminds me of this shit more than anything:

 

[Karellen]

Good PvPers aren't phased by the amount of enemies there are. I've seen invaders slice through people in such a way that it almost looked like it was a rehearsed dance. I was recently in a 2v2v1 scenario where the lone Darkwraith came out as the winner. It was beautiful. Having a large army of phantoms at your side most of the time isn't going to be beneficial to you simply because they aren't usually nearly as good a player as the invaders tend to be. It's far better than being alone, sure, but if they are incompetent at PvP then they are just going to get backstabbed to death pretty fast. The invader can dance around the phantoms and then just kill the host if he becomes cocky and lets out a perfect opening. It's another good tactic, especially against clueless people.

Invaders often have the edge on stats and equipment as well. Usual people build their characters however they want and upgrade their gear as they go, but an invader is built purely with the sole purpose of ending your life. They take any ace they can to have even a minor advantage over the other player.

Of course most of this comes crumbling down when lag hits you and you get backstabbed from the other side of Darkroot. Then it's just gay.

Wow. Look, I see where you're coming from, but saying - or insinuating, rather - that "PvP is unbalanced in the hosts' disfavour because invaders are better players!" is the reason why tears are delicious. :D

It might seem that Darkwraiths have a categorical advantage in PvP, but honestly, it's only true in the early game. The reason for this gross imbalance is that you can only get a Red Eye Orb so late in the game that anyone who has one inevitably has access to vastly superior equipment than players in the early game, which makes Darkwraiths practically impossible to beat if they're using their best gear, no matter how many they're up against. I don't really like this, because it gives people the wrong idea about why invaders are scary. Honestly, I wish that Dark Souls II has some mechanic or other to scale invaders down when invading in the early areas, simply because the advantage in experience and skill should make Darkwraiths terrifying enough.

Be that as it may, have to say it's disingenuous to say that White Phantoms are somehow an insignificant advantage. They're only useless at the beginning, when hosts and allies of similar level have no weapons that can do adequate damage against invaders, but that playing field begins to level quickly as you progress and get better equipment. By Blighttown or Anor Londo at the latest, a host with two White Phantoms can give a decent fight to any typical Darkwraith just by ganging up on them. It's worth noting that matchmaking for Darkwraiths sets them up against foes that are on a higher level than they are, which is why people who invade normal players tend to stay on as low a level as possible to broaden the pool of people they can invade. Because of this, they don't get a major advantage from having a good build, since they simply don't have enough levels for it to make a huge difference - good builds are mainly used for dueling, which takes place at much higher levels. Meanwhile, hosts at all levels can use Estus to heal White Phantoms; if the invaders can't kill with one or two attacks, the host can simply heal his allies faster than the Darkwraith can do damage and win by attrition. For most of the game, both sides can have a fair shot.

So, it goes without saying that Darkwraiths are a terror for lone players unused to PvP, but aside of the ridiculous mechanical difference in the early game, that's exactly the way it's meant to be. But you should know that in the Dark Souls food chain, Darkwraiths are far below Darkmoon Blades and dedicated ganker teams, who can actually get mileage out of having high-level characters built for PvP. That's not to say that a decent invader couldn't defeat even a prepared ganker host with allies every now and then, with some combination of skill, luck and cheese. I myself (if I may say so) have beaten my share of ganker trios in full Havel's and danced the Channeler Dance upon their wretched corpses.



My point, though, is that for an invader that's a rare treat you get only rarely, after much toil and failure, but that's Dark Souls for you. No matter your playstyle (except ganking, I guess) you will eventually face odds grossly stacked against you, and often you lose. It's worth it, because wringing a victory out of a situation like that, from the greasy fingers of ganking, well-what-is-it-spamming scumbags, is one of the great pleasures of life.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I don't really understand the context for this stuff since I never played the games, but I don't get the reasoning for adding this kind of thing to mostly 1-player or coop games. There are all kinds of direct adversarial games to play that aren't weighed down by RPG bullshit like grinding gear or inventories full of healing potions or twinking, where one guy wins and one guy loses. And in those (e.g. a fighting game) the entire scope of game design is about the adversarial payoff. In this you have this sideline competition designed in a ramshackle way where you aren't supposed to care about it or put in a lot of effort... What's the attraction?

And what's the attraction if you just grind special moves and timing when playing adversarial games?

 

[Gozma]

Somatic although my myelin is getting too crusty for it sadly

I'd think you would be skeptical of this kind of Dark Souls/MMORPG adversarial/coop stuff, there is obviously an S&M social melonhead re: Cleve thing going on

 

[Servo]

simply because the advantage in experience and skill should make Darkwraiths terrifying enough... it goes without saying that Darkwraiths are a terror for lone players unused to PvP

I can vouch for that. I never got into PvP in Demon's Souls either so I never got used to invasions, never learned the tactics, and I feared and loathed invaders as long as I played the game. I guess that's the point though. I think people who complain about the PvP mechanics are mainly the ones who go looking for it, in which case maybe DS is not the right game for that.

Let me make sure I got you right though: If I am invaded, and I have not sinned, and I am not in Dark Anor Londo, and I am not in Darkroot Garden, and I did not touch a red soul sign, the invader must be a Darkwraith? Which means they will most likely have better equipment but lower stats than me. That would make sense because I can't remember the last time I was invaded by someone who wasn't wielding some kind of giant sword.

Also, apparently I need to become a Darkwraith.

 

[Servo]

Oh also I just figured out what indictments do. I should have been carrying one on me when I was in the Depths.

Who said DS obfuscates its mechanics?

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

Who said DS obfuscates its mechanics?

roguey?

 

[praetor]

i have over 600+hours online in ds and so far met like two cheaters. and thats only because of pc master race. you dont have fucking cheating scum on ps3/xbox.

plenty of cheating going on on xbawks, that's why ps3 is the far superior version (it also sports a far bigger community & player base). although since the dlc there surfaced some cheaters even on the ps3 (personally i never found any on the ps3, only on the master race)

i am also greatly disappointed the 1st response to this thread wasn't "what r u? casul?"

 

[praetor]

I can vouch for that. I never got into PvP in Demon's Souls either so I never got used to invasions, never learned the tactics, and I feared and loathed invaders as long as I played the game. I guess that's the point though. I think people who complain about the PvP mechanics are mainly the ones who go looking for it, in which case maybe DS is not the right game for that.

Let me make sure I got you right though: If I am invaded, and I have not sinned, and I am not in Dark Anor Londo, and I am not in Darkroot Garden, and I did not touch a red soul sign, the invader must be a Darkwraith? Which means they will most likely have better equipment but lower stats than me. That would make sense because I can't remember the last time I was invaded by someone who wasn't wielding some kind of giant sword.

Also, apparently I need to become a Darkwraith.

well, he doesn't have to be a Darkwraith per se. he can still use cracked red orbs and invade "under darkwraith rules" (i.e. invade hosts 10 or 10% or 10+10%, i forget, levels above him). "lower stats" are a relative concept. sure, he can be 5lvls below you but that could mean you, for example, you have 5more att than him, which won't mean much. although due to the broken matchmaking mechanics the difference can be much higher (i.e. a SL1 DW invading a SL120 host. the inverse can also be true for Darkmoons (DM rules for invasion are the same as DW, but "downwards"), but that big a disparity seems to be much, much rarer)

umm.. becoming a Darkwraith is one of the things that are well, obfuscated in case you don't know how, and/or don't want to consult a wiki for whatever reason, here are the spoilerified details:

Spoiler

hopefully you didn't defeat the 4kings yet. DO NOT TALK TO FRAMPT! (well, you can talk to him and stuff, just don't place the lordvessel after he asks you to. you can homeward bone to firelink or wherever, just don't go near that bonfire where he teleports you) now, after you beat O&S and get the lordvessel, defeat Sif, if you haven't, to get the ring, go to new londo, defeat 4kunts and have a chit chat with Kaathe and place the lordvessel. you rank up by giving him humanity, 10 will get you the red orb for unlimited invasions, 30 the dark set and sword. and he sells unlimited cracked red orbs so you can buy 198 and invade without being a DW