Deadfire dialogue check analysis

[Black Angel]

The fact that I can play as an Aumaua from the Deadfire Archipelago and get 269 unique dialogues throughout the game is cool as hell. Meaningfulness be damned.

You've earned your tag well, NPC #49217481789749136851838973824723847382782394

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Reactivity is great, but if it’s only cosmetic then you’re doing something wrong.

How many of Deadfire’s checks merely determine your mode of address? How many alter two words of dialogue? How many are still bugged? How many are redundant? I know there were many moments where I had four or five different checks available in a given dialogue node. I don't object to multiple dialogue solutions in principle—theoretically this should be great—but this is what I was complaining about in the other thread. If nearly every build can unlock nearly all of the content, what's the point of having checks in the first place? Sawyer has repeatedly talked about using this kind of thing to give players a chance to express themselves and I think that’s not enough. Expression < interaction.

It's not all shallow. Infiltrating the pirate fortress had some great checks. The quest to reconcile those two Valian families was terrific. But in general I think building in thousands of relatively trivial checks seems like a poor use of time. Maybe Deadfire’s story could've been better if the narrative designers weren't forced to waste their time making sure that your benevolence level had teensy tiny bits of reactivity all over the place.

Overall, there’s something to be said for “go big or go home.” Fallout is a totally different game if your PC has 2 INT versus 10 INT. There’s a systemic connection between all of those intelligence checks that ends up giving you a radically different experience. I think that’s much more engaging for the player than futzing around in the margins five thousand times like Deadfire does.

I don’t know what the right term is, but Deadfire’s approach feels cobbled together—aside from the factions—while Fallout’s approach feels coherent and programmatic.

Edit: I had some PS:T counterarguments lined up, but that just feels gauche now that MCA is in the thread.

 

[Safav Hamon]

How many of Deadfire’s checks merely determine your mode of address? How many alter two words of dialogue? How many are still bugged? How many are redundant? I know there were many moments where I had four or five different checks available in a given dialogue node.

I agree with you there. The lack of choices that affect gameplay is a step back from New Vegas and Tyranny. Still better than most games.

Edit: I had some PS:T counterarguments lined up, but that just feels gauche now that MCA is in the thread.

Nearly all of the checks in PS:T were cosmetic. The only non-cosmetic example I can remember is being able to join the Xaositects, which was pointless.

 

[Quillon]

The fact that I can play as an Aumaua from the Deadfire Archipelago and get 269 unique dialogues throughout the game is cool as hell. Meaningfulness be damned.

Compare that to a game like Skyrim, where your race gets brought up maybe 5-10 times throughout the entire game. Even if no one else appreciates it, I do.

Tis a ing act.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Gauche it is then. If you can only remember one non cosmetic attribute check from PS:T, you may want to consult a physician. Did you ever finish the game (if so, did you only play as a mage with maxed out mental stats)? There are some pretty unforgettable, plot critical attribute checks in the Fortress of Regrets. There are the Unbroken Circle checks that unlock spells and improved companion stats. One of the first conversations in the game lets you snap a man’s neck if you have enough Dexterity. You can talk a professor into erasing himself from existence. With the right build you can stick Morte back in the Pillar of Skulls in exchange for an answer to some crucial questions and then tear him back out; with the wrong build he stays in the pillar. You need to pass checks to pick up Fall-From-Grace and IIRC also Vhailor (whom you can convince to commit suicide if you’re wise and charismatic enough). Attribute and alignment checks unlock a host of permanent stat boosts for both TNO and some of his companions.

It’s hard for me to imagine someone playing the game and not remembering this iconic stuff.

tl;dr what can change the nature of a man? Planescape: Torment’s attribute checks.

FYI: the numbers you’re using for Deadfire’s checks are unfiltered, the ones you’re using for PS:T’s are filtered (there’s duplication in the Deadfire numbers but not the PS:T ones), so you’re comparing apples and oranges here.

Bonus fun fact - PS:T only has about 550 dialogue checks. 489 attribute checks, and 60 alignment checks.

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/64381/dialogs-stats-checks-analysis

Don't shoot the messenger, but Fallout 3 has over double the amount of dialogue checks than PS:T.

If you go through the dialogue files—presumably the same method used for Deadfire—you get much higher numbers:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/187975-planescape-torment/46571716

Stat checks:
Wis: 263
Int: 597
Cha: 452
Str: 81
Dex: 90
Con: 9

Now, the lower number is almost definitely more accurate, but it’s not actually comparable to the 5,000 odd unfiltered checks in Deadfire.

 

[Neanderthal]

Nearly all of the checks in PS:T were cosmetic. The only non-cosmetic example I can remember is being able to join the Xaositects, which was pointless.

Such as joining the cult of Aoscar and being mazed, replacing the Silent King and ending the game, discovering the secret of the Silent King and using it to destroy the Dead Nations or inform Many As One, making a person appear from your imagination, charming the secret of the Dead Nations from Stale Mary, enhancing Nordom, helping both Morte and Daakon reconcile with themselves, fast talking the Pillar of Skulls, arguing the Transcendent One into surrender, defeating three aspects of yourself and consuming them, betraying and infiltrating an Anarchist cell, enhancing Morte's profanity, testing Lothar and being destroyed, displeasing the Lady of Pain a second time and being flayed into non existence, dealing with Moridor's Box, letting a ghoulish Collector taste your flesh, learning pickpocketing through being a target of various rogues in the Hive and probably hundreds more that were purely cosmetic.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Now, the lower number is almost definitely more accurate, but it’s not actually comparable to the 5,000 odd unfiltered checks in Deadfire.

I've read the script and the number isn't far off.

It's actually closer to 8000 dialogue checks if you factor in imported save histories and the DLC.

 

[Safav Hamon]

The Xaoistects and Transendent One were the only non-cosmetic checks I remembered, but I do remember dozens of cosmetic checks that did nothing or granted minor XP bonuses.

If you really want to defend PS:T on that front, it's worth mentioning once again that Fallout 3 would still have it beaten in non-cosmetic dialogue checks. Not exactly a gold standard.

 

[Neanderthal]

It's worth mentioning once again that Fallout 3 would still have it beaten in non-cosmetic dialogue checks.

 

[Safav Hamon]

It's factual though. There are hundreds more skill checks in Fallout 3 that affect gameplay than in Planescape.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Let's also breakdown what the game actually reacts to in Planescape?

Class? No
Subclass? No
Race? No
Subrace? No
Culture? No
Background: No
Deity? No
Gender? No
Faction? No
How many skills are there in Deadfire? 16
How many are in Planescape? 0

You can't even create a character in Planescape! Any CRPG that doesn't let you create a character shouldn't even be considered a CRPG.

 

[Black Angel]

If you really want to defend PS:T on that front, it's worth mentioning once again that Fallout 3 would still have it beaten in non-cosmetic dialogue checks. Not exactly a gold standard.

You really hate PS:T, don't you?

Instead of boasting all these numbers, go ahead and compare the impact of the non-cosmetic checks mentioned by Neanderthal to those you think the most impactful in Deadfire.

Or, if that's difficult, go ahead and bring just any non-cosmetic checks that are impactful in Fallout 3. Wait, you can't, because the most impactful you can get from that piece of shit is this

Let's also breakdown what the game actually reacts to in Planescape?

Class? No
Subclass? No
Race? No
Subrace? No
Culture? No
Background: No
Deity: No
Gender? No
Faction? No
How many skills are there in Deadfire? 16
How many are in Planescape? 0

You can't even create a character in Planescape! Any RPG that doesn't let you create a character shouldn't even be considered an RPG.

But first, let's talk about what is an RPG.

On serious note, you CAN create a character, it's just not the traditional method of character creation. All you can do is make a character with different combination of STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA, and yet, the game reacted so differently according to how many points you put into each of the stats.

 

[Sykar]

 

[Safav Hamon]

Or, if that's difficult, go ahead and bring just any non-cosmetic checks that are impactful in Fallout 3. Wait, you can't, because the most impactful you can get from that piece of shit is this

There's a skill check in that conversation that allows you to skip an entire main quest.

On serious note, you CAN create a character, it's just not the traditional method of character creation. All you can do is make a character with different combination of STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA, and yet, the game reacted so differently according to how many points you put into each of the stats.

You can pass 90% of the attribute checks in PS:T with one build.

You have to gimp your strength, dexterity, and constitution, but the game's so easy it doesn't matter.

 

[Risewild]

It's factual though. There are hundreds more skill checks in Fallout 3 that affect gameplay than in Planescape.

Could you provide a source? Last time I checked skill checks in Fallout 3 (was a comparison between FNV and FO3 skill checks), it didn't even had 2 hundred checks:

1. Fallout New Vegas also use your character's skills way more than Fallout 3 does:

• Fallout New Vegas uses Barter checks in 40 different places (dialogue or quests), in contrast Fallout 3 uses Barter checks 6 times.
• Fallout New Vegas uses Explosives checks in 14 different places, in contrast Fallout 3 uses Explosives checks in 3 different places.
• Fallout New Vegas uses Guns checks in 6 different places, Fallout 3 doesn't use Small Guns of Big Guns in any checks.
  
• Fallout New Vegas uses Lockpick checks in 2 different places, while Fallout 3 doesn't use any lockpick check.
• Fallout New Vegas uses Medicine checks in 18 different places, Fallout 3 uses Medicine checks 7 times.
• Fallout New Vegas uses Repair checks in 16 different places, Fallout 3 uses Repair checks 12 times.
• Fallout New Vegas uses Science checks in 21 different places, Fallout 3 uses Science checks 8 times.
• Fallout New Vegas uses Speech checks in 77 different places, Fallout 3 uses Speech checks 122 times.
  
• Fallout New Vegas uses Survival checks 10+ times (I can't remember how many the game uses in dialogue with Ulysses), Fallout 3 doesn't have Survival.

All the other skills I didn't mentioned means that there are no skill checks in either game.

The big tragedy of Skill checks in Fallout 3 is that Speech is used a lot (even more than Fallout New Vegas), but since it is a % chance, most players will not invest in Speech or Charisma, because they can still pass those checks even with base skill (not to mention Skill Bobblehead, Apparel giving Charisma and/or Speech, drink alcoholic drinks and pop a chem).

So how does Fallout 3 has "hundreds more skill checks in Fallout 3 that affect gameplay than in Planescape" when it doesn't even has hundreds of skill checks (it has 158 skill checks in total)?

 

[Safav Hamon]

I'll repeat that. You can pass 86% of the attribute checks in PS:T just by maxing Wis, Int, and CHA and getting a few bonus points in STR and CON

So the character creation process is almost entirely meaningless and redundant, because you can pass the vast majority of attribute checks with a single build.

 

[Safav Hamon]

In Deadfire, it would take you upwards of 30-40 characters to see all of the reactive dialogue in the game.

In Planescape, it only takes two playthroughs to be able to pass every attribute check in the game.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Let's also breakdown what the game actually reacts to in Planescape?

Class? No
Subclass? No
Race? No
Subrace? No
Culture? No
Background: No
Deity? No
Gender? No
Faction? No
How many skills are there in Deadfire? 16
How many are in Planescape? 0

You can't even create a character in Planescape! Any CRPG that doesn't let you create a character shouldn't even be considered a CRPG.

But again you are massively overstating your case and in the process saying things that are false. There are class checks and faction checks (dustmen, godsmen, sensates) and alignment checks and a few thief skill checks and even a handful of fire resistance checks, which you would know if you’d read the post you linked to. There are even class specialization checks—you get specialization the first time you hit levels 7 and 12.

I sympathize with your desire to slaughter sacred cows, but you’re playing fast and loose with the facts.

And yes, if you metagame you can pass the vast majority of checks. This is why I have repeatedly said that metagaming ruins PS:T for new players. Also, I’m not sure how unusual this is. Seeing as Deadfire lets you respec your skills, you can pass the vast bulk of its non cosmetic skill checks with metagame knowledge, too.

In Deadfire, it would take you upwards of 30-40 characters to see all of the reactive dialogue in the game.

In Planescape, it only takes two playthroughs to be able to pass every attribute check in the game (which is all it has besides 60 alignment checks)

But those differences in Deadfire would mostly be so minimal as to be almost beneath notice.

 

[Safav Hamon]

But those differences in Deadfire would mostly be so minimal as to be almost beneath notice.

As they are in Planescape, as the vast majority of those 489 checks are cosmetic.

In Deadfire, you frequently use your attributes and skills to solve quests and avoid potential combat encounters.

 

[Black Angel]

There's a skill check in that conversation that allows you to skip an entire main quest.

Mm-hmm. And then? And then?

You can pass 90% of the attribute checks in PS:T with one build.

And why, pray tell me, that this is a bad thing? It's not like a first-timer would be able to do exactly this.

I'll repeat that. You can pass 86% of the attribute checks in PS:T just by maxing Wis, Int, and CHA and getting a few bonus points in STR and CON

So the character creation process is almost entirely meaningless and redundant, because you can pass the vast majority of attribute checks with a single build.

And suddenly, "If you really want to defend PS:T on that front, it's worth mentioning once again that Fallout 3 would still have it beaten in non-cosmetic dialogue checks. Not exactly a gold standard." and even "It's factual though. There are hundreds more skill checks in Fallout 3 that affect gameplay than in Planescape." is not his arguments anymore

But those differences in Deadfire would mostly be so minimal as to be almost beneath notice.

As they are in Planescape.

In Deadfire, you have many complex quests with multiple approaches and solutions based on your skills.

What a selective counter-argument, nicely done sir

You forgot to properly reply to this

But again you are massively overstating your case and in the process saying things that are false. There are class checks and faction checks (dustmen, godsmen, sensates) and alignment checks and a few thief skill checks and even a handful of fire resistance checks, which you would know if you’d read the post you linked to. There are even class specialization checks—you get specialization the first time you hit levels 7 and 12.

I sympathize with your desire to slaughter sacred cows, but you’re playing fast and loose with the facts.

And yes, if you metagame you can pass the vast majority of checks. This is why I have repeatedly said that metagaming ruins PS:T for new players. Also, I’m not sure how unusual this is. Seeing as Deadfire lets you respec your skills, you can pass the vast bulk of its non cosmetic skill checks with metagame knowledge, too.

And even this

Such as joining the cult of Aoscar and being mazed, replacing the Silent King and ending the game, discovering the secret of the Silent King and using it to destroy the Dead Nations or inform Many As One, making a person appear from your imagination, charming the secret of the Dead Nations from Stale Mary, enhancing Nordom, helping both Morte and Daakon reconcile with themselves, fast talking the Pillar of Skulls, arguing the Transcendent One into surrender, defeating three aspects of yourself and consuming them, betraying and infiltrating an Anarchist cell, enhancing Morte's profanity, testing Lothar and being destroyed, displeasing the Lady of Pain a second time and being flayed into non existence, dealing with Moridor's Box, letting a ghoulish Collector taste your flesh, learning pickpocketing through being a target of various rogues in the Hive and probably hundreds more that were purely cosmetic.

How many of the 945 skill checks in Deadfire are cosmetic?

I don't know, you tell me.

Not many.

That's not how it works.

 

[Quillon]

How many of the 945 skill checks in Deadfire are cosmetic? Not many.

In Planescape, there aren't even skill checks.

Double posting + talking to yourself. Go to sleep.

 

[Safav Hamon]

There's a skill check in that conversation that allows you to skip an entire main quest.

Mm-hmm. And then? And then?

Skill checks that give you unique equipment. Skill checks that allow you to solve quests peacefully.

My favorite is the Big Town quest, where your skill checks can determine how the town is defended.

You can pass 90% of the attribute checks in PS:T with one build.

And why, pray tell me, that this is a bad thing? It's not like a first-timer would be able to do exactly this.

I did on my first playthrough when I maxed wisdom, intelligence, and charisma.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

First, you hate PS:T because you metagamed it as you illustrate above. That was a mistake, but it’s not the typical experience.

But those differences in Deadfire would mostly be so minimal as to be almost beneath notice.

As they are in Planescape.

In Deadfire, you have many complex quests with multiple approaches and solutions based on your skills.

You keep asserting things without any evidence, and then the evidence you do cite turns out to be questionable, like Fallout 3’s hundreds of skill checks.

There are tons of non cosmetic checks in Planescape. Some of us have listed several of them. You’ve not addressed this at all.

And there is only one quest in Deadfire that’s like Fort Deadlight. I wish there were more but even the gullett stuff doesn’t come close.

How many of the 945 skill checks in Deadfire are cosmetic? Not many.

False! Mostly they open up an extra line or two of dialogue (this was very disappointing to me so it sticks in my memory). In my experience, the times they had an impact on quest outcomes were a minority.

 

[Safav Hamon]

I was trying to research Fallout 3 dialogue checks again. There are close to 200 skill checks, and a couple hundred more other reactive dialogues.

So my statement about there being hundreds more skill checks was an exaggeration. I still maintain that there are more gameplay affecting skill checks than PS:T.

 

[Safav Hamon]

First, you hate PS:T because you metagamed it as you illustrate above. That was a mistake, but it’s not the typical experience.

I didn't metagame it. All I knew at the time was that it was easy, so I maxed WIS and CHA. INT because I was a mage.

Having three attributes represent over 80% of checks is bad design.

And there is only one quest in Deadfire that’s like Fort Deadlight. I wish there were more but even the gullett stuff doesn’t come close.

Only one quest with that level of complexity, but many sidequests with multiple solutions and various skill checks.

For example, the quest to get medicine in the black market has over 14 different solutions.

False! Mostly they open up an extra line or two of dialogue (this was very disappointing to me so it sticks in my memory). In my experience, the times they had an impact on quest outcomes were a minority.

It's pointless to argue without data, but I remember only about 15-20 skill checks that didn't have any gameplay utility. Hundreds that did.