Decline of the Codex: Skyrim has Oblivion's level scaling

[Stakhanov]

The level scaling is toned down, which is immediately apparent to anyone who has played Skyrim. Some enemies are vastly weaker and others stronger, and they don't automatically get expensive equipment once you hit a certain level. If you do any exploring at all you can routinely find enemies that will destroy you, especially at lower level. It is still a substantial flaw that dragons, loot, quest rewards and so on scale, but it is not as pervasive. Why not focus on the increasing lack of differentiation between playstyles, the loss of interesting options such as spell creation, and the questlines that involve almost nothing but killing even for the Mages and Thieves guild? I'd say if people are enjoying Skyrim it is because the level scaling does less to get in the way of the sense of progression, the level treadmilling being one of the main reasons for hating Oblivion.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It's cool now to hate Skyway, I see? OMG ITS SKYWAY WHATEVER HE SAIS SUCKS BECAUZ HE DOESN"T LIEK MY FAVORIET GAEM.

But, hey, apparently it comes from the same shitstain cocksuckers who think that BLOBERT is like totally deep man.. I mean.. he says stuff like "why u play if u don't like" or "you hated it then but you like it now". How deep is that, man? How deep, I ask you? And parodying the Codex? Fucking brilliant. And deep. So deep.

Talk about pent-up.

 

[Wunderpurps]

Wait.. what? BLOBERT realizes he is parodying the Codex? Clever fella, that one, being able to tell what he's doing.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I PARADE THE CODEX CUZ I GOT PRIDE BRO LOLOL

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

I can't say if the level scaling is any different, I didn't play Oblivion for that long because it was fucking boring, there wasn't kick-ass gameplay like what you would have in a decent action game or a strategy game, and the atmosphere was lacking. It didn't draw me in at any point. Skyrim does, by the merits of it's atmosphere and the viking setting. The gameplay is still... Well...

What I can say is that there's some challenge in Skyrim, but it's not fair challenge. You have to abuse the flaws at every turn to win against the enemies that do five times as much damage as you do (example : some mage bitch shoots me with some lightning rod, I die instantly what with my 190 HP. When I hit & run chip damage her to death - which takes something like twenty sneak attack hits from my archery skill 60 - I get the rod and I see it deals 40 damage. 'k.). Yet I play at the highest difficulty because searching for glitched and stupid ways to kill the overpowering enemies (kiting a dragon in to a giant camp, then drinking invisibility potions and taking cover while the giants kill the dragon, or running around a table shooting fire while a bandit is trying to reach you with his 1hitko sword) is sort of like gameplay. Then again it reminds me of Dragon Age and having to kite some fucking peasants. At least here they don't regenerate to full health the instant they disengage.

There's not much to the loot except tedium, at this point I only care about the weight to value ratio of the items. The magic items are simply never good, the best one I have found is some heavy mask that gives +10 to speech and 20% better prices. And I'm level 20 or so. All other armor I wear is mundane because all the magic armor is always some shit with low armor value and the enchantments themselves are useless so I don't bother adding them to my armor. I also got a mask from some dragon priest, the killing of which took seven tries abusing the companion's immortality, the priest's tendency to get stuck on a brazier and stunlocking it with a bow when it's near death. Anyway, what could such an item give, I mean it was worn by a pretty powerful lich? -20 to prices and underwater breath which I could do anyway as a lizardman and which has been entirely useless since there are no worthwhile underwater secrets... And what the fuck does the lich do with that ability? Do they breathe? In that coffin where he was in? Man, I wish I was playing Morrowind instead, when I was level 20 in that game I had a ring that allowed infinite levitation and other stuff along those lines.

I'm just saying. Finding +15% this and that isn't exciting, I mean magical items shouldn't be just some lame numbers but stuff like a ring that turns you invisible or a sword that glows when orcs are near... But finding +15% to bullshit is just lame.

At this point I also have the vampirism at the maximum level, and it makes everybody attack me. Exactly how they know I'm a vampire when my character is a black-skinned lizard and has full body armor coverage? Why do they attack me anyway if I don't ever actually have to drink blood? Oh whatever, I just wanted to know what the powers are but I forgot that this game doesn't have attributes such as strength so I should have known they are lame. The invisibility isn't invisibility at all, everybody still detects you almost instantly so you can't sneak around in villages (a thought occurs that maybe they hear me as I have heavy armour but I assumed that's not the case since how that bucket trick works and how enemies don't usually detect me. Anyway I don't know how invisibility works or how anything indeed works since it's nowhere explained.)
So a problem is, how can I get to drink blood so I can talk to everybody again (and I assume they don't remember I'm a vampire because why would they and I haven't seen those bounty messages when I have killed people in vampire war mode)? Everybody attack me on sight and my powers of stealth do jack shit. I tried to sneak on some hunters but a fucking dragon attacked which woke up the hunters. I can't drink from fresh corpses or grapple somebody and drink or anything I can think of that would make sense, only sleeping living people. Huh. Maybe I can drink from my companion, if I can get her to sleep somehow.

Anyway, back to track. Level-scaling. Well for one thing I remember Oblivion had things like some wildlife disappearing completely in favour of new, more dangerous wildlife, and bandits in the end carrying so expensive equipment they could live as kings. In Skyrim I still run into ordinary wolves and such, and the one-hit kill bandits which still aren't everywhere carry completely shit equipment. Indeed Skyrim made me post that thread about Levels and HP, both of which I have begun to think suck in this style of a game. Level scaling is just a part of a bigger problem.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS TRIPLE POST SORRY

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS I LOVE 2 HATE SKYWAY

TWO CHOICES

HE IS THE MOST INTELLIGENT MEMBER OF THE CODEX AND HIS TROLLING SCHEME STILL WORKS WONDERS

HE REALLY IS A SORT OF ABOVE AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE INDIVIDUAL WITH A VERY HIGH OPINION OF HIMSELF AND HIS INTELLECT WHICH ENDS UP AVERAGING OUT AS SOMEONE WITH THE JUDGEMENT OF A DRUNKEN DOWNS SYNDROME PERSON

THE MOST USELESS PEOPLE I HAVE KNOWN IN MY LIFE ARE THOSE THAT ARE JUST SORTAABOVE AVERAGE SMART BUT THINK THAT THEY ARE REALLY SMART AND THAT MAKES THEM UNABLE TO LEARN FROM EXPERIENCE OR MISTAKES JUST EFFECIENTLY PROCESS WHATEVER FEEDS THERE EGO THE BEST SURE THEY CAN PUT UP A LOGICAL SOUNDING ARGUMENT THAT UNFORTUNAATELY HAS NO BASIS IN REALITY

LOLLOLOL PLEASE BE THE TROLL I LOVE YOU TOO MUCH

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS AND TO BE VERY SERUOUS THE MAIN REASON SKYWAYS SUCKS IS BECAUSE HE PROVIDES ZERO POSITIVE CONTENT TO THE RPG FORUM

THAT IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THIS FORUM IS THAT THE ACCEPTANCE OF CRITICISM IS SEEN AS A CARTE BLANCHE TO RIP APART EVERYTHING

BROS CRITISIZE EVERYTHING WITHOUT ADDING ANY POSITIVE CONTENT ABOUT THINGS THEY MAY HAVE SEEN AND LIKED OR NEW THINGS OTHER BROS MIGHT APRRECIATE

THE REASON BEING IS THAT IT IS MUCH EASIER TO BE COMPLETELY NEGATIVE AND FEIGN INTELLIGENCE THAN IT IS TO ACTUALLY PRESENT A BALANCED INTELLIGENT OPINION ON SOMETHING

THE BEGINNING TOPIC COULD EASILY BE PARAPHRASED AS SKYRIM SUCKS LIKE OBLIVION AND YOU ARE ALL FAGS

 

[halflingbarbarian]

Edit: This is directed at the post before BLOBERT's outburst.

Gameplay is indeed lacking, I agree, because if they wanted to cut down on traditional RPG statistics based play then they should make up for it with more visceral action in combat.

However, your main underlying complaint, which I've seen not just from you, but a general sentiment from some other posts on the same subject, is that enemies 1-2 shot you. It has nothing to do with level-scale system, or badly balanced design, if you would consider the possibility that the particular enemy that is 1-2 shotting you isn't meant to be approached at your level?

People complain that a level-scale system streamlines all challenge to your abilities, and is ultimately boring (I can complete MQ at lvl 1 whoopideedoo). But at Master difficulty in Skyrim, some enemies suddenly became as you mentioned, unkillable without exploits. Just leave, and come back later when you are stronger? Isn't this what is supposed to be the opposite end of level-scale? All I'm saying is, the game does lull you into wanting to clear every possible dungeon you come across, etc., as it is the TES formula for a while now (now and then in Morrowind, all the time in Oblivion). This is basically back to the Daggerfall formula of 'shit I just entered a dungeon full of liches at level 8, let's high-tail it out of here'. Isn't that better?

Hopefully I didn't misinterpret your post.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS TOTALLY SORRY DIDNT MEAN TO POST THREE TIMES IN A ROW I GET DRUNK AND FORGET I AM PRETTY WASTED RIGHT NOW

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Isn't that an exploit too, or at least was in Fallout 3? Running everywhere on level 1, therefore locking their levels and then go grind? Oh but anyway I resent the idea that I'm not strong enough "level" and should instead go grind some more. There should be a strategy on how you deal with an encounter, or you should be able to clear it with pure skill, but not simple "this dude has 3000 hitpoints, I'm sorry, you have to go grind somewhere and then come back because his skin is immune to your two-handed axe". They should have powerful abilities and equipment which you counter with powerful abilities, equipment and skill of your own, but fuck hit points and levels.

Edit : which is why I said what Skyrim has resembles gameplay. Doing hit & run on the powerful mage is... well it's hit and run but it works because the AI doesn't chase you, not because, say, you have some ability that lets you disappear. You just have a few short corridors.

 

[Shannow]

I'm with FtR in this. None of you (even the few who actually had something to say) really bothered countering to skyway's points.
It was either:
"It's skyway, he's wrong, no need to take him seriously ROFLcopter."
,
"Longwinded post about how they like Skrym despite skyway having a point."
and
"Yeah, he's right, but this here is worse than the level scaling..."

Now, skyway is certainly not above making shit up, but (not having played Skrym myself) I have yet to see a single post ITT that counters his. The opposite is true, Gord confirmed some of the shittiness of the level scaling in that other long-ass Skrym-thread. And frankly, that makes the "It's skyway, he's wrong, no need to take him seriously ROFLcopter."-faction ITT look very derp...

 

[King Crispy]

First of all, Skyway is assuming. He states that it all makes sense now, but he doesn't know for sure that all quest-related content in Skyrim is level scaled the same way as it was in Oblivion.

Even if there were some level scaling being done, which I don't think anyone including Bethesda has ever said wouldn't be, it's not being done nearly as transparently as in Oblivion and Skyway is talking out his ass regarding beating a dragon with his level 3 mage with a battle axe, UNLESS he's playing at Pussy difficulty level, and I doubt it's as easy as he's saying it is even if you can do that. I took the first one on at about the same level on Expert and I had to make liberal use of cover and arrows to take the thing down.

You know it and I know it: Skyway's just up to his usual tricks.

 

[BLOBERT]

BRO IN TERMS OF FACTUAL CONTENT SKYWAYS IS THE LEAST RELIABLE POSTER ON THE BOARD

HE TROLLS PRETTY GOOD

BRO LETS SAY YOU WANTED TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE WORLD

SKYWAYS POSTS ARE THE EQUIVALENT OF THE MOVIE THEATER THEY ARE ENTERTAINING AND CONTAIN SOME SMALL BASIS OF REALITY BUT ARE PRIMARILY FANTASY

 

[Wunderpurps]

First of all, Skyway is assuming. He states that it all makes sense now, but he doesn't know for sure that all quest-related content in Skyrim is level scaled the same way as it was in Oblivion.

I hate to correct you cause you're a true bro and all, but I never played skyrim and know this is true since that's what Bethesda says.

The one hit kills do seem very suspicious so it sounds very much like skyway is correct. But even a shitty hack like that is a good step up from being able to complete the game at level 1.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

First of all, Skyway is assuming. He states that it all makes sense now, but he doesn't know for sure that all quest-related content in Skyrim is level scaled the same way as it was in Oblivion.

I hate to correct you cause you're a true bro and all, but I never played skyrim and know this is true since that's what Bethesda says.

The one hit kills do seem very suspicious so it sounds very much like skyway is correct. But even a shitty hack like that is a good step up from being able to complete the game at level 1.

So what is the best-scenario alternative of a one-hit kill, when trying depict an enemy that is way overpowered compared to your current level/abilities? And any examples from some good rpgs that had something close to this alternative, instead of the 'one-hit kill hack'?

 

[Wunderpurps]

First of all, Skyway is assuming. He states that it all makes sense now, but he doesn't know for sure that all quest-related content in Skyrim is level scaled the same way as it was in Oblivion.

I hate to correct you cause you're a true bro and all, but I never played skyrim and know this is true since that's what Bethesda says.

The one hit kills do seem very suspicious so it sounds very much like skyway is correct. But even a shitty hack like that is a good step up from being able to complete the game at level 1.

So what is the best-scenario alternative of a one-hit kill, when trying depict an enemy that is way overpowered compared to your current level/abilities? And any examples from some good rpgs that had something close to this alternative, instead of the 'one-hit kill hack'?

I don't think you get what's going on. The enemy does a level check and if you are below level x you die. That has to be what happens because even if you don't select health at all and then go back to the same area once you get to a certain level it no longer one hit kills you.

 

[Bluebottle]

There are differences between the two, subtle and somewhat difficult to spot without digging into the actual numbers, but from playing a couple of characters to about level 25, I think I've got the overall technique they've used.

In oblivion almost all things were level scaled, from the wolves you meet on the road, through the main-quest opponents, to the side and guild quest mobs. To find anything that wasn't really level scaled you had to be fairly lucky. Rare encounters, like Umbra (who I stumbled upon on my first play through at level 3, and coloured my perception of the level scaling for some time) or the occasional quest to the far reaches of the map were the somewhat solitary examples.

Skyrim takes a similar, but less drastic approach. A lot of the main quest opponents are level scaled (dragons, most notably), and many bandits still are, still to a lesser extent than Oblivion, but the side quests are often not, nor is much of the random wildlife. Popping into a random cave at level 8 is still likely to see you getting your face ripped off by an Ice Troll. Heck, the Grey-Beards, as an offshoot of the main-quest, sent me to a barrow at level 15 to face off one of those lich dragon lord things, against which I had no chance.

Yes, it is still there, and it still is far from ideal - hitting specific levels still gets you a jarring sudden increase in difficulty, the main quest is more boring and tepid than it needs to be and, most damning, it still doesn't get rid of the original problem it was created to solve, that you'll still at some point be annihilating almost everything you meet in a matter of seconds. That said it has been tweaked, and has removed the major issue that level scaling added to a sandbox world - that manually traveling between two corners of the map is now not just an issue of overcoming boredom, but surviving the sabre cats and bears.

 

[BLOBERT]

IN TURN THERE ARE MANY PATHS YEAET ONE IS ONLOY THE PATH OF PRIGHTEUOUSNESS I SAW ONTO YOU I WILL RETURN AND THOSREE WHO WILL NOT BE WITH THE PATH OF THE YONDER IN THE NAME OF THE JETSONS THEY SHALL BE IN THO MADE TO SUFFERE AND I AM FORESWEAR I DO SEE IT TO BE ONE

 

[ksjav]

Re: Decline of the Codex: Skyrim has Oblivion's level scalin

That it was so piss easy killing everything in dungeons with that greataxe while being that said mage and dressed in a 0 armour robes? And why all loot found in dungeons was always equal or worse to what I had? (in fact shop owners had better items than quest bosses).

Got a glass sword and battleaxe, while no shops have glass things yet (unfortunately shops are level scaled and generic, most boring part of the game so far), and I seem to always get a good piece of equipment at the end of a dungeon, which almost always seems to be placed there to replace my current worst piece, as if it's actually intended.(procedurally, but found some, I assume, statically placed good pieces, a la Morrowind) I suppose the PC version is different from your consoltard pos

Just like in Oblivion.

I'll just say that at level 20 I can use spells like fury(up to level 6) calm/fear(up to level 9) on most bandits, and if I can't they usually have a chance at kicking my ass (difficulty expert, switched down from master after experiencing how OP followers are, now summoning an atronach is not instawin in most situations). Yes the game spawns more higher level opponents, if you're high level (instead of creating godlike wolves), shit bro the game is trying to create some challenge for the player without blatantly levelscaling everything to his level (can't vouch for the main quest as the whole dragon thing seems DERP and haven't really touched it), and effectively succeeding (eg. minimizing the retardation as was seen in Oblivion), shit shit shit decline decline decline. Oblivion GOTY EVERY YEAR.

 

[Gregz]

Stop playing on Pussy difficulty level

This

Also it's difficult to make a sandbox game without some kind of level scaling. Otherwise...

Gamer: "I want to go...there!"

Developers: "No, you can't go there, you're not strong enough...in fact you can only really handle going there."

Gamer: "OMG another rpg on rails, where is my open world!?!?" /ragequit

 

[kris]

Re: Decline of the Codex: Skyrim has Oblivion's level scalin

A few days ago Old Games (a community where people still know something about RPGs unlike Codex) posted a nice review of Skyrim and reading it yesterday it actually dawned on me.

It didn't dawn on you while playing?

Remember I complained about how easy it's to complete every possible quest I was getting with a mage that improved nothing but mana with a dual-handed greataxe? That it was so piss easy killing everything in dungeons with that greataxe while being that said mage and dressed in a 0 armour robes?

You can always increase the difficult rating if you are to good for the game or something.

And why all loot found in dungeons was always equal or worse to what I had? (in fact shop owners had better items than quest bosses).

Just sometimes true. Problem really is that you get old equipment with some magic on them.

And that killing a dragon, the DRAGON that whole gameworld pisses their pants when talking about, was so ridiculously easy at level 3?

Everyone knows dragons are easy.

So here's a question to our resident pseudo-RPG fans that are 60% of the Codex according to one of the recent polls:

Why do you bitch at Oblivion's level scaling while loving the fuck out of Skyrim's one?

What poll?

 

[Wunderpurps]

Stop playing on Pussy difficulty level

This

Also it's difficult to make a sandbox game without some kind of level scaling. Otherwise...

Gamer: "I want to go...there!"

Developers: "No, you can't go there, you're not strong enough...in fact you can only really handle going there."

Gamer: "OMG another rpg on rails, where is my open world!?!?" /ragequit

You should be stripped of that avatar in shame. In Wasteland you could go anywhere you wanted, and if you were smart enough even survive.

The issue here isn't just level scaling but if there's level based instakills like skybro seems to believe then what a load of shit. Just as bad as invisible walls and if no one else is noticing it's a sad indictment of codexia.

 

[DwarvenFood]

Words can't describe how amusing it is to see you generalizing like that. You talk like a fucking paranoid woman, are you female by any chance?

This is probably the first time I'm posting on a Skyrim related thread and will certainly be the last. Not because I'm busy playing the game, but by total lack of interest, Bethesda died when Oblivion was released and this is not even a matter of edginess or close mindedness, one may even give them another chance and play their next game, but I don't think this particular case deserves this kind of optimism. Just look at the video where the NPCs have their heads covered with buckets and the player takes all the objects in the tavern, and you conclude that this is Oblivion with new textures and a new world map. As a bonus, you may also watch a video featuring some battles to see that they're still years behind Dark Messiah or, hell, even Thief TDP. I don't hate Skyrim though, I simply don't care and will not even torrent it. Why should I bother with this game, just to "walk with the times" or share some thoughts with the cool dudes on their 360s?

I'm certainly not speaking only for myself here, I'd bet more than half of the Codex shares this indifference. I don't know where the fuck you've seen this 60% thing, won't search for the poll, but can't you see that the majority of people that enter this kind of thread are the ones that bothered with Skyrim? Which means most of them still have hope in Bethesda, therefore are more susceptible of tagging the game as "good for what it is" or maybe a little bit higher. As a female paranoid, you take these numbers and see the entire fucking universe as part of this group.

Right now I'm at the end of Dark Side/World of Xeen and tomorrow I'll see if I start OoT for the first time to see what's the buzz all about. After that I'll still have a quite enormous list of cRPGs and adventures that I'm yet to play. Shannara, Callahan's crosstime saloon, Legend of Kyrandia, Uukrul (already played but really want to replay)... Have you played these, Skyway? These and the hundreds of other titles that have been mostly forgotten but are potentially great? Why you torture yourself with the new shit when you can go retro and play some great C64 game or something, Jesus, shut the fuck up for some time. You keep reminding us day after day about the same fucking things and the same shitty mechanics of the newest games, what a fucking coincide, most of us hate all these things, but somehow you still think you're the special chosen one that bears the ultimate truth. Up until 2010 it was somehow amusing, kinda depressing but you could extract quite some fun from that. At least go learn with Serious Business how to be fun, if I had to give a blowjob for each time he made me laugh, I'd be the #1 whore of South America. As a bonus, he's also a great poster.

Quoting for great justice, would put in signature if it wasn't so huge.

 

[Azrael the cat]

skywayskywayskywayskywayskywayskywaysky

Your sig is slightly off. The 'serve a delicious roast and then reveal it is the son of your enemies who you invited for dinner' thing is from Titus Andronicus, Shakespeare's first play that he wrote when he was around 14 (and it reads exactly like you'd expect a 14 year old with the gift of Shakespeare to read like: blood and guts and tasteful rape and tasteless rape and torture, then cut the victim's hands off and tongue out so she can't say who raped and tortured her etc etc, except all in lovely iambic pentameter).

From memory, he actually serves the villains' THREE sons to them in the form of the pie, rather than just one. Nitpicking, sure, but a plot device that awesome deserves respect.

Unless I'm confused and you're drawing from one of the numerous Jacobean revenge tragedies that drew from early Shakespeare/Marlow, but dumped 'all that political drama / nature of man art-fag crap' and focussed on the incest, rape and killing instead (eg 'The Revenger's Tragedy').

Either way, kudos for some great sig material.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

First of all, Skyway is assuming. He states that it all makes sense now, but he doesn't know for sure that all quest-related content in Skyrim is level scaled the same way as it was in Oblivion.

I hate to correct you cause you're a true bro and all, but I never played skyrim and know this is true since that's what Bethesda says.

The one hit kills do seem very suspicious so it sounds very much like skyway is correct. But even a shitty hack like that is a good step up from being able to complete the game at level 1.

So what is the best-scenario alternative of a one-hit kill, when trying depict an enemy that is way overpowered compared to your current level/abilities? And any examples from some good rpgs that had something close to this alternative, instead of the 'one-hit kill hack'?

I don't think you get what's going on. The enemy does a level check and if you are below level x you die. That has to be what happens because even if you don't select health at all and then go back to the same area once you get to a certain level it no longer one hit kills you.

You are assuming that is what is going on. Until it can be proven, I would rather just put it down to equipment and perks (in the case of unchanging max hp) that might have mitigated more damage. Read what you wrote and tell me it isn't a huge leap of faith to suggest an engine that specifically fails at playing with numbers would entertain something so unnecessarily complex like damage dealt to PC dependent on level - again, which was never stated ANYWHERE until your post. Wow.

Edit: Okay just read your last post and realised you are another one that haven't played the game, and have gathered most of your gameplay information based on some less-than-accurate posts on the Codex. In before 'lolol why wud I waste mai time playin it. imma jsut posting cuz its the truths and u cant handle it'.