Decline of the Codex: Skyrim has Oblivion's level scaling

[Majestic47]

Reposting from another thread, Skyway...is kinda right but not entirely accurate.

I think someone mentioned it on another thread, in order to derive fun from Skyrim faction quest line as well as a modicum of 'character progression in relation with the world', you need to start a new character, strictly employ the skills that are required to overcome the quest line.

I can see where that idea come from. After three restarts, the game broke apart at lvl 20. Quests have no meaningful gains or rewards doing the Companions at lvl 20, the smithy gave me a Skyforge Steel - supposedly 'the finest steel in Skyrim' it's shit compared to my Elven sword and the Wolf armor is way obsolete at that point. I also have a sneaky suspicion that gold rewards are scaled, too. Because earning 400 gold from talking down someone who tries to pick up a widow seems a bit much.

By 20, Level ups are just waiting for the next unlocking thresholds. And Dragons...yawn. Archery Training. A rebalance mod that doesn't just amp up the damage and hp of enemy would be nice. Maybe make them more numerous etc.

Before you guys start telling me to up the difficulty, I did. I upped it to expert, only to watch my guy in full Orcish being dropped by two Elven arrow from range. With her, a fire-balling mage friend, and a bandit chief with greatsword.

There is almost no feasible way to approach this without potion spamming and kiting these bastards from the distance. I ran with 250 HP and couldn't have much fun when my Nord warrior was forced to turn into archer. I had 40 on Archery with shock elven bow that does 25 lightning damage on hit and it wasn't enough to even drop the hide armor wearing archer in 3 shot while she'll dispatch me in 2. I could cheese my way by just doing sneak archery ...but that's not what I made this greatsword wielding Nord for.

So there's nothing left for me to do except restart - try a new approach or lower it back to Adept difficulty where most things pose a somewhat do-able challenge, but the amount of options the hero had is just too strong for the NPC to overcome.

Short version: Scaled Leveling didn't work for me in Skyrim, this sandbox game would benefit more from zoned monsters instead. A rough tavern rumor guide and such would help to warn the players.

 

[Wunderpurps]

So let me understand what you are posting. Skyway plays Skyrim. Skyway knows there's level-scaling. Skyway writes on Codex about his experience. His experience is debunked as exaggerated in another thread, and by countless other players of the same game. Wunderpurps wanders into thread. Wunderpurps repeats Skyrim's initial, unsubstantiated claim and agree with the conclusion, whether it was right or wrong, and decided to write a post supporting it, without playing Skyrim. Everything falls apart. Wunderpurps, who never touched the game, continued to post although his opinion, solely based on Skyway's debunked conclusion, without care of its irrelevance. Gets called out. Calls the rest of Codex dumbasses.

There is a very big difference between a level-scaling system based on incremental damage/hp/stats in general vs one that discriminates based on level and materialises through 1-shot kills, which disappears after level threshold. The latter being what you and Skyway are instigating, or at least being confused about. Anyhow, if you just want to post on Skyrim just because it's cool, then say so, so nobody will take you seriously.

Both ways you are fucked:
1) You are innocent, you are just supporting the OP's conclusion because it makes sense although you would never touch Skyrim. So you are parroting the OP for its own sake, to increase post-count (?).

2) You genuinely feel that the system in place is what the OP is describing, and feel the need to let others know. Well, you are wrong. Sorry.

Here is how a discussion works. One guy makes a claim. Another guy refutes or agrees with it, and says why.

So skyway makes some claim and what kind of bullshit responses have come up? No one has refuted the claim.

Now you claim I claim it too. No, dumbass, I WANT TO KNOW. I am ASKING.

Everything he's said seems reasonable to me, however I'd like some real discussion or attempt to confirm or debunk this not some dumbfuckery like what you just typed.

 

[kris]

Here is how a discussion works. One guy makes a claim. Another guy refutes or agrees with it, and says why.

So skyway makes some claim and what kind of bullshit responses have come up? No one has refuted the claim.

He made several claims, but it seems his claim about many/several spawned enemies that one-shot kill you is the one brought up. That has been refuted by most here. Personally I can't remember any enemy that every killed my in one shot. All needed at least two.

So that ha sbeen refuted. Or was it something else you was thinking about?

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

WHAT THE FUCK HOW DO I GET THE RIFTEN HOUSE IN THIS PIECE OF SHIT GAME AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

I fucking did everything I can in that fucking town and no fucking option. Why the fuck do you need to do everyone's retarded laundry list just to buy a fucking house? Is this some kind of new economical system based on favors, but still requiring money??? FFS can you imagine this in real life? Having to find 30 different items for 4 people and THEN have to pay for the privelage of owning some house? WTF DOES THIS FUCKING GAME WANT FROM ME????????

Skooma.

 

[flushfire]

He made several claims, but it seems his claim about many/several spawned enemies that one-shot kill you is the one brought up. That has been refuted by most here. Personally I can't remember any enemy that every killed my in one shot. All needed at least two.

So that ha sbeen refuted. Or was it something else you was thinking about?

What difference does it make if it's one or two hits? As long as level is a factor in damage calculation then what he said is correct, even if exaggerated.

 

[kris]

He made several claims, but it seems his claim about many/several spawned enemies that one-shot kill you is the one brought up. That has been refuted by most here. Personally I can't remember any enemy that every killed my in one shot. All needed at least two.

So that ha sbeen refuted. Or was it something else you was thinking about?

What difference does it make if it's one or two hits? As long as level is a factor in damage calculation then what he said is correct, even if exaggerated.

Read his post.

 

[flushfire]

Re: Decline of the Codex: Skyrim has Oblivion's level scalin

The only difference is that Bethesda placed spawnpoints for certain types of monsters (but not in quest dungeons) which will one-shot-kill you if your level is less than a level needed to fight them upon getting which you suddenly start killing the fuck out of them. But if you are lower no matter which kind of armour you are wearing you can't do shit but instadie.

VS

The only difference is that Bethesda placed spawnpoints for certain types of monsters (but not in quest dungeons) which will two-shot-kill you if your level is less than a level needed to fight them upon getting which you suddenly start killing the fuck out of them. But if you are lower no matter which kind of armour you are wearing you can't do shit but die in two hits.

Wow, what a load of difference that makes. Using level as a factor in damage calculation/as a threshold for what you can/cannot fight properly is still retarded.

 

[kris]

Level as fa.... what are you talking about?

Here is the only important point:
- Some opponents are scaled to your level
- Others are not.

You seem to get into why they can kill you, which isn't really something I care about.

I'll just say that the levelscaling is better in skyrim than Oblivion. that is what he claimed it wasn't.

and as for what difference it makes? It makes a 100% difference between being killed in one or two hits.

 

[flushfire]

dear god in heaven how can that be difficult to understand?

assuming what OP said is true - if your level is below whatever level bethesda decided you should be fighting a certain monster, then that monster will do much more damage than it would be doing if you're equal or over the level required. it doesn't matter what equipment nor stats you have, the main factor is level.

it means it's nearly impossible to overcome some enemies just because you have not reached a certain level. it is ridiculous to be able to kill a monster (that was one-shotting you) easily wearing the same equipment and with the same stats just because your level number increased. it doesn't make shit of a difference if you die in one or two hits. enemies that kill you in one hit can still be kited. exploits can still be used. in those cases level is still the determining factor in combat and that is just retarded.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

Kris, don't bother haha.

Btw, is it true MQ isn't scaling for some of you? I went into the tomb for the 2nd MQ quest (get horn of jurgen something) and the first hall had 4 bloody ascendant necromancers. I'm level 41. When somebody says that MQ doesn't scale does it mean specific unique enemies like named dragons or whatever that don't scale? Because the basic underling caste is leveled for me.

Edit: Don't know where else to put this put Ustengrav (that dungeon for the horn thingy in MQ) is quite decent, and even had 2 secret areas in the large waterfall cavern, 1 of which requires some thinking.

 

[Phelot]

Skyrim becomes astronomically more difficult when you're really drunk. I was confusing Winterhelm Windhelm with Winterhold...

 

[Shannow]

Here is how a discussion works. One guy makes a claim. Another guy refutes or agrees with it, and says why.

So skyway makes some claim and what kind of bullshit responses have come up? No one has refuted the claim.

He made several claims, but it seems his claim about many/several spawned enemies that one-shot kill you is the one brought up. That has been refuted by most here. Personally I can't remember any enemy that every killed my in one shot. All needed at least two.

So that ha sbeen refuted. Or was it something else you was thinking about?

As flushfire said, if anything I've seen people confirming skyway's points.
Perhaps I've critically failed my reading check. Please be so kind as to post quotes of "most here" that refute that: certain enemies do enough damage to 1,2,3-shot your character until you reach a certain level after which they suddenly do "normal" damage to you although you didn't significantly increase your armor/resitances/HP between encounters.
Because all I've seen are 1-2 posts confirming his point, lots of posts missing his point entirely and even more going "LOL skyway, you dumb." which still didn't refute the point.

I'm still waiting for somebody who actually understands the point to refute it.

 

[Forest Dweller]

skywayskywayskywayskywayskywayskywaysky

Your sig is slightly off. The 'serve a delicious roast and then reveal it is the son of your enemies who you invited for dinner' thing is from Titus Andronicus, Shakespeare's first play that he wrote when he was around 14 (and it reads exactly like you'd expect a 14 year old with the gift of Shakespeare to read like: blood and guts and tasteful rape and tasteless rape and torture, then cut the victim's hands off and tongue out so she can't say who raped and tortured her etc etc, except all in lovely iambic pentameter).

From memory, he actually serves the villains' THREE sons to them in the form of the pie, rather than just one. Nitpicking, sure, but a plot device that awesome deserves respect.

Unless I'm confused and you're drawing from one of the numerous Jacobean revenge tragedies that drew from early Shakespeare/Marlow, but dumped 'all that political drama / nature of man art-fag crap' and focussed on the incest, rape and killing instead (eg 'The Revenger's Tragedy').

Either way, kudos for some great sig material.

........

I was just quoting another member here.

 

[Oriebam]

the sarah silverman quotes were funnier

 

[abija]

As flushfire said, if anything I've seen people confirming skyway's points.
Perhaps I've critically failed my reading check. Please be so kind as to post quotes of "most here" that refute that: certain enemies do enough damage to 1,2,3-shot your character until you reach a certain level after which they suddenly do "normal" damage to you although you didn't significantly increase your armor/resitances/HP between encounters.
Because all I've seen are 1-2 posts confirming his point, lots of posts missing his point entirely and even more going "LOL skyway, you dumb." which still didn't refute the point.

I'm still waiting for somebody who actually understands the point to refute it.

I went with a lvl 45 super ninja assassin to the mammoths in the middle of the map and got 1 shot by some ability. I managed to kill one of those 1v1 with a lvl 13 block warrior. Also the mammoths were level 38 in both cases.
He talked out of his ass, simple as that. Just as when he was explaining how block is useless and clicking fast is better.

 

[Serious_Business]

At least go learn with Serious Business how to be fun, if I had to give a blowjob for each time he made me laugh, I'd be the #1 whore of South America. As a bonus, he's also a great poster.

Meh, I've actually been pretty shit in the last few months, if not the last year. But I also think I used to be great, because back in the day I'd read my own posts all the time, they're the funniest, most flippant shit I've ever read on an internet forum. However, I've been deflated by fuckers like you who give me a nice reputation. I can't be funny if I have fan girls, it makes me feel bad about being vindicative and insulting. I need a "me agaisnt them" mentality, otherwise we're all jerking each others off, and what's the point? Wit comes from antagonism - not to say that antagonism is wit, of course. And about skyway, I think he wants to be funny too (he does get the antagonism part down), but he cares to much. You can't care that much and be funny at the same time. Well maybe you can, but I have no idea how. The kid is on a divine mission. Nobody cares more than him at this point, and he wants us all to care as much as he does. So far he's pretty much succeeding. I do enjoy the fact that he's pissing everyone off. I mean, nobody should give a damn about Skyrim and he still manages to make people care about this shit. Isn't it highly entertaining, at least indirectly?

 

[Stakhanov]

@Shannow

Someone believes Skyway, seriously? You've been misled by plausible half-truths; the OP is twisted by the usual butthurt agenda and subhuman liez.


From Halfling Barbarian in another post:

My initial thoughts and argument:

Do you think Bethesda would purposely screw around with a level-scale system that was evident since Oblivion, FO3 and FNV that has damage without basis in enemy level, and modified only stats? What would be the point of that? Cazadors 1 shots level 1 in FNV easily, do you think this system was in place in FNV as well? What Skyway is suggesting is essentially an extra layer of differentiation in power of enemy ON TOP of incremental stats, through adding a variable like level to damage done (why not hp, or mana, or accuracy, w/e?).

My current exasperated test and conclusions:

I'm not going to give numbers though I have them, so that for once those that disagree and are flinging theories left and right to prove something I don't understand can go do some investigation and research FOR ONCE. I'm just going to tell you how to do it. Start a new game, go to any town. Console getav health/magicka/stamina/etc. and getlevel <target> on a mean-looking NPC (guard or a jarl or something) until you accumulate enough variables to make you happy. Look at your own health make sure no one is secretly hacking your computer to fuck up the test results. Then player.modav magicka/health/stamina <amount> to set your, say, hp to a number like 9999 so you are sure no one is fucking with you. Attack the guard. Right after his first attack, check your hp. REMEMBER THE NUMBER WRITE IT ON A PIECE OF PAPER AND KEEP IT IN A SAFE PLACE. Remember you are still level 1.

Now load up your own savegame of usual character, hopefully with at least a 10 level difference so you are UBER CONVINCED. Go to same guard ... ACTUALLY you know what? I'm not going to use a guard. Because then the next shitty post will be about how guards may not be level-scaled. USE A TROLL. FIND THE REF OF ANY TROLL OR MEAN CREATURE AND SPAWN ONE. It doesn't really matter, but if it makes you feel better please do it. Then player.placeatme (REFID OF AWESUM BEAST) - note it's not player.placeleveledactoratme, so the level won't be different than from the level 1 instance we used above. But, just in case, getav level again. Check your hp. Let it hit you once. Check again. Uninstall in anger.

I don't know why I'm doing this but I'm a little sick of some of the misconceptions and outright lies about Skyrim scattered across the threads. It's very draining to try to debunk them one by one. The game isn't perfect, it may not even be good, but spreading misinformation about it just because you have an agenda to fulfill is just so wrong. This is the last one I'll just let every other myth fester and go play my damn game.

TL;DR: Skyrim is wrong. His superficial assumption is wrong, the derived assumptions from his superficial assumption are wrong. Bethesda just used the FNV leveled system aka leveled-with-cap aka creatures have a limited range in levels in which it can spawn, and have different combat statistics due to that."

 

[Shannow]

Gods, I should put halfing barbarian back on ignore simply for not getting to the fucking point. After reading that shit post twice and wasting prescious time:
1. He doesn't say anything. He proposes (an incredibly convoluted way of) how to check skyway's claim without actually giving any results...
And
2. He misses the point, too. Even if he'd chosen a far simpler way of checking (Look for an enemy that 1,2,3 shots you in the early game. Save before the fight. Cheat and give yourself levels in 5 level steps without increasing HP and try the fight again after each increase. See whether the enemy suddenly stops 1,2,3 shotting you after a certain level. Post the results. There, that needed 4 sentences to explain, not fucking 4 paragraphs.), he still missed the point:

The only difference is that Bethesda placed spawnpoints for certain types of monsters (but not in quest dungeons) which will one-shot-kill you if your level is less than a level needed to fight them upon getting which you suddenly start killing the fuck out of them. But if you are lower no matter which kind of armour you are wearing you can't do shit but instadie. Even though the game has no stats for anything but health which you get at +10 per level (if you even invest points into it!)

Skyway nowhere claims that every enemy in the game is scaled that way. So experimenting on random guards is completely pointless...

I went with a lvl 45 super ninja assassin to the mammoths in the middle of the map and got 1 shot by some ability. I managed to kill one of those 1v1 with a lvl 13 block warrior. Also the mammoths were level 38 in both cases.
He talked out of his ass, simple as that. Just as when he was explaining how block is useless and clicking fast is better.

That's the closest anyone ITT got to actually refuting skyway's claims. The problem is that it's a little sketchy on the details and it's not conclusive proof of him being wrong. Perhaps the mammoths simply do enough damage to one shot somebody who hasn't invested in HP. Again, he didn't claim that every enemy was scaled that way.
Anyway, gonna read the other thread. Perhaps they are more successful at shedding light.

 

[baronjohn]

So we have to check every single enemy in the game or Skyway is right by default?

How about he just tell us which enemy scales like he says?

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Because the discussion would have a definite, objective answer, and we cannot just have that.

 

[Black Cat]

@ Shannow

Not taking any sides here but the burden of proof is on Skyway, not on those who believe him to be full of shit.

 

[Redshirt #42]

The minute someone demolishes your "arguments" you fuck off never to be seen in the thread again.

This exactly. But in the end, he's lying anyway. I bet he's enjoying that piece of crap. You just can't have taste if you managed to replay Knights of the Old Republic seven fucking times.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

This is still going on? Haha. And oh wow, I'm sorry I went to the trouble of actually testing troll claims and reported back here, next time we'll just let discussions run around in theoretical circles since some of you are so determined to let the argument float anyways.

Skyway: lol skyrim sux cos i think they use cheap method of level scaling i got 1 shot by X and later on X does significantly less dmg just cuz of my level.

Wunderpurps: hurrr.

Others: No. Here's what I experienced consistently...

Wunderpurps: derrrp. actualli skyway is sayin level FIGURES into the dmg calculation. o wait guyz don't hurt me i'm just reading skyway post and he seems reasonable though i havent played the game. wait wait wait i'm just ASKING if it's true.

Others: No. Here's what I experienced consistently...

-Proof against concept-

Shannow: heyz i don't read/search threads i pop around and if i can't find an answer to something i assume nobody can disprove skyway and skyrim sux.

Others: No. Somebody did testing...

Shannow: o lols too many words, doesn't make sense. lemme concoct a shorter method. oops i just wrote that out for KKK and didnt try it at all. gotcha guys. btw none of u understand skyway only i do.

@Shannow: There's a TL;DR section at the end, for those that can't/don't read and also those that like the style of groundless claims. And my 'results' are in the conclusion, without numbers. By your comment I am glad I didn't post the actual results anyways, so you can continue being deluded until you get off your lazy, entitled butt and do the testing yourself. (Clue: Your 4 sentence ingenious way of testing is wrong, and can't be done. Sorry.)

 

[Stakhanov]

HalflingBarbarian:
Here's what I found experimenting with damage and levels in Skyrim using console commands: level has absolutely no effect on damage that I've found so far. I created a new character, a High Elf mage by the name of Mastermind (who better to defend TES' honour?) and put him through the grinder.

I pissed off some giants and predictably got moon launched. Set the level to 99 and also got moon launched. It's because they were doing ~150 damage a swing regardless of level. Put in some perks and attributes just to be thorough, besides the ones that would lead to damage mitigation obv., and again same damage. I also tested on human bandits/mages/bosses, spriggans, trolls, chauruses, falmers and mammoths. I'm running out of enemies that would prove Skyway to be even 5-10% correct. Perhaps a few draugr or human bosses might display this behaviour but so far everything has falsified Skyway's claim. Fuck playing any more though, I'm not playing through every ounce of content so I can prove this shit to be completely unfounded. There are enough things wrong with Skyrim that this is just diversionary bullshit.

TL:DR 3/5 to Skyway for getting me to waste my time with further rimming.

 

[FeelTheRads]

You missed the key part:

...you and Skyway are oblivious to your own. You've become parodies/stereotypes of yourselves. Congratulations.

You clearly don't know what a parody is. Maybe you should do some research.

Here's a crazy thought. If people like you and Skyway don't want to sully yourselves debating with the Untermenschen perhaps you could go post on another forum? But... you won't because the reality is you crave the attention you get by winding up random internet strangers.

Nah, it's fun reading retarded shit like "no real RPGs are made anymore so you have to like action RPGs now, otherwise you're a hater and you are really stupid and sad". You had at least one such post too, if I'm not mistaken. Cheers, bro, that's some deep shit.