Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Pre-Release Thread

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Infinitron, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. T. Reich Arcane

    T. Reich
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2013
    Messages:
    2,546
    Location:
    not even close
    By falling for that obvious vent, you missed the actually hidden vent completely concealed behind the crate that is only movable if you had the strength aug. This particular vent would've led you on a totally different optional route that avoided a segment of the level and presented you with opportunity to emerge in a totally different location of the level.
    Replace that with "breakable wall" or "a long and otherwise fatal drop" if you have the other specific augs as well.
     
    ^ Top  
  2. toro Arcane

    toro
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,517
    Unfortunately all the routes are signaled with neon signs. Including the "stealth" path.
     
    ^ Top  
  3. The Nameless Pun Unwanted

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2015
    Messages:
    224
    cough-you can turn off object highlight-cough
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  4. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

    Gnidrologist
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,442
    Location:
    is cold
    So, just like in DX. Because if you really missed the ''vent only route'' in any of the DX levels, odds are you're complete retard.
    Both DX and HR have obvious shortcuts and well hidden ones, but rose tinted nostalgia faggots wont admit it just like a lot of different bs myths about original. DX was great shooter with nice levels and some rpgs elements like stats. It was still 100% linear action game with soewhat open-ended spatial design no better than FarCry. It has 0%, and i will repeat this, fucking ZERO meaningful choices and consequences, unless you're ''omg, this guy made different reaction, when i entered the room via sewers so choice, much wow'' faggot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2016
    ^ Top  
  5. Ninjerk Arcane

    Ninjerk
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    11,762
    Jock's apartment
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Ash Arcane

    Ash
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Messages:
    3,262
    :5/5:
     
    ^ Top  
  7. MotherMachinae Arcane

    MotherMachinae
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,866,382
    Location:
    In the court of Atomic Rooster
    Desu Ex - Mankind Divided by Vents
     
    ^ Top  
  8. an Administrator Self-Ejected

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Messages:
    4,339
    Location:
    Where expecting basics is considered perfectionism
    At the end of my first playthrough, I was surprised when i realized we can actually save Paul's life so i replayed it and this time i saved him. I faced some npcs who reacted differently when Paul was alive. I think this is what people call "Choices and Consequences"
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,839
    Location:
    Argentina
    Pretty sure not turning it off is what ruined DH:HR for me, so thanks. I'll give it another try in the near future without it.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

    Gnidrologist
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,442
    Location:
    is cold
    When i played HR before reading any of the internet guides, i didn't know you can save the chopper pilot if acting fast. Thought it was scripted for her to die. Same thing.
     
    ^ Top  
  11. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    5,467
    True but after some time I got on a room thinking "Where is the obligatory I WIN! stealth vent?", probably on the bathroom or under the stairs. Oh, I found the I WIN! vent, now I just need to engage on fun stealth gameplay of pressing W until next room that will have an obligatory I WIN! stealth vent too.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Moink Savant

    Moink
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Messages:
    444
    Why did the vents have lights in them? What purpose does that serve? Is there a race of lovecraftian vent dwellers that are only sated by having artificial lights in their vents?
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    9,726
    Yes, it feels like they drew up a list of things that good DX1 levels had, then hired a Nazi to watch the designers work with instructions to immediately terminate anyone designing a room without at least 2 keypads, a vent system, and hackable computers everywhere.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  14. toro Arcane

    toro
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,517
    The world in Deus Ex was designed as an environment you could cross in any way you want it. The designer didn't put any emphasis on the vents. They are there and you can choose to use them or ignore them.

    In DX:HR the levels are designed around the stealth paths and the game rewards ghosting with XP bonus. The vents are everywhere (except boss fights) and ignoring them is no longer feasible because I would mean self-gimping.

    This new implementation is obnoxious. This is what I'm talking about.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  15. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

    Gnidrologist
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,442
    Location:
    is cold
    I agree about XP rewards, which i already said previously, but general design wise both games are the same. DX was obviously suggestive about it's stealth path. Only difference is that in HR guns blazing is actually hard and Jensen can't take nearly as much punishment as JC, at least when comparing ''normal'' levels of both games, which means he absolutely needs to invest in augs that supplement this kind of gameplay.
     
    ^ Top  
  16. The Nameless Pun Unwanted

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2015
    Messages:
    224
    The biggest amount of crap I've ever read on the codex, and that's saying something. Deus Ex was a great shooter? Are you kidding me? It was a bad shooter, because, you know, the reticule would change depending on your skill level. And the time needed to aim the shot. By the way you're talking your understanding of the game is barely acceptable. You say it had stats, it didn't. It had skills, but not stats. Linear levels you say? Deus Ex's levels are not linear. I remember the vandenberg level where your pilot drops you on top of the building. If you have the proper aug, you can just jump from the roof to ground level, or you can disable all the robots in the level by using a combat drone, without having to expose yourself. Everytime, every-fucking-time I play the game I find some hidden room or unexplored path, or maybe a shortcut I never saw before. You say choice and consequence? There are none, if you are looking for that kind of C&C, but you choose what approach to take every time you find an obstacle or a problem. Of all the games I've played, dx is the best in terms of freedom of approach when dealing with various situations.
    You have a simple but extremely effective character progression system capable of simulating wildly different builds (ninja guy with power-sword, silent sniper, close combat freak with an electric prod, hell in one playthrough I was taking down military mechs [MECHS] with the dragon sword) and the different ways in which these builds interact with situational puzzles. There's plenty of replayability in that. And comparing deus ex to far cry is like comparing planescape torment to dragon age 2. Don't hit the bottle, pal, just don't.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    ^ Top  
  17. Siobhan Arbiter

    Siobhan
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    403
    Location:
    1X 1Y 2Z
    At some point I'll have to read all the threads from the pre-2010 days of the codex to figure out how that dogma emerged that C&C can only be about story and world reactivity rather than gameplay. I'm not even trolling, I honestly don't understand how an entire forum could agree that Fallout is a fun game and conclude from that that gameplay C&C isn't C&C.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  18. The Nameless Pun Unwanted

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2015
    Messages:
    224
    This.
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Gambler Augur

    Gambler
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    713
    No big surprises here. It did a poor job of connecting plot events, people, and overall locations to the specific levels you navigate and things you do. I remember sneaking through a Chinese research facility, then interrogating some generic-looking scientist NPCs in the end, but I have no recollection of what was the point of it all. Something about deliberate design issues introduced into prosthetics? How did I know what to look for? What was the reason I went to China in the first place? Don't remember. The most memorable episode of the whole affair was that I camped out in some room, had around 6 or 7 guards rushing to "investigate" it. Each of them came alone, so I just shot them with tranq darts from the corner. At the end I had a literal pile of bodies in front of the door. I think this was the worst AI failure I've seen in a while.

    Part of the problem was that too many "action" parts of the game were pure obstacle courses. A rat maze to make your life difficult. Mostly outside of any real context.

    The original Deus Ex had some spaces like that, but most of the game was far more interconnected. Take the first "challenge space" in the game, for example.
    1. It was a Statue of Liberty. Disassembled. Memorable in its own right, because it's something that connects in-game world with real life in a non-trivial way.
    2. The "challenge space" was a part of a larger area, with a pier, UNATCO headquarters and so on. You actually revisit that place several times later in the game, so it doesn't feel entirely disposable.
    3. There was a complex ongoing situation. Failed previous assault. Hostage. Government killer bots marching around. Your brother giving you the briefing. You being asked to capture the leader of the terrorists.

    Take those three things away and... you'll get an average Human Revolution level, except the latter would be more linear in how you navigate it.

    The fact that DX:HR has a very clear "hub" structure doesn't help either. There are "looking areas" (mostly non-interactive implementations of concepts art), "walking and talking" areas, and then the rate mazes. All of it is very discontinuous, i.e. not blended together.

    Compare, for example, Jensen's apartment with Paul Denton's place.

    Yeah, the former has tons of visual detail and volumetric lighting, but it's just a 3d picture. Nothing happens there. There is a rather crude attempt to "humanize" the protagonists by playing some sad music and showing his living space, but the room it not a meaningful part of the game's space and it's not involved in the game's plot in some way that couldn't use an entirely different location.

    Paul Denton's apartment is relatively bare-bone in terms of visuals, but it is a backdrop for a major decision point of the game. The meeting and the conversation taking place there are hard to forget. Then there is the assault of MIBs. Because of that assault and because there is an alternative exist that allows you to sneak in and out the apartment has a well-defined place in game's 3d world. Plus, it has hidden information that's relevant to the plot. So we have: combat, dialog, alternative movement paths, major choice, hidden compartment with written info and an NPC that actually does stuff and moves around the world.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  20. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

    Gnidrologist
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,442
    Location:
    is cold
    Some of you guys have serious reading comprehension issues. I never said that plot tied C&C is something that's has to be in every game, i simply denied those, who said that DX has them. It doesn't.
    What part of ''spatially open ended'' you didn't get? DX has linear plot, but various ways to tackle levels so yes, it is like FarCry, at least the first game in the series. And yes, it is shooter even though it's greatness isn't tied to awesome gunplay. And don't drag into stupid semantics about stats/skills. You perfectly understood what i meant.
    But the main point is that HR is not THAT different like some people try to make it, let alone being almost utter shit like some posts here make it out to be. I do agree that overall is better fleshed out game though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2016
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. bloodlover Arcane

    bloodlover
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,867
    When playing DX I kind of started seeing the obvious stealth routes too so I guess in time and with a little exploration the games does not shine brighter compared to HR. And in HR you could also sneak by NPC's and not take the obvious vents (that seemed to be everywhere) but then you'd just make your life much harder for no reason. The difference however (at least how I perceived it) is in level design and enjoyment. I also think that the game design around augmentations also changed how you played the game and went through the levels. I feel that t DX encouraged the exploration more since you needed consumables to lockpick and hack while in HR this was made with augs. Also, in HR, once you got energy + invisibility augs maxed you could just run through the level without bothering to explore or even sneak. It made everything trivial, while DX managed to offer a constant stealth experience all game.
     
    ^ Top  
  22. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    77,837
    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    You need to replay DX again if you think it's innocent of this. It's a huge, rambling kitchen sink of a game that doesn't seem all that coherent in retrospect. You visit: Some naval base and a ship you go on to? A graveyard with an Illuminati guy hiding in a tomb? Catacombs in Paris with French student rioters? A bunch of science labs that have something called a "Universal Constructor" which is supposed to be important until it isn't? A gas station out in the middle of nowhere? What was all that stuff for again? In the end, you wonder why you couldn't just nuke Area 51 and go directly there, skipping all the Ambrosia stuff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2016
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  23. Gambler Augur

    Gambler
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    713
    The level of plot significance is not the same. Also, the whole pilot thing was already done in the original.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

    Gnidrologist
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,442
    Location:
    is cold
    Saving or not Paul bro isn't either. It's mainly for flavor.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. The Nameless Pun Unwanted

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2015
    Messages:
    224
    I perfectly understand you're a moron.
     
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)