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Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Pre-Release Thread

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Infinitron, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

    Gnidrologist
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    And you're butthurt fanboy.
     
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  2. The Nameless Pun Unwanted

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    Now you tell me how you got those conclusions. Tell me and prove me you're not speaking out of your ass
     
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  3. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

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    Prove what? You didn't disprove any of what said to begin with. You either said things that i've already agreed with, attacked things i didn't said, argued semantics and threw a hissy fit.
    You also missed the context, which is comparison with HR and fact even though DX is better, when counting sum of it's parts, design wise it's not superior by miles.
     
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  4. The Nameless Pun Unwanted

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    Your greatest analytical feat was a 5-sentences post about the game being linear (bullshit), open-ended spatial design (whatever that means), 0% meaningful choices and consequences (apparently it's the only type of C&C you can grasp) and hr being no different in terms of level design (just compare the naval shipyards level, with the outer sections, inner sections and various decks of the ship to explore, with any level hr has to offer). You bet your ass I'm missing your point, if there's any at all.
     
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  5. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

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    Yes, DX has bigger levels. Did i deny that. Bigger levels are nice, no doubt. Core design principles are still same.
    If you think that DX is not linear, because you can ''try different approach'' like sneaking through vent, using rocket launcher or hacking a bot, i have bad news for you. A lot of action games both old and new has that. Was FarCry non-linear, because you could approach objectives from different vantage points (spatial open endedness)? Did it have C&C, because of that? No. it was still on-rails shooter and so is DX. It's not a corridor shooter, but that's it.
     
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  6. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Not to mention Deus Ex does have notable story C&C such as to save or not to save Paul, Smuggler and Jock. It isn't as complex as seen in Fallout yet it's still meaningful. But yeah, Deus Ex does gameplay C&C extremely well, beyond that of Fallout perhaps.

    As for why gameplay C&C does not enter a lot of the Codex's vocab, well there's a lot of storyfags here. Just check codex top few RPGs.

    It's best to ignore Gnidrologist. The sheer amount of factually erroneous statements is staggering, alongside the contradictory opinions e.g "Deus Ex has ZERO meaningful C&C". whilst simultaneously stating he had only played the game once. It requires at least one replay to determine both the extent of the C&C and the relevance of it, especially as the C&C is usually discovered through actions and not words (i.e saving or not saving Paul) and is therefore more subtle to discover. A lot of people didn't even realize saving Paul was an option.
     
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  7. The Nameless Pun Unwanted

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    Deus Ex is the only game to consistently implement different solutions in every situation you encounter. You see an obstacle, you can use your leg augs to jump over it, or use your strength aug to move objects and build some high shit to climb, or find another route to bypass the obstacle. If you can find one single game that for every environmental puzzle encounter gives you as much freedom of choice as dx, I'd gladly shut up and leave this discussion. Approaching objectives from different vantage points is not the same, you are just changing spatial orientation, then proceeding to slaughter the enemy in the same fucking way. Hell, I'm not even talking about the bloody combat, I'm talking about non combat situations and you can bet your ass far cry doesn't have the same amount of different choices to approach different situations. And no, it is not linear, hell every game is linear since you have to go from point A to point B, the difference is the amount of different paths you can take and integrating rpg elements with different problem solving scenarios is the real challenge.
    You talk about deus ex as if you have exstensive knowledge about its mechanics and its full spectrum of different approaches. You know jack shit about it.
     
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  8. Gambler Augur

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    I don't think DX is entirely devoid of disconnected levels or "rat mazes", but overall it's more coherent than HR.

    Even when I look at a nicely compiled chronology of HR, a lot of the core events look either conveniently accidental (you're special, you're nearly killed, you become super-augmented) or highly contrived (breaking into a police station for no good reason). During the game it often felt downright confusing. At times the only motivation to go somewhere was "I traced this signal to an abandoned warehouse full of bad guys".

    DX was more interconnected, but it wasn't just about the story. It was also about the presentation: connected physical spaces, visual styles, pacing and foreshadowing of events, recurring characters and locations, as well as behavior trajectories and relationships that make overall sense. This discussion makes me want to replay the game.

    PS: There is a series of videos about DX:HR architecture that might be relevant here. I'm not saying it proves anything, and I think he overthinks some aspects of level design, but it's still interesting.
     
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  9. Kontra Educated

    Kontra
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    Maybe im wrong but there was a mention of a superfreighter carrying an ambrosia shipment in several missions prior to the naval base... On a datacube or in a conversation or something. The same with the air field mission, they mention the airfield maybe as early as Liberty Island(could be wrong).
    But it wasnt just a pile of random missions.. There was a plan to it.
     
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  10. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Yeah, I've no idea what that was about. The plot is very coherent. If you didn't find it to be it is likely you weren't paying attention. Everything you do is a necessity given the circumstances. It's all a lot of following sensible orders, seeking answers, and acting upon the information you discover until you unravel the conspiracy and then take the fight to Page. Everything you do post-defection is a desperate struggle to win a seemingly unwinnable war.
    You don't even confirm Page's location or involvement in the conspiracy until Paris, so how would you nuke him? Not to mention commandeering a nuke is a possibility that would seem entirely out of reach, but extreme circumstances arose to allow that to happen. And I can't even begin to understand why one would question JC's motivation to produce a cure (ambrosia).

    There's many reasons why JC would do so:

    1. He is indebted to Tong, who deactivates the killswitch and promises further assistance should you help with the ambrosia problem.
    2. To form alliances with the goal of fighting this unwinnable war against an invisible and extremely powerful enemy.
    3. To weaken this enemy by attacking their operations.
    4. To strengthen the NSF and other potential alliances via granting hope and enabling freedom fighters to be healthy, not dead from the gray death.
    5. To save the world from great turmoil and free civilians from the grip of this shadow gov. organization (who not only made and distributed the fatal virus among the population, but also solely produce and selectively distribute the cure).

    At this point in time nuking page, or even learning where Page is and his involvement in it all is not even an option. Hell you've only just begun to believe there is a conspiracy to begin with, previously you were a loyal UNATCO/MJ12 pawn, and we're supposed to be considering nuking Area 51 right off the bat? Many replays are in order here, starting with Gnidrologist.
     
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  11. Gnidrologist CONDUCTOR

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    HR had at least 2, but usually 3 or more routes/styles of solutions to most areas, yet when it's done there it's ''hamfisted'' or ''too obvious''. :roll:
     
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  12. T. Reich Arcane

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    You'll find out that such discussions likely did not have place at all because "Choices & Consequences" is a marketing gimmick, and until it came around no-one bothered with arguing the presence of "Choices & Consequences" in RPGs because, you know, no-one cared!

    The old adage of marketing being primarily a tool for creating demand still holds true here. Don't fall for that bullshit.

    And thank god they cut out the whole "going to the MJ12 moon base" segment as well.
     
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  13. Infinitron I post news Patron

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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
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  14. Infinitron I post news Patron

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  15. Ash Arcane

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    It totally was. One of those 2 routes were usually highlighted vent coverings, or highlighted breakable walls. And don't give me that "but you can turn it off!" shit because the game was not designed with doing so in mind and it shows should you actually turn it off. You've got a desk absolutely strewn with static clutter and somewhere on it is one interactive candy bar. Playing where's wally/waldo in every. single. frame of exploration is not fun. Anyhow even if you do turn it off, the optional routes are still too hamfisted and obvious, like they were added carelessly last minute to meet the quota. Half the game you spend blasting/sneaking through tight office levels anyway, who on the design team though that'd be a good idea? Only in the HUBs does it come close to Deus Ex's superior level design principles. Anyway, in the game's credit there was a couple of well done levels, and overall it could have been worse. As far as modern level design goes, Human Revolution is up there with the best, which is pretty sad given how thoroughly flawed it is.
     
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  16. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    I don't understand this at all. Deus Ex is probably the best game that I've played when it comes combining story and gameplay, always providing an excellent reason on why you're doing what you're doing and never resorting to obvious filler or "gamey" sequences whose presence in the game isn't justified by the story. Even the side quests are tied seamlessly into the main narrative so that it never feels like you're doing stuff just for the sake of XP or whatever, but to achieve something that actually serves a purpose in the game world. The actual story does follow a kitchen sink approach (I think Warren Spector said in an interview that they were speficially trying to cram as many conspiracies into the game as possible), but the execution is very coherent, and it never feels like they included stuff just for the coolness factor alone. Some replays are clearly in order, indeed.

    I don't think Human Revolution was that bad in this either, to be honest. It just wasn't as good as Deus Ex was.

    I played HR multiple times, always without the object highlighting, and found no problem whatsoever (or maybe I actually missed a ton of stuff but didn't realize it). It's true, though, that the different routes were blatantly obvious almost every single time. Do you take the door in front of you, the vent ten feet away from you, or maybe go for the breakable wall twenty feet away? The tyranny of choice. There was barely any exploration to speak of, unless you think that crawling through all those vents qualifies.

    There were a couple of pretty great levels, though, and like you said they were usually found in the hubs. The police station early on in the game was especially good, as although the station itself was of course just an office complex filled with vents, you could approach the mission from two different directions, and the police angle brought a nice additional twist to it. Would've liked to see more of that rather than the "straight corridor with short branches here and there" school of level design.
     
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  17. Infinitron I post news Patron

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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    20 minutes before the end of the game, you break into a random missile silo and nuke Area 51. That's a Call of Duty AAAwesome plot development. We would have laughed at it if it happened in a modern game.
     
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  18. TZ3K Arcane

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    It wasn't random, they were going to nuke Vandenburg.
     
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  19. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    So? The plot of Deus Ex is unashamedly pulp at times, and it makes no real effort to hide it. The game does give you a reason for doing it, though.
     
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  20. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    That's not the point. I'm saying that the game had a tendency of throwing these curve-ball plot developments at you as an excuse to visit all sorts of wacky levels. I chalk it up to the development team's oldschool first person shooter (rather than narrative "RPG") development background.

    Note: This approach had its advantages. Sacrificing story coherency may be a cost worth paying for better gameplay.
     
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  21. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    Terrorists taking over the Statue of Liberty is Call of Duty AAAwesome plot development that would make you laugh in a modern game, and it happens in the very first mission.
    A group of people belonging to the wealthy elite creating an artificial virus to help them into world domination is something from a bad B movie.
    You've got Illuminati, men in black, massive underground complexes, secret laboratories, "aliens", Area 51, and big and small conspiracies everywhere you look, and at the end you get to decide the fate of the entire world.
    And of course they planned to put one level on the moon, which probably doesn't need any further comments.

    Yeah, you could say the game gives you "curve-ball plot developments", but you might as well just admit that you're completely tone-deaf, or just not paying attention. The setting is over-the-top all the way from the opening cutscene (but it still plays it all completely straight, which is great), but you shouldn't confuse it with how the story and the gameplay are merged. As has already been mentioned, these plot developments don't come out of nowhere, as they're usually hinted at much earlier in the game, often several times, and they're all in line with the rest of the setting. Launching a nuke is pretty low-key in this context, especially considering that at that point you've pretty much reached the endgame.
     
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  22. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I didn't really say anything about how the story and gameplay are merged, whatever exactly that means. I made a comment in response to somebody who said that Deus Ex's plot was more memorable than HR's (literally more memorable, that is, easier to recall, easier to comprehend in retrospect). I said that the game's plot is so long and rambling, going off on all sorts of weird tangents (over the top, as you say), that much of it is actually quite hard to remember exactly.

    My impression is that people tend to remember the highlights of Deus Ex. New York, Hong Kong.
     
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  23. Ash Arcane

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    Human Revolution's plot is more simple & straightforward that's for sure, so should be easier to recall. Perhaps it's even more grounded. Deus Ex does indeed throw a lot of curveballs, yet it's all relevant to the overarching narrative. You're probably right in that it was likely was an excuse to visit cool locations each time, but the execution was solid and it all came together coherently. That's what I personally was objecting to: that you called it incoherent.
     
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  24. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    New York and Hong Kong form about two thirds of the game, and depending on who you ask, the highlight of New York might be either Liberty Island, Hell's Kitchen, the UNATCO facility, or the naval shipyards. Hell, it might even be Battery Park, which is a small but memorable early-game area. Even in the last couple of places people have been bringing up areas like Vandenberg as prime examples of the level design of Deus Ex. For some people the highlight of the game seems to be the Ocean Lab. Different people remember different things, but it just shows how much good stuff there actually is in Deus Ex.
     
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  25. DeepOcean Arcane

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    The original Deus Ex has some crazy non sense plots like you wasting time on Hong Kong after a nano sword, you going on some crazy Iluminati catacombs on Paris and shit like that. The story is pretty cool until leaving New York and go all kinds of crazy afterwards, the coolness of Deus Ex is the level design that was so good that you kinda don't give a fuck why you are exploring all those places.
     
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