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Editorial Did BioWare dumb down Dragon Age ?

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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"DA III will come out by the end of next year relax. They still have DA 4 and 5 to make before "5 years with EA" will run out and Riccitiello will thankfully kill them off."

BIO's beenm with EA for what? 2-3 year snow? After 5 eyars, if BIO still exists, you should admit your mistake and apoloigize for being wrong as per usual.

btw, I'd be surprised if Ricci even has the power to 'kill' BIO. At best, EA would be allowed to 'release' BIo and they'll become independent again. Only the docs can kill BIO.
 

CrimsonAngel

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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Who cares about Bioware any more they stooped making RPG games a long time ago so let them do what every they want.
 

Silellak

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Chateaubryan said:
You skipped the best :

We also got to see the new conversation system. Dialogue has been simplified so that you only have up to three choices. Each choice is represented by an icon that indicates whether or it's a "good," "nasty," or "badass" choice. Good choices are represented by an olive branch, nasty by a Greek comedy mask, and badass by a red fist. This is an easy way to gauge what response your dialogue choices will produce.
Oh, and in case anyone still cares about...you know, accuracy...this isn't even a tiny bit true.

We put up to 5 choice options and 5 investigate options per dialog node. There is also a difference between choices (where you are actually deciding something) and giving you the opportunity to express yourself in different ways (which I think is quite cool, but not something I believe we have released any details on yet).
I imagine that's the only dialogue he saw? The demo is pretty action-packed and there's only the one conversation-- which, yes, has three options in it. As has been said elsewhere in this thread, however, that's not all we're limited to.

The personality options (which the article mis-characterizes, I'm afraid-- they may have been more his impression of the lines he saw rather than our explanation of them) have a bit more complexity as to what they affect. That's probably part of a larger conversation, however, so we'll talk about it at length later.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/3209421&lf=8

So, in a shocking turn of events, IGN is full of shit.

EDIT:
Whoops, Brother None beat me to it. Oh well, can't hurt to re-iterate the truth.
 

AnalogKid

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Volourn said:
They're RPGs. You can argue if they're bad or good rpgs, but theya re rpgs. Just like FO, MW, DTU, GBG, and a host of other games are rpgs. Qiuality has nothing to do what genre a game is.
I'll bite. I agree completely about quality not affecting genre, so we're good there. But how on earth could anyone define ME2 as an RPG? I know it's a hazy term without good definition, but some things are just obvious.

BTW, my preferred approach to defining "cRPG" is to think of it as simply a category label. Games x,y,z are in category 1 while games a,b,c are in category 2. This eliminates all the semantics and must-have feature bullshit. Compare ME2 to the category of "RPGs" or the category of "TPS", and it's so insanely clear that it's a 3rd person shooter that I honestly can't see how anyone could think otherwise. I'm not trying to troll.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Malachi said:
You know, this kind of reminds me of one of the first things I posted in this forum. I said that there was room for a KOTOR sequel to be even dumber, in that they could have Fable-like quest trails on the ground: red trail for Dark Side, blue trail for Light Side.

It was about Fable. Fable lacked Lightsabers and Jedi Powers.

AnalogKid said:
I'll bite. I agree completely about quality not affecting genre, so we're good there. But how on earth could anyone define ME2 as an RPG? I know it's a hazy term without good definition, but some things are just obvious.

Codex also covers non-RPGs with RPG elements, like Alpha Protocol.
If you can't understand, just look at all newsitems, determine which ones are "true" RPGs and then look at the number of replies. That's all that has to be said.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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Volourn said:
btw, I'd be surprised if Ricci even has the power to 'kill' BIO. At best, EA would be allowed to 'release' BIo and they'll become independent again. Only the docs can kill BIO.

Hmmm? What do you base that on? They're fully owned by BioWare, Muzyka and Zeschuk aren't owners, they're just EA VPs (or senior VPs). The BioWare Group is just a segment of the EA corporation, and as far as I know the brand name is in full ownership of EA.
 

Cassidy

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Volourn said:
The Codex cares. The Codex cares A LOT.

I am not The Codex, I have a mind of my own. But I suppose that the Dragon Age fanboys here will be seriously butthurt about this.
 

Volourn

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"BTW, my preferred approach to defining "cRPG" is to think of it as simply a category label. Games x,y,z are in category 1 while games a,b,c are in category 2. This eliminates all the semantics and must-have feature bullshit. Compare ME2 to the category of "RPGs" or the category of "TPS", and it's so insanely clear that it's a 3rd person shooter that I honestly can't see how anyone could think otherwise."

I'll bite. ME2 has a lot more in common with rpgs than action games or the make beleive category of 'third person shooters'm (which was a category evented only to counter people making fun of those calling ME2 a fps, btw).

ME2 basically plays like any other BIO rpg. except the specifc combat rules are more real time focused. It has stats, skills, C&C (quality, again, can be argued), story focused (how many fps/rpgs/.action games are so story focused?), joinable npcs 9again, how many fps/tps have that?), etc.,e tc.

So, while ME2 has action/shooter elements to it, its defining characetistics are typical of any rpg so if youa re one of the peons who label BG2, NWN, or DA as rpgs you should do the same for ME2.



"Hmmm? What do you base that on? They're fully owned by BioWare, Muzyka and Zeschuk aren't owners, they're just EA VPs (or senior VPs). The BioWare Group is just a segment of the EA corporation, and as far as I know the brand name is in full ownership of EA."

Based on logistics, common sense, what the docs have stated in the past, and how EA has treated BIO in comparison to other companies they have 'bought'.

Trust me when i say that the only way BIO gets killed by EA or anyone is if the docs okay it.

I am right here. If you trust me on anything trust me on this. It's fact.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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Volourn said:
Based on logistics, common sense, what the docs have stated in the past, and how EA has treated BIO in comparison to other companies they have 'bought'.

Trust me when i say that the only way BIO gets killed by EA or anyone is if the docs okay it.

I am right here. If you trust me on anything trust me on this. It's fact.

I'd like to but you don't seem to be basing it on anything. BioWare is just a brand name, and that brand name was bought by EA. There's a reason they could rename Mythic into "BioWare Mythic".

Common sense and "logistics" would actually say the BioWare name is owned by EA, since that's how purchases work. Treatment has nothing to do with it. When did the two VPs say "we still own the BioWare name"?

AnalogKid said:
BTW, my preferred approach to defining "cRPG" is to think of it as simply a category label. Games x,y,z are in category 1 while games a,b,c are in category 2. This eliminates all the semantics and must-have feature bullshit. Compare ME2 to the category of "RPGs" or the category of "TPS", and it's so insanely clear that it's a 3rd person shooter that I honestly can't see how anyone could think otherwise. I'm not trying to troll.

That doesn't make much sense. TPS is the combat system of ME2. Does that make Bloodlines an FPS? Fallout a TB isometric fighting game?
 

Silellak

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Volourn said:
ME2 has a lot more in common with rpgs than action games or the make beleive category of 'third person shooters'm (which was a category evented only to counter people making fun of those calling ME2 a fps, btw).
Hate to break it to you, but I've heard the term "third person shooter" for years now, all over the gaming community.

Hell, here's a quote from an article from as far back as 2001, commenting on the "move" of Halo from a TPS to a FPS:
Blue's News has been contacted by a Microsoft PR staff member who confirmed that the formerly third-person shooter Halo in development by Bungie Studios is now indeed first-person view when not driving a vehicle.
http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ArticleID=2336
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Silellak said:
Hate to break it to ya, but I've heard the term "third person shooter" for years now, all over the gaming community. Probably dates to around the time Resident Evil 4 or Gears of War came out, if not even before that.
Heretic II...

May be even older than that (probably is) but I can't be bothered looking things up.
 

Silellak

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Sceptic said:
Silellak said:
Hate to break it to ya, but I've heard the term "third person shooter" for years now, all over the gaming community. Probably dates to around the time Resident Evil 4 or Gears of War came out, if not even before that.
Heretic II...

May be even older than that (probably is) but I can't be bothered looking things up.
Yeah, I updated my original post with a link to an article from 2001 using that term.

In this thread we have learned that both Volourn AND IGN are full of shit. Surprising!
 

AnalogKid

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VentilatorOfDoom said:
Codex also covers non-RPGs with RPG elements, like Alpha Protocol.
If you can't understand, just look at all newsitems, determine which ones are "true" RPGs and then look at the number of replies. That's all that has to be said.
Fair and honest. You should talk to BioDocWhores about answering things. :)

On to Volly and BN: The reason I mentioned my "group similar things" definition is just because I didn't want to create yet another thread of definition jockeying. Both of you essentially replied with versions of "it has these features, so it's RPG" or "would you then define other games by feature x".

Try this thought experiment (or just really try it):

Play Fallout, BG, and Gothic ("action" representative). Then play Halo, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption. Finally, play ME2 and ask yourself which group it fits into? I should probably have been more broad and just called it a "shooter", I specified TPS because my first reflex was to write FPS, and I knew I'd get jumped becuase ME2 isn't first-person. One thing I'll say about ME2 that isn't overtly "shooter" is the conversations. The story, NPCs, and plot exist in most shooters nowadays, but I agree that ME2 had more conversations.

As for most of BN's examples, I'd say that those features you point out describe the combat, but the combat isn't the sole reson for existence of those games, like it is in ME2. ME2 is a lot of stuff hung around core gameplay of popamole. I think most people believe it's actually an improvement on ME, but I disliked ME2 specifically because they removed 90% of the "RPG" from it. You could say it's a question of focus. If I keep going, we're back to arguing definitions (which I'd be happy to do, and have done, but didn't want to get into right here right now). Maybe I've already gone too far down that road.

I seriously didn't think anyone could honestly think of ME2 as an RPG when I made the first post. The 'codex editors and newsposters obviously have their own definitions of what is appropriate for the 'codex to cover. I am questioning those implicit definitions with the obvious desire of trying to halt some decline, knowing full well that it's not really possible. If you don't reach for the heavens, you won't even get up to the tits, and all that...

Definitions change over time, _especially_ if they're just labels for groups of similar games. I hate moving definitions, but it's a fact of life. In today's world maybe "RPG" is the correct label to apply to ME2, AP, and similar games, but I think there's still enough counter-examples of "real" RPGs that we shouldn't label action games with stats as "RPG"s. Especially since nearly all modern action games have stats (and companions, and plots).

Almost all other genres are stealing "real RPG" elements (because they're good elements!). One could stretch the RPG label over them all, rendering it a completely useless label, or one could restrict the label to only the most "pure" examples, retaining some meaning but unfortunately excluding almost all modern games. Being a grognard, I choose the latter.
 

Volourn

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"Hate to break it to you, but I've heard the term "third person shooter" for years now, all over the gaming community."

hate to break itm you, but I was being tongue incheek. I know TPS is not new. I was mocking those who when trying to bash ME series they would label it a FPS and then cry they m,eant TPS since, obvious, labeling ME a FPS is beyond retarted since it's not even first person. And, they'd go all buthurt.

ME2 is an action rpg. It fits epfectly since its a rpg where the action ie. combat is heavily focused on real time, fast paced combat. But, every other aspect of the game is strictly rpgish.


"Play Fallout, BG, and Gothic ("action" representative). Then play Halo, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption. Finally, play ME2 and ask yourself which group it fits into?"

The first category espicially Gothic which is why Gothic is also considered an Action RPG.


"I'd like to but you don't seem to be basing it on anything. BioWare is just a brand name, and that brand name was bought by EA. There's a reason they could rename Mythic into "BioWare Mythic".

Common sense and "logistics" would actually say the BioWare name is owned by EA, since that's how purchases work. Treatment has nothing to do with it. When did the two VPs say "we still own the BioWare name"? "

Nothing happens to BIO ever unless the docs okay it. Period. This is simple fact.
 

Roguey

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hoverdog said:
also, the "journalist" here is a fucking moron. are the standard that low nowadays?
Daemon Hatfield grew up in Kansas, where his tolerance for questions like "Where’s Toto?" and "Shot any McCoys lately?" fell quickly. An athletically awkward child, his talents were to be put to use guiding ninja through outer space over countless afternoons with his Atari 2600, NES, Turbo-Grafx 16, and just about every other console since. Along with videogames, Daemon also realized at an early age he had a knack for writing music and acting, and was heavily involved in both activities throughout school.

In 2001, Daemon graduated from the University of Kansas with degrees in music and theatre. His travels took him to Chicago (now his favorite city) where he was an active member of the sketch comedy group New Batch of Genes, wrote musical scores for dozens of plays and short films, and performed as the mostly one-man rock outfit Monster-0.

Then came the fateful day he was surfing his favorite Website, IGN, and noticed an opening for a news editor position. Daemon made the trek out to San Francisco, and the rest is mostly the stuff of legend. His Game Scoop! podcast has been a global phenomenon largely credited with ending world hunger. He continues to compose for theatre and film, and his musical exploits can be tracked at Monster-0’s official Site.
I guess as long as you have a degree you're good?
 

AnalogKid

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Volourn said:
ME2 is an action rpg. It fits epfectly since its a rpg where the action ie. combat is heavily focused on real time, fast paced combat. But, every other aspect of the game is strictly rpgish.

"Play Fallout, BG, and Gothic ("action" representative). Then play Halo, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption. Finally, play ME2 and ask yourself which group it fits into?"

The first category espicially Gothic which is why Gothic is also considered an Action RPG.
Nice try, but no. Gothic was an action RPG for exactly the reasons you described, although you got confused and applied those reasons to ME2. As you suggested, remove the action from ME2 and what do you have?

- No stats
- No inventory
- No character creation
- No influence on the plot or its conclusion
(possible influence on how ME3 starts, but no influence in ME2)
- No influence on gameplay
(hollow collar-grabbing is fun, but so were Duke Nukem's one-liners)

All you have left are some companion choose-your-own adventure stories, which I grant were well written, though devoid of any "game" and devoid of any impact on how the player will experience the rest of the game. What's left is the framework of a story-driven shooter. More and possibly better story than previous shooters, but we already agreed that quality isn't germane.

Not that any one of the things in my list define an RPG, but without ANY of them? Time to stop trolling now.
 

Ruprekt

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The closest comparison to ME2 I can think of is wing commander 3/4. Replace the space-sim part with fps, and the fmv with rendered cutscenes.

Wing commander had conversation choices and both games were going for the cinematic-experience thing.

I guess the differences are ME2 you get to pick dialog options more often; on the other hand the wing commanders had an actual branching narrative (one ending had you defending earth in a last ditch stand, another taking the offensive to kiltrath, and at least one more path).
 

AnalogKid

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Well according to Volly, it was recently invented for ME bashers. So I guess it's understandable. ;)
 

AnalogKid

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Ruprekt said:
Thinking about it... why don't bioware make a space sim with me2 style cutscenes?
Yea, verily that would be cool. But I don't know how you'd find cover in your space fighter, so I don't know if they could sell it to a publisher.
 

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