Eternity Did the PoE series fail commercially because it didn't use the D&D ruleset or was it something else?

[Harry Easter]

Project Eternity crowdfunding started 2012 with the promise of a new game that's reminiscent of old Infinity Engine titles.
You cannot easily get someone who has never played an infinity engine game to play POE with its pre-rendered backgrounds and "complex" RTWP. Original Sin 1+2 are games that are a lot easier to get into for someone who has no experience with RPGs.

Maybe, but in D:OS you can tricks a lot, which is part of the fun and is encouraged by the game, while PoE mostly concentrated on the combat. Fooling around is fun and I think a lot of players appreciate that too. But in the end it was the MP, I think. Even if you didn't like the game alone, having friends to play with you and actively watching each other screw-up was maybe the best idea Larian ever had. That's modern and good idea, especially in the time of the internet. Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

And we shouldn't forget, that BG back then was supposed to be a game for beginners (even if it was very hard for those), since it had a more approachable interface, it looked prettier and the computer did most of the stuff for you (and I still think that the Mainchar was tweaked, because I had some shitty builds and still killed a lot of enemies back then).

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Project Eternity crowdfunding started 2012 with the promise of a new game that's reminiscent of old Infinity Engine titles.
You cannot easily get someone who has never played an infinity engine game to play POE with its pre-rendered backgrounds and "complex" RTWP. Original Sin 1+2 are games that are a lot easier to get into for someone who has no experience with RPGs.

Maybe, but in D:OS you can tricks a lot, which is part of the fun and is encouraged by the game, while PoE mostly concentrated on the combat. Fooling around is fun and I think a lot of players appreciate that too. But in the end it was the MP, I think. Even if you didn't like the game alone, having friends to play with you and actively watching each other screw-up was maybe the best idea Larian ever had. That's modern and good idea, especially in the time of the internet. Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

And we shouldn't forget, that BG back then was supposed to be a game for beginners (even if it was very hard for those), since it had a more approachable interface, it looked prettier and the computer did the most for you (and I still think that the Mainchar was tweaked, because I had some shitty builds and still killed a lot of enemies back then).

no, people over analyze this. PoE sucked because Josh decided to try his hand at designing his own rules and shoving it down our throats. Everyone lost interest after that. Lots of words were written about why.... maybe it was because nostalgia? Or maybe nobody likes games like that anymore?? no....all BS.....all wrong..

If they had simply licensed D20 instead of Joshes, "FUCK YOU, SUCK MY DICK: THE RPG", the entire landscape of CRPGs would be different right now. Instead josh thought it his opportunity to try out his awesome RPG rules he had been saving and planning since he was 13, and he thought he had a captive audience. Lots of developers seem to think RPG's are RPG's are RPG's and that there are isometric and turned based RPG's but don't seem to think that the actual systems matter that much. Joshes invention went over like a wet fart, and completely ruined the entire fucking production.

Making it turned based was a desperate last gamble, but it was too late, nobody cared anymore. I guarantee if they had simply licensed D20 from the start things would be quite different. First of all, lots of saved work. They had to fine tune and implement lots of rules and shit, and for what? Why? What was the point? So we could get vympyres or whatever the fuck instead of vampires? Jesus Christ. 2nd of all people would have liked it, a BIG PLUS WHEN SELLING A GAME I HEAR! Everything would have been different and all for the better, but it was not to be.

 

[Jeru]

Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

Nah. Pathfinder is showing that there IS audience for BG/BG2-like game today. POE didn't work well enough because of POE and not because potential audience is not there anymore.

 

[glass blackbird]

Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

Nah. Pathfinder is showing that there IS audience for BG/BG2-like game today. POE didn't work well enough because of POE and not because potential audience is not there anymore.

maybe someday they will actually fix their broken-ass game

 

[ArchAngel]

Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

Nah. Pathfinder is showing that there IS audience for BG/BG2-like game today. POE didn't work well enough because of POE and not because potential audience is not there anymore.

maybe someday they will actually fix their broken-ass game

At least it can be fixed, I am not sure same can be said for your brain.

 

[Lacrymas]

Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

Nah. Pathfinder is showing that there IS audience for BG/BG2-like game today. POE didn't work well enough because of POE and not because potential audience is not there anymore.

Do we have numbers regarding PF:K's sales? If they aren't more than PoE2, which I suspect they aren't, then it doesn't prove anything, does it. It just proves that you can create such games in Eastern Europe on a shoe string budget compared to 'Murica, the land of the free (rofl), but that isn't surprising and new.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

Nah. Pathfinder is showing that there IS audience for BG/BG2-like game today. POE didn't work well enough because of POE and not because potential audience is not there anymore.

Do we have numbers regarding PF:K's sales? If they aren't more than PoE2, which I suspect they aren't, then it doesn't prove anything, does it. It just proves that you can create such games in Eastern Europe on a shoe string budget compared to 'Murica, the land of the free (rofl), but that isn't surprising and new.

Nothing was stopping Obsidian from moving their HQ to any of the other 49 states that have drastically lower costs of operation.

 

[glass blackbird]

Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

Nah. Pathfinder is showing that there IS audience for BG/BG2-like game today. POE didn't work well enough because of POE and not because potential audience is not there anymore.

maybe someday they will actually fix their broken-ass game

At least it can be fixed, I am not sure same can be said for your brain.

i think it's wonderful that one of the big features of the "enhanced edition," mercenary advisors, has been broken from its implementation and is still not fixed

 

[Lacrymas]

Nothing was stopping Obsidian from moving their HQ to any of the other 49 states that have drastically lower costs of operation.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I checked Steamspy numbers, both PF:K and PoE2 are between 200k and 500k. Yeah, it isn't specific, but I think it's safe to assume they are around the same number, I doubt PF:K is 500k while PoE2 is 250k or something like that. It's possible, though. Even if they have such a discrepancy, I doubt 500k copies would've been enough for Obs, considering PoE1 sold around 1 million units and it's not out there to assume they were expecting something similar. They shouldn't have expected that, given the abysmal sales of White March, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Jeru]

Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

Nah. Pathfinder is showing that there IS audience for BG/BG2-like game today. POE didn't work well enough because of POE and not because potential audience is not there anymore.

Do we have numbers regarding PF:K's sales? If they aren't more than PoE2, which I suspect they aren't, then it doesn't prove anything, does it. It just proves that you can create such games in Eastern Europe on a shoe string budget compared to 'Murica, the land of the free (rofl), but that isn't surprising and new.

Not that I know of, but I guess we'll know at least estimates of success sooner or later.

Considering that PoE was well known and talked about (for an indie game), had 4x times bigger kickstarter and was from western developer (higher costs true, but more press and interest usually) and Pathfinder came out of nowhere and barely anyone heard of it before it released (outside codex hehe) then it is too early to judge.

 

[Sergiu64]

Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

Nah. Pathfinder is showing that there IS audience for BG/BG2-like game today. POE didn't work well enough because of POE and not because potential audience is not there anymore.

Do we have numbers regarding PF:K's sales? If they aren't more than PoE2, which I suspect they aren't, then it doesn't prove anything, does it. It just proves that you can create such games in Eastern Europe on a shoe string budget compared to 'Murica, the land of the free (rofl), but that isn't surprising and new.

Not that I know of, but I guess we'll know at least estimates of success sooner or later.

Considering that PoE was well known and talked about (for an indie game), had 4x times bigger kickstarter and was from western developer (higher costs true, but more press and interest usually) and Pathfinder came out of nowhere and barely anyone heard of it before it released (outside codex hehe) then it is too early to judge.

The market for the game is the market for the game. The market doesn't automatically grow because you have a bigger kickstarter. You might have reached more of the market via a bigger Kickstarter I suppose - but its just as likely that you just reached that portion of the market before you delivered your game as opposed to after you did.

It does sound like the Market for these types of games is fairly small and you need to develop any products for that market cheaply to make due - which does mean staying out of the 1st world I guess. Sucks to be us, what can I say...

 

[Jeru]

The market for the game is the market for the game. The market doesn't automatically grow because you have a bigger kickstarter. You might have reached more of the market via a bigger Kickstarter I suppose - but its just as likely that you just reached that portion of the market before you delivered your game as opposed to after you did.

It does sound like the Market for these types of games is fairly small and you need to develop any products for that market cheaply to make due - which does mean staying out of the 1st world I guess. Sucks to be us, what can I say...

You're assuming that sales numbers are due to market size and not due to other factors. That is propably assuming too much. We just don't know atm.

i.e. IF sequel of a game sold worse than it's precesesor it could mean that either market got smaller in those few years or because market didn't like precedesor enough and it affected sequel numbers or because of even something entirelly else. Same for any game in any market segment basically.

i.e. 2 - Public as far as I perceived it did not expect that DOS games will sell as well as they did, and those smaller expectations propably came from assuming that market for isometic RPGs them is smaller than it actually was. Just because some games sell better than expected and some others sell worse than game audience/public expects does not necessarily define market size.

 

[Lacrymas]

i.e. 2 - Public as far as I perceived it did not expect that DOS games will sell as well as they did, and those smaller expectations probably came from assuming that market for isometric RPGs them is smaller than it actually was. Just because some games sell better than expected and some others sell worse than game audience/public expects does not necessarily define market size.

Tbh, I think the inflated sales number came from the co-op crowd and not the isometric RPG crowd. My sister's ex-boyfriend and I played co-op (i.e. can be played on one machine) games frequently (games that I could stomach) and let me tell you, good ones aren't easy to find, hell, any at all are hard to find on the PC, so that's also a pretty starved market. We couldn't bear D:OS, though, it has a bajillion problems that ruin it, but it IS one of the best co-op games out there bar none. This speaks to the overall quality of co-op games and not the quality of D:OS, so don't be fooled. We had much more fun playing Rayman Origins and Legends. Either way, my point is that these numbers come from the co-op crowd and not the iso RPG crowd, I've seen normie reviews say it's their first RPG or that they usually don't like them, but playing it with a buddy helped. I don't know how exactly it helps, I was puking the entire time I was playing it co-op, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I tried to play D:OS2 co-op and really disliked it. Playing an RPG at someone else's pace isn't fun at all. I like to explore every nook and cranny and they kept just barreling forward and doing shit.

 

[Jeru]

i.e. 2 - Public as far as I perceived it did not expect that DOS games will sell as well as they did, and those smaller expectations probably came from assuming that market for isometric RPGs them is smaller than it actually was. Just because some games sell better than expected and some others sell worse than game audience/public expects does not necessarily define market size.

Tbh, I think the inflated sales number came from the co-op crowd and not the isometric RPG crowd. My sister's ex-boyfriend and I played co-op (i.e. can be played on one machine) games frequently (games that I could stomach) and let me tell you, good ones aren't easy to find, hell, any at all are hard to find on the PC, so that's also a pretty starved market. We couldn't bear D:OS, though, it has a bajillion problems that ruin it, but it IS one of the best co-op games out there bar none. This speaks to the overall quality of co-op games and not the quality of D:OS, so don't be fooled. We had much more fun playing Rayman Origins and Legends. Either way, my point is that these numbers come from the co-op crowd and not the iso RPG crowd, I've seen normie reviews say it's their first RPG or that they usually don't like them, but playing it with a buddy helped. I don't know how exactly it helps, I was puking the entire time I was playing it co-op, but that's neither here nor there.

Maybe, but I am not entirelly convinced.

I was under impression that it was combat that catapulted whole two part series into relevancy. That coupled with good graphics, polish and improvements in DOS2 over DOS1 (yes I know decline in many fields, but also plent of improvements in many others parts of experience).

Propably Larian knows best if they do collect telemetry. Any idea if they do and shared data about co-op numbers?

As for wider Isometric RPG market we're coming relatively close to conclusion on whole genre market situation in current times propably. Once titles like Wasteland 3, BG3 (if it will be isometric) will release and other smaller studios/indies will decide whether to make sequels or move to other genres instead then it will be clearer picture.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

As for wider Isometric RPG market we're coming relatively close to conclusion on whole genre market situation in current times propably. Once titles like Wasteland 3, BG3 (if it will be isometric) will release and other smaller studios/indies will decide whether to make sequels or move to other genres instead then it will be clearer picture.

meh
Go back 5 years and Larian was some odd ball AA studio trying to find its niche. If they decide to move onto greener pastures, they'll surely be replaced.

 

[agris]

Obsidian were AA, Larian were like A+A/2

 

[Abu Antar]

I tried to play D:OS2 co-op and really disliked it. Playing an RPG at someone else's pace isn't fun at all. I like to explore every nook and cranny and they kept just barreling forward and doing shit.

The only person I can play these types of games with is my brother. We both like to explore and mess around.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I tried to play D:OS2 co-op and really disliked it. Playing an RPG at someone else's pace isn't fun at all. I like to explore every nook and cranny and they kept just barreling forward and doing shit.

I'm going to open a can of worms here, but that's co-op in a nutshell. Co-op is something everybody says they want but that nobody actually ever tries or even enjoys once they try it. Co-op only really works in shit like arcade games. For the vast majority of single player games, it's simply unworkable.

 

[Artyoan]

Co-op is fine after I've already played it through solo. That way all the pacing/exploration and decision issues can be set by the other person.

 

[sullynathan]

POE is boring and D:OS isn't. The public quickly realized that so the former flopped.

 

[Chippy]

Project Eternity crowdfunding started 2012 with the promise of a new game that's reminiscent of old Infinity Engine titles.
You cannot easily get someone who has never played an infinity engine game to play POE with its pre-rendered backgrounds and "complex" RTWP. Original Sin 1+2 are games that are a lot easier to get into for someone who has no experience with RPGs.

Maybe, but in D:OS you can tricks a lot, which is part of the fun and is encouraged by the game, while PoE mostly concentrated on the combat. Fooling around is fun and I think a lot of players appreciate that too. But in the end it was the MP, I think. Even if you didn't like the game alone, having friends to play with you and actively watching each other screw-up was maybe the best idea Larian ever had. That's modern and good idea, especially in the time of the internet. Pillars counted too much on the idea, that the old school-players still want to play a game like BG2 and will like it. Which they didn't, even if it had some good ideas, because nostalgia is a monster.

And we shouldn't forget, that BG back then was supposed to be a game for beginners (even if it was very hard for those), since it had a more approachable interface, it looked prettier and the computer did the most for you (and I still think that the Mainchar was tweaked, because I had some shitty builds and still killed a lot of enemies back then).

no, people over analyze this. PoE sucked because Josh decided to try his hand at designing his own rules and shoving it down our throats. Everyone lost interest after that. Lots of words were written about why.... maybe it was because nostalgia? Or maybe nobody likes games like that anymore?? no....all BS.....all wrong..

If they had simply licensed D20 instead of Joshes, "FUCK YOU, SUCK MY DICK: THE RPG", the entire landscape of CRPGs would be different right now. Instead josh thought it his opportunity to try out his awesome RPG rules he had been saving and planning since he was 13, and he thought he had a captive audience. Lots of developers seem to think RPG's are RPG's are RPG's and that there are isometric and turned based RPG's but don't seem to think that the actual systems matter that much. Joshes invention went over like a wet fart, and completely ruined the entire fucking production.

Making it turned based was a desperate last gamble, but it was too late, nobody cared anymore. I guarantee if they had simply licensed D20 from the start things would be quite different. First of all, lots of saved work. They had to fine tune and implement lots of rules and shit, and for what? Why? What was the point? So we could get vympyres or whatever the fuck instead of vampires? Jesus Christ. 2nd of all people would have liked it, a BIG PLUS WHEN SELLING A GAME I HEAR! Everything would have been different and all for the better, but it was not to be.

Edit:

Spoiler

 

[Shadenuat]

it's fampyres I think
fampers
fampyrs??

...fuck.

 

[Efe]

Open Game Content (or OGC)

...the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity....

Product Identity (or PI)

...product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark...

so yes, they could use the ruleset but it seems they would be wide open if wotc decided some abilities,characters,stories, themes etc were their product identity
and dnd has a shit ton of those to overlap for sure

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Open Game Content (or OGC)

...the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity....

Product Identity (or PI)

...product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark...

so yes, they could use the ruleset but it seems they would be wide open if wotc decided some abilities,characters,stories, themes etc were their product identity
and dnd has a shit ton of those to overlap for sure

Misconception, they have to specifically mark what is PI(of which those can be), not everything that falls under those categories is automatically PI(or else the OGL would be worthless.) Also, wotc can't retroactively decide something is PI after they've released it under the OGL. You can find all 5e SRD here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srd
everything NOT explicitly listed as PI is under the OGL e.g., that is everything mentioned in the SRD sans

The following items are designated Product Identity, as defined in Section 1(e) of the Open Game License Version 1.0a, and are subject to the conditions set forth in Section 7 of the OGL, and are not Open Content: Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master, Monster Manual, d20 System, Wizards of the Coast, d20 (when used as a trademark), Forgotten Realms, Faerûn, proper names (including those used in the names of spells or items), places, Underdark, Red Wizard of Thay, the City of Union, Heroic Domains of Ysgard, Ever-‐‑Changing Chaos of Limbo, Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, Infinite Layers of the Abyss, Tarterian Depths of Carceri, Gray Waste of Hades, Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, Nine Hells of Baator, Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus, Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Twin Paradises of Bytopia, Blessed Fields of Elysium, Wilderness of the Beastlands, Olympian Glades of Arborea,Concordant Domain of the Outlands, Sigil, Lady of Pain, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar’ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-‐‑ti.

BTW, you missed this part in your quote:

...and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content;