Difficult to learn easy to master

[Nutmeg]

My other favorite gaming forum is shmups.system11.org.

In this thread, the user Vanguard describes most Western games as "difficult to learn and easy to master", and lists X-com as an example.

I whole heartedly agree. In my personal top 100 games, many of the Western made ones share this flaw, and I only really like them as sandboxes. For example, I only return to X-com when a good mod comes out. Speaking of which I have to checkout the X-com files soon.

What are your favorite Western games that don't fall into this trap?

i.e. what are some good Western made games that you think are both difficult to learn AND difficult to master?

 

[Grauken]

Lots of roguelikes

Steel Panthers

 

[RoBoBOBR]

dwarf fortress
realms of arkania HD

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

What would be an example of a game that's the other way around, easy to learn but difficult to master ?

 

[Grauken]

Lots of shmups are like that, lots of arcade games, think Tetris

 

[Catacombs]

dwarf fortress

More like hard to learn and easy to walk into a void because one doesn't simply master the game.

 

[Citizen]

What would be an example of a game that's the other way around, easy to learn but difficult to master ?

Only games with human opponents, where the rules are intuitive and not too complex, and the challenge comes from another player. (so you are fighying an opponent, not the rules/system)

Examples would be: chess, go, renju, multiplayer arena shooters, multiplayer RTS and so on. Basically any multiplayer game with easy ro learn rules and not very assymetrical gameplay

 

[Raghar]

What would be an example of a game that's the other way around, easy to learn but difficult to master ?

Chess, Shogi, Go, RPS, office lady wars.

 

[blrrmmmff]

Those battle hardened office ladies can be tough opponents.

 

[Fishy]

Rocksmith, The Operational Art of War IV, Sword of the Stars: The Pit, Dwarf Fortress, Redout, AI War, VVVVVV, Goat Simulator.

 

[Nutmeg]

Lots of shmups are like that, lots of arcade games, think Tetris

Adding scoring or ranking to other genres also does the trick e.g. (earlier? Have no idea what's going on with this franchise now) Fire Emblem games. Easy to move your little dudes and watch the animation, hard to get S rank in every mission and a good overall rank.

Rocksmith, The Operational Art of War IV, Sword of the Stars: The Pit, Dwarf Fortress, Redout, AI War, VVVVVV, Goat Simulator.

Challenge mode: something older than 2010

 

[Fishy]

Rocksmith, The Operational Art of War IV, Sword of the Stars: The Pit, Dwarf Fortress, Redout, AI War, VVVVVV, Goat Simulator.

Challenge mode: something older than 2010

The Operational Art of War III, Nethack, Dwarf Fortress, Skyroads, AI War.

 

[howlingFantods]

Not a video game, but Dominion is a great example of an intuitive game w/ a lot of complexity at top level play.

It’s so EASY to learn: you basically only need to remember the Mnemonic device “ABC”.
Action phase
Buy phase
Cleanup phase

The complexity comes from the incredible amount of interactions between cards. Each buy phase is a complex problem of potential synergy and opportunity cost.

Goddam it’s a good game

 

[DJOGamer PT]

What would be an example of a game that's the other way around, easy to learn but difficult to master ?

Good action games.

 

[Nutmeg]

Nethack

Disagree with Nethack tbh.

Skyroads looks pretty rad though.

Realms of Arkania HD

Not sure if serious lol.

 

[Fishy]

Nethack

Disagree with Nethack tbh.

On what grounds? I'm a bit surprised since you give Fire Emblem a pass on the basis that getting S scores requires effort/mastery, accepting that mastering a game is different from merely beating it. I'm not sure how Nethack differs if you look at consecutive ascensions, ascension time/turns or other additional challenges. For old data just look at http://www.codehappy.net/nethack/data.htm. Satisfying either of the criteria used to define expertise (not even 'mastery') isn't easy. To reuse your wording, easy to move your little @ and ascend for the first time with spoilers, a lucky run and using all the tools available, hard to ascend consecutively and/or ascend with some combinations of conducts. As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, most roguelikes with a defined win condition would fall in that category on the basis of time attack/restrictions (the entire nethack/angband families, ADOM, DCSS...).

Joking about Skyroads though, put it down as I didn't have any pre-2010 western antigrav game to replace Redout with. :p
It's good fun to clear once though, they have a few creative levels in there for such a simple concept.

 

[Nutmeg]

I guess the difference is that mastery should be obtainable through observation, reasoning and practice (only applicable for games where execution matters i.e. action games) rather than trial and error. The solution space also needs to vary a bit.

My experience with Nethack is it doesn't really leave much room for reasoning except "wonder what Proudfoot thought should happen if I respond to this situation this way".