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Divinity Divinity: Original Sin 2 - Definitive Edition

sullynathan

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I don't think there's anyone else besides CDPR with so much built-up goodwill in the mainstream. I guess free goodies is cool and I haven't yet played this game.

CDPR clearly do spend a lot of time and money cultivating goodwill, fine, not everyone has the budget or inclination for that. What I don't understand is why other developers seem to do almost nothing. It's not hard to generate goodwill - plenty of the "free dlc" for witcher 3 was clearly just various bits and pieces that presumably couldn't be finished in time for release. When you think about the fact that many games spend more on marketing than development (sometimes twice as much or more) it seems intuitive that you might do a bit of development for the sake of marketing, especially whan various artists or writers or whatever are idle as you work towards release. Yet almost no one does.
Pretty much every big dev nowadays gives free dlc. (EA, Ubisoft, R*, Activision, Capcom) They just have bad reputations because they've "wronged" games and continuously do microtransactions while giving free dlc.

It takes a long time to rebuild a good reputation especially when many people have a negative impression about your company.
 

deama

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Does anyone know of a mod that doubles or triples the effects of attributes? Or maybe adds another + to attributes?
 

drgames

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Played the game, and it is one of the best game you will never finish. No wonder people like it, they can't even finish fiirst chapter.
There are so many metaphors that I can use, but I think the fittest is "Golden Turd".
After this experience, my deepest regret is that I trusted rpgcodex users' opinions.
 
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LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
Report on Swen's GDC talk, a kind of development hell that was: https://www.usgamer.net/articles/th...-divinity-original-sin-2s-painful-development

"There Was a Bit of Stress:" Swen Vincke Recounts Divinity: Original Sin 2's Painful Development
From testing problems to a constantly expanding word count, Divinity: Original Sin 2's development was anything but smooth sailing.


In another life, I was a curriculum developer in charge of writing English lessons. Our process early on was to have someone write a lesson, then have everyone make notes on the document, which would then be addressed by the writer. Lessons wound up taking forever to finalize, and we quickly moved on to another process.

I found myself flashing back to those days when Larian Studios founder Swen Vincke posted a screencap of a Google Doc containing notes on the story for Divinity: Original Sin 2. This massive story document was circulated between nine writers and various higher-ups for notes, all of which were subsequently addressed. It didn't go well.

"We were very polite people, and we answered every one of the comments," Vincke said a tad ruefully. Eventually, in order to get the project finished, politeness had to go out the window. But that was only the beginning of a grueling development process for Larian Studios.

It was all part of an attempt to build and improve upon the well-received Divinity: Original Sin, which had been released in 2014. Larian Studios had a cult following before Divinity: Original Sin, but its clever use of environmental combat, customization, and co-op play won it a new group of fans. It was good enough that I put Divinity: Original Sin at number 20 in our Top 25 RPGs of All Time list.


The Divinity: Original Sin 2 story document had a problem with too many tooks, Vincke said. | Kat Bailey / GDC 2019

The sequel brought with it further improvements to the combat, the story, and the customization. It included the ability to play as one of several character achetypes, all with their own backstories, as well as original customized characters. It further solidified Larian Studios as a rising studio in the RPG space. But as Vincke explained, it had its share of problems.

Over the course of his hour long talk at GDC, Vincke outlined the challenges that the Divinity: Original Sin 2 development team faced, many of which pertained to the story. Here are some general highlights.
  • Larian Studio was absolutely terrified of Middle-earth: Shadow of War, which was set to be released at roughly the same time as Divinity: Original Sin 2. "We thought they would obliterate us," Vincke said. As it turned out, the opposite was true—Shadow of War struggled to gain traction and was quickly forgotten. But one consequence was that Larian Studios felt pressure to release on time lest it be overwhelmed by other triple-A releases. This meant that the team was still making changes to the script the week of Divinity: Original Sin 2's release.
  • Out of the nine writers that Larian brought on to the project, only a few had experience writing dialogue trees. The rest were classical writers or TV writers. This brought a different flavor to Divinity: Original Sin 2, but it meant that Larian had to spend a lot of time training the writers to the point where they could handle complex dialogue trees. "Scripters would setup a situation, and writers were supposed to expand on that. And then the writers broke all the flags and conditions, and the scripters would complain... There was a bit of stress," Vincke said.
  • Timezones were a huge problem. Larian Studios initially decided to develop every act in parallel, with each studio being responsible for a single act. But a huge bottleneck soon developed as Vincke struggled to review dialogue coming in from Ghent while he was in Quebec. Ultimately, Larian shifted its resources to developing one act at a time, which Vincke says "saved the project."
  • The decision to voice record all of the dialogue was made in early 2017, about nine months from release. Larian Studios contracted out several voice recording studios and setup an automated pipeline to account for the roughly 600,000 lines of dialogue that needed to be recorded. By July, Vincke was making an emergency call to the contractors to tell them that the script had ballooned to more than a million words. Larian hadn't accounted for all the alternative dialogue that still needed to be added to fully flesh out the quests, which resulted in a massively expanded word ocunt.
  • With changes coming in constantly, QA was quickly overwhelmed. "Imagine you're working in QA, and you have a test plan, but your test plan keeps changing because people keep flagging things as ready when it's not ready," Vincke said. Worse, Divinity: Original Sin 2 was incredibly long, with a single run taking up to two weeks to complete. Ultimately, automation saved much of the project, but journal bugs meant that one reviewer gave Divinity: Original Sin 2 a 7 out of 10, dragging it from a 94 on Metacritic to a 93. It was only one point ultimately, but for Vincke, it was a deduction that didn't need to happen.
  • Divinity: Original Sin 2's massive word count caught up with it at launch when Larian failed to finish the Russian localization on time. This resulted in Divinity: Original Sin 2 being review bombed by angry Russians, driving its Steam approval rating down from 96 percent to 70 percent. The team found itself doing damage control on Twitch and elsewhere, finally releasing a beta version of the translation to appease Russian players. "It was our own fault because we changed so many things," Vincke admitted.
All in all, it was a rough development cycle for Larian Studios. But it all worked out in the end. Divinity: Original Sin 2 received critical acclaim when it was released, including a perfect score from USG. Vincke called making a 120 hour game in two years a "huge accomplishment by the team."

"My lesson is that not compromising on quality is a good thing, but you need to figure out how to make the production work with it or you're going to keep running into problems," Vincke said.

Divinity: Original Sin 2 is now available on PC, Xbox One, and PS4. You can find the rest of our GDC 2019 coverage here.

 

taomcio

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
Frankly, they should have hired some kind of professional editor who would trim down unecessery filler dialogues instead of adding more.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
These AA studios have a universal problem with writing recently and I'm not entirely sure why. It's not only due to editing, it's something deeper. They read like an amateur fantasy novelist's first book, right down to all the same mistakes and cliches they fall into. Larian, InXile and Obsidian show signs of lack of narrative vision and having too many cooks in the kitchen, but I warned about that when they announced how many writers they have. I personally have worked in an environment where many people are assigned to the same artistic project and it was hell, there was *no way* the end product could've been in any way coherent. We managed to come to a general tone consensus, but everything beyond that was impossible, and the AA studios' end results remind me of that time. We know InXile's problems, though. ...and Obsidian's.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Another summary: https://www.pcgamesn.com/divinity-original-sin-2/divinity-original-sin-2-story-armour

Writing Divinity: Original Sin 2’s story required coordination on a global scale
divinity-original-sin-2-580x334.jpg


Creating a bigger, better story that showed off their game’s reactive world was one of the main goals for the developers of Divinity: Original Sin 2. Larian hired a team of nine writers to create it, thinking that would be plenty to tackle the task. But between writing and scripting, Original Sin 2’s main story wasn’t complete until just ten months before the game shipped.

Larian founder Swen Vincke talked about the making of Divinity: Original Sin 2 to an audience of developers at GDC today in San Francisco. He explained how the team expanded to four studios around the globe in the ramp up to production on the game, and how the monumental writing task they had set out for themselves created a host of knock-on problems for the rest of the development team.

In addition to the sprawling main story, Larian decided to create origin stories for each of the key characters you can play in the game. In Divinity: Original Sin 2, you can have four characters in your party, and each has an origin. If you don’t include one of these characters in your party, you’ll still encounter them in the world – and that means their stories and origins had to be told in both first- and third-person perspectives.

When work began on the story script, Larian relied on shared Google docs that gave everyone access to the text and the ability to make notes. Vincke said this, perhaps predictably, resulted in total chaos.

Not only that, he said, but most of the nine writers who were actually hired to create the story – while accomplished in fields like TV and traditional narrative – didn’t have experience in interactive dialogue writing. They wound up needing training in order to adapt to games writing.

Finally, since Divinity: Original Sin 2 wasn’t going to use any ‘story armour’ to protect important NPCs from death, the story had to continue to work even if players decided to kill quest-givers or other important characters. The story stayed in flux, causing headaches for everyone involved in the production.

“Every single time we changed the story, those changes had to propagate out into the documentation, and that caused a lot of problems,” Vincke said.

Even after finishing the main story, Larian’s writers were still making changes. One character, Sybel, still had changes being made to her origin story just a week before the game finally launched.

In the end, Vincke said, the highly iterative approach to creating Divinity: Original Sin 2 proved worth the efforts and heated discussions. The game scored well in reviews and sold well, even after a rough launch week.

“It’s a testament to the fact that all that iteration, and a refusal to compromise on quality, paid off,” Vincke said.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
And another: https://www.pcgamer.com/divinity-original-sin-2s-locations-were-initially-all-part-of-one-big-map/

Divinity: Original Sin 2's locations were initially all part of one big map
Larian shows off some of Divinity's cut content. Fort Joy, Driftwood, and Arx were once connected.

inbLf4eCkxXGwojKMNJQq4-320-80.jpg


A lot went wrong during the development of Divinity: Original Sin 2. In the end, it was hard to tell: Larian's RPG was our 2017 game of the year, and is one of the deepest, most enthralling RPGs in years. But in a GDC panel last week, Larian founder Swen Vincke went over the challenges his team faced during development. It turns out writing a massive and extremely open-ended RPG is pretty tough.

Vincke talked in detail about working out the writing process for Original Sin 2, issues with game balance, the controversial armor system, and other issues they ran into. The most interesting detail to me was the world Larian had initially planned for OS2's multi-act structure. In the finished game, Act 1 takes place on the prison island of Fort Joy. It's a huge sandbox, dense enough to last for 20 or more hours of adventuring, with multiple avenues to eventually win your freedom. Act 2 takes you to the mainland and another large area called Reaper's Coast. In Act 3 you travel to the Nameless Isle, and in Act 4 you're mainly in the city of Arx.

The original plan, though, called for all of these locations to be connected on a huge world map. Here's a picture of that map from Vincke's talk.

But that's not the really crazy part: This wasn't even going to be the only map in the game!

"Once we started realizing that we were in trouble and that we weren't going to be able to make everything that we planned on, we had to make cuts," Vincke said. "Originally Original Sin 2 had a map for the human lands, one for the dwarven lands, one for the undead, basically for each of the races present in the game. What you're looking at here is a map of the human lands, which contains the city of Arx, Driftwood, and Fort Joy, all on one map. Which is essentially the entire game. That gives you an idea of the level of cuts that we had to do."

Each of the major playable characters in Original Sin 2 has a lengthy origin story that ties into their questlines throughout the game. Those origin stories were originally going to be depicted in locations in those characters' homelands.

"Each of these maps had a lot of action going on, and when we cut it, we suddenly started cutting into what was supposed to be the real estate for the origin stories," Vincke said. "So that meant that we had to go and change our origin stories again. This constant ping-ponging between adapting to the fact that we were going to be late and having to make cuts had an impact on the story. The fact that it had an impact on the story meant that the rest of the production was going to be delayed. We struggled quite a lot with that, but eventually managed to have it under control."

Every game ends up with cut content during development, as the realities of what can be done in time and on budget rarely line up with early plans. Even without those other maps, Original Sin 2 is a massive game. It took me 104 hours to finish a single co-op playthrough, and I could easily play it two more times to see the many paths I didn't take.

But it is cool to think about how different the game would've been with a single unified map for the human lands, and how that would've impacted its multi-act structure. I think it ended up for the better—being able to go back to previous areas would be cool, but making them reactive to changes later in the story would've been an impractical amount of extra work.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
It would've been better had the origin stories and generic races had different starting locations. Nothing huge, just a small adventure that explains the premise of that character. Like, you know, the other game with origin stories, DA:O. Tales of Maj'Eyal also has this, not only for races, but classes too.
 

Ismaul

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
It would've been better had the origin stories and generic races had different starting locations. Nothing huge, just a small adventure that explains the premise of that character. Like, you know, the other game with origin stories, DA:O. Tales of Maj'Eyal also has this, not only for races, but classes too.
Yeah, I thought they were hinting at that at first. I think the co-op design prevented this; the designers likely wanted the players to start learning the game together rather than meet up later on.
 

LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
Swen's GDC talk is now available online: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025734/The-Making-of-Divinity-Original

Session Name: The Making of 'Divinity: Original Sin 2'

Speaker(s): Swen Vincke

Company Name(s): Larian Studios

Track / Format: Design

Overview: "The same but sexier, deeper and more engaging" Those were the marching orders for 'Divinity: Original Sin 2'. In this talk, Larian Studios founder Swen Vincke takes a look at all the things that were planned to make 'Divinity: Original Sin 2' a better game than 'Divinity: Original Sin 1', and how they turned out. Vincke is a strong believer in the power of iteration, and D:OS 2 is a game where his team applied iteration at every level, with varying levels of success. The team learned a lot about how to design and organize for iteration, and the talk will focus on these lessons. This talk comes with plenty of examples of both success and failure.
 

Jinn

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So I started a new game in this after getting a little excited about the Divinity: Fallen Heroes announcement. I quit about halfway through my first playthrough at launch time, mainly because I became exasperated with the armor system. I didn't despise the armor system as much as a lot of people around here, but once the numbers started going up around midgame, it just became too much to deal with and still have fun.

I wanted to see some of the changes introduced by the Definitive Edition, but also decided I would try again because of the excellent Armor-Based Saving Throws Mod, which after playing with for awhile has increased the fun I'm having with the game tenfold. It's such a great compromise for the armor system that I can't believe Larian didn't implement the same thing at launch, or at least offer the option. So basically, you have a chance of your magic or physical status effects penetrating the respective armor in question as a percentage in relation to the remaining amount of said armor. The same exact rules apply to the player as well, so the field is even in that regard. Playing on Tactician difficulty with this mod is pretty much the best case scenario with this armor system, and has made combat much more fun, not only because it's less predictable, but because it's much more interesting up until a particular armor is depleted, which in turn makes that point in the battle way more interesting as well. Everything is less formulaic and it seems to keep everything fresh as a result. Highly recommend trying this to anyone who had some fun with the game when they first played it, but felt the game fell a little flat because of the armor system.

In addition, my other biggest problem with the game was how loot was handled, so I installed the Level Up All Equipment Mod and the Interesting Uniques Mod. The first allows you to pay to upgrade unique equipment to your current level for a fee, which helps to alleviate the constant need to swap your equipment every time you level up, and allows you to enjoy some equipment you like a little longer. The second modifies some of the unique equipment to have a little more to them, like added granted skills, and added attribute bonuses, etc. These are band-aids for the loot systems, but overall grants more meaning to those nice hand-placed loot items, rather than them only being valuable to you for an hour or two of play.

Anyway, these three mods have made my second try with D:OS II a whole lot more enjoyable than I ever thought possible. Just wanted to share them here because I think a lot of people would enjoy them if they decided to get D:OS II another try.

tl;dr This is a post about mods and how they make the game a lot more fun for me.
 
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Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
You can also remove the number bloat with a mod, which also allows you to use equipment for far longer.
 

PulsatingBrain

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
WJOfY5h.png


I just got my third source point. If I go and see my God to get my final Source power, will that close this quest? I'd rather do all of the objectives.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just went and tested it, and yes they all close so I just reloaded so I can do them all.
 
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Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Swen's GDC talk is now available online: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025734/The-Making-of-Divinity-Original

Session Name: The Making of 'Divinity: Original Sin 2'

Speaker(s): Swen Vincke

Company Name(s): Larian Studios

Track / Format: Design

Overview: "The same but sexier, deeper and more engaging" Those were the marching orders for 'Divinity: Original Sin 2'. In this talk, Larian Studios founder Swen Vincke takes a look at all the things that were planned to make 'Divinity: Original Sin 2' a better game than 'Divinity: Original Sin 1', and how they turned out. Vincke is a strong believer in the power of iteration, and D:OS 2 is a game where his team applied iteration at every level, with varying levels of success. The team learned a lot about how to design and organize for iteration, and the talk will focus on these lessons. This talk comes with plenty of examples of both success and failure.

Finally got around to watching this, and wow, very interesting talk.

Skip to 40:00 for the part about the armor system. Swen admits that it was a failure.
 
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flyingjohn

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May 14, 2012
Messages
2,962
I have a couple of questions regarding co op if anybody is willing to answer:

-Is this game a better co op experience then the first game?
-Can you play with mods in co op?
-Are these mods sufficient enough for a somewhat interesting game or are there any other major recommended mods:

Armor based saving throw
Level up all equipment
Interesting unique's
Reduced bloat

A friend of mine really wants to play this in co op,but the armor and loot system are just terrible.(hopefully mods will fix that)
 

Perkel

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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,862
I don't know about the loot mods, but the armor saving throws and reduced bloat salvaged the game for me. I can't imagine playing this game without them.

Yup. Game is salvageable with those.


Finally got around to watching this, and wow, very interesting talk.

Skip to 40:00 for the part about the armor system. Swen admits that it was a failure.

Was about to post it. It is funny watching Swen do 180 on this, especially after his tweet just after game release.
The interesting part of this videos is how actually little time they spend on playing it themselves and things like armor system or leveling were mostly based on act1 without checking how it will work in act2 and act3.

One thing he gets still wrong though is leveling. For some unknown reason he believes that level of character is super important like going from lvl 2 to lvl 4 should be like going from farmer to god. I am yet to see him answering to comments talking about how all the loot people find is useless in next 15 minutes precisely because of this creep.

No wonder stats also are stupid. Listening to this GDC talk it looks like gameplay core itself was untested.
 

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