Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Divinity: Original Sin 2 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Discussion in 'Larian Studios' started by Bubbles, Sep 14, 2016.

  1. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    10,827
    Like I also like to repeat, game writers have read only 1 book (LotR) and seen 1 movie (Aliens). You can't be surprised that everything they churn out is a variation of those two things. When they start reading something else, then maybe they'll realize that they shouldn't have been writers in the first place.
     
    • [citation needed] [citation needed] x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,174
    Location:
    Kelethin
    It is at this time of year I feel like donating money to a Books for Games Writers program.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    Lacrymas i'd disagree. I know you're probably exaggerating for emphasis, so not just in regard to the volume read. I'd disagree in regard to the issue.
    Read LoTR or a hundred, two hundred fantasy books. The problem lies/arises when a game writer decides, today, that what -should- be iconic is something like LoTR, ie that two centuries later and in some form or other, we're still stuck to Grimm's fairy tales (didactically and narratively) for a good reason. That's what the problem is.

    Meaning you're effectively complaining that third and fourth rate writers (game writers) have not become the exception, providing deeper, more verisimilar and intellectually engaging fantasy narratives? Seriously? Dude it's 'gaemz'. Pegi 12, spastics, pew pew. You cannot demand what you are from game writers. Even IF some are capable of it, let us be honest, the audience just isn't there yet.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,174
    Location:
    Kelethin
    ^ I kind of agree that the gaming audience is a bunch of stupid little shitty kids. But I also think that it is a perfect time for someone with good stories for a change, could stand out from the crowd and show how it's done. Witcher 3 is the nearest I've seen to that, at least in terms of dialogue. I still think if someone builds it, they will come.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • sheeple sheeple x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    10,827
    Aenra, I'm actually quoting Ken Levine, who was also probably exaggerating for emphasis. Pop culture, especially writing, is still stuck in the Romantic period in general, that's why everything looks like Grimm's fairly tales, LotR is an extension of Romanticism as well, Tolkien just delivered Coleridge's aesthetic principles to their logical extreme (by creating a different world entirely, governed by its own logic). Tolkien, however, was a good writer, 99% of gaem writers aren't, so they can't even copy his work properly. I.e. I agree that the problem is deeper than just a lack of sources and reference material. I don't agree that the audience is not there though, this whole forum (some of it at least) have been ready for a while, so there is an audience, but devs don't cater to us, they cater to the subhuman masses.

    Writing is something completely different than what vidya gaem writers treat it as (those that actually do want to be writers, like Larian's 7-man cuck squad), it's not simply words on a page, sometimes even forming coherent sentences, that's why I mentioned that if they get a little bit more educated they'll probably realize that they shouldn't be writers at all.
     
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 2
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,174
    Location:
    Kelethin
    I would bro fist if I could. I'll just give you a jacko. :dance:
     
    ^ Top  
  7. imweasel Guest

    imweasel
    Glad to hear that they are scrapping the old attribute system and making attempts to improve the loot system.

    Yep. Judging from the latest video I'd say the game will be released late 2017. They are still adding tons of stuff to the game and fixing/improving stuff.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. Fry Arcane

    Fry
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,922
    And how would you translate your conception of what writing is to a video game that would actually be fun to play?
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    10,827
    We have examples of good writing in games, so it's not like it's not possible :p KotOR2, PST and (maybe) MotB are all examples of it, Dak'kon and Kreia are both worthy of being studied in academies as intensely dramatic and thematically coherent characters. What constitutes good writing and how you form a logically whole, artistically sound narrative (and what those things even mean) is a very complicated topic, it's so complicated in fact that academies have at least 4 year courses on it, so summarizing it in a thread post is not possible.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  10. Fry Arcane

    Fry
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,922
    You could have actually explained it in a paragraph. Your idea of good writing is fully-formed characters who interact with and react to the world as real humans actually do. They're multidimensional and subtle without the obvious telegraphing and thin motivations of most pop writing.

    So, yes, it's absolutely fair to say that character development in most "video" media (movies, TV, games) is atrocious.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    10,827
    Yeah, but that's a very crude summary of some of the problems of writing, they're also not the only aspects of it, there's also form, stylistic and thematic coherence, poetics, world-building, sleight of hand tricks, different techniques etc. But yeah, most "video media" is atrocious in all these aspects, but I'd argue all media is like that, good examples are hard to find in all of them, books have the added benefit of having been around a long time to amass a large corpus of genius.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    Lacrymas i couldn't give a shit what Levine said or thought. I was addressing you.
    You, failing to grasp what i'm talking about, instead focusing (again) on Tolkien, ie a mere example in this conversation. You, committing the error everyone else does here, taking a minority (the Dex) as the standard and expecting the world to conform to it. You, incapable of even reading, as you'd have noted my referring to this too. You cannot expect an AAA title, with the relevant AAA costs, to address itself to such a small minority; reasons being obvious. You therefore cannot expect any part of the industry aspiring to attain such levels to do so either (now or in the future), NOT when the audience it needs just does not exist. Not in the -numbers- required, not in the -maturity- required.

    Yet you keep saying "games" (plural), you keep saying "us" (as if we define the market). In other words, this time too, you've responded the exact same way you always do. By only pretending to consider what's being told, by viewing it from your personal prism (and never mind this being a conversation) and by ultimately using those very arguments that have been challenged as basis for finding yourself correct.. as you felt you were in the first place. My mistake of course, should have remembered this and refrained from tagging you. Not the first time this happens :)

    In regard to Tolkien, am uninterested in how good a writer you find him. You missed the point entirely. Again.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2016
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. HoboForEternity sunset tequila Patron

    HoboForEternity
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    6,702
    Location:
    Disco Elysium
    swen has really perky man boobs. you can see them in the latest KS video
     
    • WTF am I reading x 3
    • Excited! x 2
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • Interesting x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    • "It was Aliens" x 1
    • Doggy x 1
    • :M x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    10,827
    Aenra, you sure you weren't looking in the mirror when you composed that verbal diarrhea? Let me quote myself -

     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
    ^ Top  
  15. vortex Fabulous Optimist

    vortex
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    2,789
    [​IMG]
     
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 2
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. aweigh Arcane

    aweigh
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    15,935
    Location:
    Florida
    lolol i remember the days when i used to think RPG "story" was important haha

    hoho heh heh haa

    ...stories. PFFFT!!!!!

    then i discovered Wizardry never looked back. real men like RPGs which concentrate on solid gameplay before story shit.

    :imsomuchedigerandcoolerthanyouguise:

    :timetotriggersomepeople:
     
    • Prestigious x 2
    • Brofist x 1
    • WTF am I reading x 1
    • Shit x 1
    • Doggy x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. Trodat Cipher Patron

    Trodat
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    795
    Location:
    Finland
    I looked at some of the EA gameplay videos and somehow it looks pretty much the same as D:OS was from the beginning but with updated graphics. Do they have some kind of beach-island tool set what they love to use or just really like to start their games with that kind of surroundings?
     
    ^ Top  
  18. Grokalibre Learned

    Grokalibre
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    191
    That may be slightly related to why they decided the call the game "D:OS 2".
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    ^ Top  
  19. aweigh Arcane

    aweigh
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    15,935
    Location:
    Florida
     
    • decline decline x 1
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  20. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,174
    Location:
    Kelethin
    ^ I wish they would stop making the same game over and over again with new graphics. It has been about 25 years since Street Fighter 2 was a big hit and they have barely improved anything since then except graphics. I want a new Panza Kickboxing.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. aweigh Arcane

    aweigh
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    15,935
    Location:
    Florida
    anvi

    closer to 30 years or more even. love that street fighter fundamental gameplay will always be the same, otherwise it would not be able to revel in the same properties chess, and other mental sports enjoy.

    the trick to every new street fighter is how little they can tweak the already perfect fundamental formula that regardless of being a small tweak manages to affect and change both the flat and linear tools along with becoming an extra choice inside the meta-knowledge of the mechanics.

    that's much, much harder to achieve than making entirely different systems or changes big enough to alter the cores of existing systems. people don't want billiards 2.0, or chess 2.0, or boxing 2.0: the formula is already there and it is almost flawless, people want to keep playing it forever and ever, just like with the other games and 1 sport i mentioned above.

    the game, in this case SF, has to maintain a fundamentally consistent set of rules and checks and such things in order to allow players of the game (read: sport) to get better at it over time, and so that "tech", i.e. constantly new and different ways to resolve classic scenarios that always present themselves, is something that is passed on from one group of older players to a newer set of players.

    something which wouldn't be possible if every SF (or FG) was too different from its previous iterations, effectively meaning the 4-8 years you just spent learning one set of systems is now chucked out the window and you have to dedicate another 4-8 years learning something completely, intentionally different to your muscle memory.

    muscle memory is another huge component in the how and why of fighting game design. if you want the game to continue be played and enjoyed as a competitive sport or match then you simply can't tweak player tools standardized for, now over 25+ years, to completely change, otherwise you are effectively eliminating completely the already established player base from the possible buyers on the gamble that this new change to the entire game play will somehow attract more people.

    i think the real problem is non-FGC players view FG's as video games. they're more actual sport than sports game are representations of real sports. (Hence being considered eSports now, FINALLY).

    ...like, you can't just one day make kicking the basketball legal or some shit like that. the ball goes into the basket when thrown by hands, and that's the game. what possible change could one make to something so established as basketball, and more to point, what need would there be of such changes? imagine that shit. same applies with FGs.

    if you don't like making the ball go into the basket w/ your hands that way, try football, if you don't like it all, then try soccer because in that one the ball goes into the basket with the player's legs. so different. the exact same type of thing applies to FGs as well which is why Mortal Kombat players don't like playing SF, and SF players don't like playing MK.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
    • hopw roewur ne hopw roewur ne x 1
    • decline decline x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    82,034
    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    http://www.pcgamesn.com/divinity-or...-original-sin-2-pvp-multiplayer-battle-report



     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • decline decline x 1
    • Shit Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    All well and good but PR and hyping grow tiresome soon enough... no one's had any doubt about the combat, single or multi-mode.

    I still want to see if the love-letter-to-Ultima is pushed any further, i still want to know how and in what way/extent the narrative restricts gameplay (when fucktons of 'story' are crammed into a game i begin to worry), i still want to know if the quality deteriorates after Act 1 and i most of all still want to know about the editor (will we still need to create whole new campaigns just to load a simple module [and effectively start from scratch]? Will it offer any module loading and sorting QoL features? etc).

    Which makes me wonder just why we're getting the same mechanics highlighted over and over again.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
    ^ Top  
  24. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,174
    Location:
    Kelethin
    TLDR. Also does anyone really want to play it with multiplayer? I hope they don't waste too much time on that.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    10,827
    They've been in bed with multiplayer since D:OS1, some people even speculate that its overwhelming popularity compared to the other kickstarted RPGs is because of the multiplayer.
     
    • [citation needed] [citation needed] x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)