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Retardo Does anyone know what this thread is about?

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I don't personally abuse quicksave/load, partly because I don't trust it as in many games it led me to file corruption and related bullshit. I just take the extra seconds to save normally. But "well, just don't use it!" is a cop-out answer for the issue. If the game drops a kickass weapon onto my lap at the beginning of the game, I could just discard it and keep on trucking with my rusty dagger, but that doesn't change the fact I had to gimp myself when it was the designer's job to see that I could use all the tools available and still have some challenge to deal with. My willpower should be employed into trying to win the game, not keep myself from winning too easily.

Implementing several types of "saving modes" creates an even bigger issue with the balance. You have to make the game easy enough so the save-restricted guys don't have an impossible challenge but hard enough so the save-anywhere guys don't go through a cakewalk just because they didn't choose the HARDKOR option. (Ironman doesn't count because it's clear from the start that you want the game to bust your balls with stiletto heels)
 

thesheeep

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I think the problem is that you see save games as part of the gameplay, where I see them as something that sits "on top" of the gameplay, not influencing it in any direct way.

A tool given to the player, who is free to use it in any way he wants.
 
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Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

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Try imagining heal potions as one-ups and they suddenly make sense in a computer game sense. An expert Mario player would end the game with a bazillion lives, just like a pro-RPGer would end a game with a bazillion heal potions. Instead of going back to the start of the level when you die, you just reload where you died, why? because in an RPG you may perform a huge number of game-changing details by going back and hour or two, from conversations to random loot, which is unfair punishment for falling into one lava pit because it's the first lava pit you've jumped over. As a role-player you want all your decisions/rng results to remain intact but you want to try an overcome a challenge with newly gained experience. Hence the preference for immediate saves.

The bit that gets everyone in a muddle is the Healing Potions AND immediate saves. You can save-scum to protect your one-ups instead of using them as your means to gain experience in combat. Having enemies that can one-shot you also removes the point of healing potions. If you want to get anal about this aspect of RPGs then you're basically forcing devs into an unsolvable corner. The easiest solution is to simply have the usual healing potions plus the immediate saves, just because some people are bored of it doesn't mean it's a worse solution that anything else that's ever been put on the table. Saying it's a cop-out if it's left to the player to decide how hardcore they want to be is the biggest cop-out of all, because you're the one destabilising a core RPG mechanic, don't you think it would be more "productive" to have a genuinely popular solution before you insist devs somehow magically invent a better system than one that already exists and only a few (?) people have a problem with (people who have probably burned themselves out on over-playing repetition)?
 

Glaurung

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I thought only my girlfriend has enjoyed pointlessly walking and walking and walking and walking and walking and walking and walking and walking and walking among giant mushrooms. I was more entertained watching paint dry than walking across Morrowind. I'd have fast travel over this crap any day.
You, like so many Morrowind-hating tards, are entirely missing the point of the game and gaming in general.

What is the core function of a game? Presenting a challenge and giving you the means to overcome it. Morrowind was the superior TES installment precisely because it did this best than any game before or since.

Getting from place A to place B is not as trivial as it may appear at first sight - there's no default reason why it should be as simple as double-clicking a spot on your map and waiting for the location to load. Morrowind turned travel into a challenge, and provided an extensive selection of tools that made traveling almost as exciting as any 'proper' part of the game like combat, exploration, dialogue, or quest-solving.

For one, there were numerous types of transportation: boats, silt striders, mage guild teleportators. You had to memorize travel routes to get the fastest travel time for your coin.
For two, there were propylon chambers in any of the sixteen ancient strongholds scattered around the map. Bethesda added a dlc quest that told you the locations of each propylon and joined them into a single Master Propylon that let you teleport freely between any of the strongholds.
For three, there was the mark/recall spell system. Mark your home and teleport there any time you wish. Genius in simplicity.
For four, there were levitation, fast running, waterwalking and jumping spells that allowed you to traverse any kind of landscape. Combined with alchemy, you could make very efficient spells that got you where you want in a very short time.
For five, there were enchanted items which provided the aforementioned spell effects without costing mana. You could create your own enchantments (grab soul gems and go hunting Golden Saints), or use pre-existing artefacts like Boots of Blinding Speed, find a way to counteract the "blinding" side-effect and you're set.


Future installments did more than provide a way to mindlessly hop around the map with no restrictions. They also dispensed with each and every tool mentioned above, leaving the player with exactly two options: walking everywhere slowly or fast-traveling instantly. Even modders couldn't return most of Morrowind's travel options. Traveling is no longer a challenge that requires skill, strategic thinking, exploration, character development and all the fun you have in the process. Now it's just a trivial utility. No matter how big of an improvement Skyrim may be over Morrowind, it will never come close to the diversity of challenges and opportunities provided by Morrowind.


The only way walking back and forth in Morrowind, Skyrim, and any other walking simulator is a nice plump ass moving on the screen, Nude mod for the win, fuck yeah!
Gothic? Fuck that. I dont do pointless walking without a visual distraction right in front.
I couldn't agree more!

10fnpl5.jpg

A level 1 "warrior" is as much of a blank slate as a level 1 classless character that decided to pick up a sword.
Certifiably false. A level 1 warrior in D&D hits a lot harder and takes a lot more damage than a level 1 mage. You could go through the whole game with a party of level 1 warriors, provided the enemies always stayed at level 1 difficulty, however a party of level 1 mages would be nearly-useless due to their non-existent combat skills and one shitty level 1 spell per character after which running around the map from hordes of enemies ensues.

Have you actually played any D&D CRPGs? :retarded:
 
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Have you actually read the replies to the other aspies that took that as a literal comparison between two different systems? :needanemoticonforthis:

You, like so many Morrowind-hating tards, are entirely missing the point of the game and gaming in general.
What is the core function of a game? Presenting a challenge and giving you the means to overcome it. Morrowind was the superior TES installment precisely because it did this best than any game before or since.

Bolded the problematic part. :M

I think the problem is that you see save games as part of the gameplay, where I see them as something that sits "on top" of the gameplay, not influencing it in any direct way.

A tool given to the player, who is free to use it in any way he wants.

And no, "do not use it" is not an cop-out answer. It is a simple truth. A choice you can make. As it sits on top of the actual gameplay, you are not gimping yourself in any way. But you can save some valuable time if you want.

It influences the game directly, I don't think it's "not really there" just because it's not "the character doing it". It is true (you can simply not use the tools you are given), but it is also a cop-out (why wouldn't I use the tools I was given?). People will complain about making a ton of health potions with mushrooms that were on your way. Why don't they just ignore the mushrooms?
 

UglyBastard

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Legend of Grimrock 2 actually implemented a "choose your save system" at game start.

You could just save normally, only save at healing crystals that act as autosave points and only save at each individual healing crystal ONCE (pretty brutal).
 

mondblut

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You, like so many Morrowind-hating tards, are entirely missing the point of the game and gaming in general.

Where would I be without you to enlighten me, lol.

Getting from place A to place B is not as trivial as it may appear at first sight - there's no default reason why it should be as simple as double-clicking a spot on your map and waiting for the location to load. Morrowind turned travel into a challenge, and provided an extensive selection of tools that made traveling almost as exciting as any 'proper' part of the game like combat, exploration, dialogue, or quest-solving.

Newsflash: boredom is not "challenge". Nor is frustration. If you are challenged by walking the same fucking road back and forth for hours, and by beating off your 386th cliffracer that day, I would suggest seeking professional help.

For one, there were numerous types of transportation: boats, silt striders, mage guild teleportators. You had to memorize travel routes to get the fastest travel time for your coin.

People keep bringing up public transportation as if it didn't replace walking for 20 minutes straight with walking for 10 minutes in the opposite direction to a closest bus stop, teleporting to another bus stop, then walking for 10 minutes more to your final destination. Much efficiency!

For four, there were levitation, fast running, waterwalking and jumping spells that allowed you to traverse any kind of landscape. Combined with alchemy, you could make very efficient spells that got you where you want in a very short time.
For five, there were enchanted items which provided the aforementioned spell effects without costing mana. You could create your own enchantments (grab soul gems and go hunting Golden Saints), or use pre-existing artefacts like Boots of Blinding Speed, find a way to counteract the "blinding" side-effect and you're set.

Good RPG design is providing quality experience out of the box, which further improves with character advancement. Providing abysmal experience which is eventually somewhat fixed with character advancement to barely tolerable is what "freemium" games live off. Good thing there was no Steam in morrowind times, lest we'd have "2x walking speed for just 2.99$! 5x running speed for only 4.99$! Also, buy our special jewgoldcryztals to fuel the new teleport spell" DLCs in no time.

Future installments did more than provide a way to mindlessly hop around the map with no restrictions.

And for once, nothing of value was lost. Well, except facilitated transportation to areas not visited before. Daggerfall did it best, you never had to waste time on hiking somewhere on foot in order to become capable to fast travel there.

Convenience uber alles.
 

baturinsky

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You, like so many Morrowind-hating tards, are entirely missing the point of the game and gaming in general.

What is the core function of a game? Presenting a challenge and giving you the means to overcome it. Morrowind was the superior TES installment precisely because it did this best than any game before or since.

Getting from place A to place B is not as trivial as it may appear at first sight - there's no default reason why it should be as simple as double-clicking a spot on your map and waiting for the location to load. Morrowind turned travel into a challenge, and provided an extensive selection of tools that made traveling almost as exciting as any 'proper' part of the game like combat, exploration, dialogue, or quest-solving.

For one, there were numerous types of transportation: boats, silt striders, mage guild teleportators. You had to memorize travel routes to get the fastest travel time for your coin.
For two, there were propylon chambers in any of the sixteen ancient strongholds scattered around the map. Bethesda added a dlc quest that told you the locations of each propylon and joined them into a single Master Propylon that let you teleport freely between any of the strongholds.
For three, there was the mark/recall spell system. Mark your home and teleport there any time you wish. Genius in simplicity.
For four, there were levitation, fast running, waterwalking and jumping spells that allowed you to traverse any kind of landscape. Combined with alchemy, you could make very efficient spells that got you where you want in a very short time.
For five, there were enchanted items which provided the aforementioned spell effects without costing mana. You could create your own enchantments (grab soul gems and go hunting Golden Saints), or use pre-existing artefacts like Boots of Blinding Speed, find a way to counteract the "blinding" side-effect and you're set.
You forgot Divine/Almsivi intervention.
 

Glaurung

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Newsflash: boredom is not "challenge". Nor is frustration. If you are challenged by walking the same fucking road back and forth for hours, and by beating off your 386th cliffracer that day, I would suggest seeking professional help.
Boredom is indeed not a challenge, it is a symptom of a bad/stupid/lazy player failing to utilize the opportunities provided by the game to overcome the challenge. The challenge being "get from Vivec to Gnaar Moc without wasting 30 minutes walking through ash deserts".

People keep bringing up public transportation as if it didn't replace walking for 20 minutes straight with walking for 10 minutes in the opposite direction to a closest bus stop, teleporting to another bus stop, then walking for 10 minutes more to your final destination. Much efficiency!
Your ridiculous exaggerations make me think you never played Morrowind. Transportation was very useful in this game as a time-saver, if you selected the right routes it would cut travel time by 90%. A smart player is supposed to use transportation in conjunction with all the other methods of fast travel which you quoted in a separate pane because muh etardnet debating skills.

Good RPG design is providing quality experience out of the box, which further improves with character advancement.
Every fast travel option is provided out of the box. You do need to have enough gold/exp/spells/soul gems/quests gathered to make full use of them, of course, how else? It's an RPG not action-adventure where all your skills are available at game start. :lol:

Providing abysmal experience which is eventually somewhat fixed with character advancement to barely tolerable is what "freemium" games live off. Good thing there was no Steam in morrowind times, lest we'd have "2x walking speed for just 2.99$! 5x running speed for only 4.99$! Also, buy our special jewgoldcryztals to fuel the new teleport spell" DLCs in no time.
This has nothing to do with Morrowind, stop being retarded. Bethesda even provided a number of free mods that improved certain aspects of the game, like a quest to gather all the propylon indexes which were hard to find previously.

And for once, nothing of value was lost. Well, except facilitated transportation to areas not visited before. Daggerfall did it best, you never had to waste time on hiking somewhere on foot in order to become capable to fast travel there.
Convenience uber alles.
Oblivion and Skyrim are too hardcore, you heard it first at the RPGCodex, guys.

:1/5::0/5:

You forgot Divine/Almsivi intervention.
Thanks. There were also gondolas that transported you to various cantons of Vivec.
 

mondblut

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Boredom is indeed not a challenge, it is a symptom of a bad/stupid/lazy player failing to utilize the opportunities provided by the game to overcome the challenge. The challenge being "get from Vivec to Gnaar Moc without wasting 30 minutes walking through ash deserts".

Morrowing: The Traveling Salesman Challenge RPG. When you lose, you lose nothing but your time!

Sounds fun. Yawn.

Your ridiculous exaggerations make me think you never played Morrowind. Transportation was very useful in this game as a time-saver, if you selected the right routes it would cut travel time by 90%. A smart player is supposed to use transportation in conjunction with all the other methods of fast travel which you quoted in a separate pane because muh etardnet debating skills.

Too bad there are no bus stops at dungeons where shit actually happens.

Every fast travel option is provided out of the box. You do need to have enough gold/exp/spells/soul gems/quests gathered to make full use of them, of course, how else? It's an RPG not action-adventure where all your skills are available at game start. :lol:

So you admit one needs to grind 20 levels in order not to fall asleep while traversing from point A to point B. Muh challenge!

This has nothing to do with Morrowind, stop being retarded. Bethesda even provided a number of free mods that improved certain aspects of the game, like a quest to gather all the propylon indexes which were hard to find previously.

Too bad none of them removed the shitracers and multiplied running speed 10 times. Something I learned to do whenever I play a new bethsoft game ever since.
 

Lhynn

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For all my love for breaking and raping games, that one is just too silly. Monty Python kind of silly. Breaking games is supposed to be a honest hard work, not an "awesome" button the morrowind alchemy is. :obviously: It is supposed to require skill.

An RPG that is legitimately and piss-easily winnable in 15 fucking minutes is a travesty, period.
You are delusional if you think breaking morrowind is as simple as starting the game up and playing it. takes a lot of experimenting and knowledge of the system to do it, plus picking the right skills to level.

I didnt find the game breaking shit till after my 2nd play when i was bored and started trying shit. Of course if you google "how to break morrowind" and then complain its too easy all i can say is "what were you fucking expecting".
 

MrMarbles

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Didnt there be a Mark/Recall spell for that situation in Morrowind?

Also Divine/Almsivi Intervention (transport to the nearest temple) and teleportation items (the band thing from Tribunal etc.)

Combine that with the chambers in Dunmer Strongholds, Mage Guild teleporters, boats and striders, plus the final option of boosting speed/levitation/acrobatics to get to dungeons, and you have one of the best transport systems ever made in a crpg. So many options:bounce: With some planning most destinations could be reached very fast.

Calling Morrowind transportation boring is f. retarded:argh:

EDIT: Baturinsky got there first
 
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mondblut

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You are delusional if you think breaking morrowind is as simple as starting the game up and playing it. takes a lot of experimenting and knowledge of the system to do it, plus picking the right skills to level.

I didnt find the game breaking shit till after my 2nd play when i was bored and started trying shit. Of course if you google "how to break morrowind" and then complain its too easy all i can say is "what were you fucking expecting".

The only "knowledge of the system" one needs is "crafting alchemy potions that boost alchemy makes futher potions exponentially stronger without any upper cap". Any kid can figure that out the moment he stumbles upon an alchemy set. What do you mean, "skills to level"? Not in this one :lol:
 

Lhynn

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The only "knowledge of the system" one needs is "crafting alchemy potions that boost alchemy makes futher potions exponentially stronger without any upper cap". Any kid can figure that out the moment he stumbles upon an alchemy set. What do you mean, "skills to level"? Not in this one :lol:
I mean not everyone picks alchemy and uses it, i also mean you have no idea what alchemy can do when you play the game unless you actively try it for a while, because what each ingredient do is hidden, and because you need to find a couple ingredients with the same effect and put them together.
 

SausageInYourFace

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Transportation was very useful in this game as a time-saver, if you selected the right routes it would cut travel time by 90%.
With some planning most destinations could be reached very fast.

Still not as fast as with Skyrim fast travel.

I get the hunch that the real reason people prefer transportation over fast travel is because they like to LARP...
 

Lhynn

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Still not as fast as with Skyrim fast travel.

I get the hunch that the real reason people prefer transportation over fast travel is because they like to LARP...
I get the feeling you missed the entire point of the elder scrolls series.
 
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Sykar

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For all my love for breaking and raping games, that one is just too silly. Monty Python kind of silly. Breaking games is supposed to be a honest hard work, not an "awesome" button the morrowind alchemy is. :obviously: It is supposed to require skill.

An RPG that is legitimately and piss-easily winnable in 15 fucking minutes is a travesty, period.

I guess Fallout 1 is a travesty as well then since people can beat it in under 9 minutes without major exploits. :troll:
 

mondblut

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I guess Fallout 1 is a travesty as well then since people can beat it in under 9 minutes without major exploits. :troll:

ORLY? And how do you breeze through the military base and the cathedral on level 1?

Ahh, I see.

1) make an extremely specific build custom-tailored for particular unavoidable challenges.
2) have knowledge where a bunch of crucial items are located.
3) run from everything, exploiting the retarded AI.
4) savescum and pray a lot.
5) take advantage of the designers' limpwristed pandering to the "combat is teh hard, i wanna be able to win teh game as a professional stripper" crowd.

Pretty pathetic (paragraph 5 in particular), but nowhere on the level of morrowind:

1) have alchemy skill
2) make and quaff 50 potions in sequence
3) jump across half the world to the bad guy and punch him half a mile into the mountainside.
 
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mondblut

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I get the feeling you missed the entire point of the elder scrolls series.

Both Arena and Daggerfall were anything but the Dear Esther: Fantasy walking sims, there were no fancy made up landscapes to gawk at. In fact, in Arena you wouldn't ever get anywhere by foot at all.

(also, I wonder how many people took advantage of Arcanum's awsum option to cross the entire world back and forth by foot instead of using the global map for quick travel? I'd love seeing that...)
 

Sykar

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ORLY? And how do you breeze through the military base and the cathedral on level 1?

Ahh, I see.

1) make an extremely specific build custom-tailored for particular unavoidable challenges.
2) have knowledge where a bunch of crucial items are located.
3) run from everything, exploiting the retarded AI.
4) savescum and pray a lot.
5) take advantage of the designers' limpwristed pandering to the "combat is teh hard, i wanna be able to win teh game as a professional stripper" crowd.

Pretty pathetic (paragraph 5 in particular), but nowhere on the level of morrowind:

1) have alchemy skill
2) make and quaff 50 potions in sequence
3) jump across half the world to the bad guy and punch him half a mile into the mountainside.


In both cases, extensive meta game knowledge is required, genius, otherwise it's not possible. Furthermore, that shit doesn't happen by accident, you have to actively pursue them and it is therefore easy to avoid such exploits one way or the other. If you can't outside for speed running purposes, then you are a retard, pure and simple. I also find it hilarious how you make it sound that it is SOOOO hard to do in Fallout, when it is just as easy to exploit the shit out of the game. Funny though, sound like you hold Fallout to a high regard but you spit on MW "cuz exploitz".

:nocountryforshitposters:
 
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DragoFireheart

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Games are supposed to be broken and beaten quickly. Fuck, some games include a speed run mode.

That doesn't make the game less fun. Sometimes, exploring the world fully is fun. Or maybe that secret hidden boss needs beating. Or some alternate, optional world.
 

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