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DOOM Eternal - the sequel to the 2016 reboot - now with The Ancient Gods DLC

Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,149
Yes and no. Dashing gives you a larger time window to avoid incoming shots than if you had to reverse strafing directions. But to compensate for it, more enemies at once will throw projectiles at you (where Doom 2016 had that token system that limited how many enemies could attack you at once, but in Eternal that seems less of a problem), and most projectiles in general are faster and have more leading applied to them. Especially fodder enemies will keep pelting you, but as fodder enemies deal less damage in Eternal than in 2016 they don't become an uneven threat (unlike Imps in 2016 who were the most threatening enemies in Nightmare with their 45DMG fireballs). Another thing to consider is that more enemies fire projectiles in bursts. The Arachnotron will fire projectiles in a sweeping pattern, where the first shots underlead to catch you if you try to immediately reverse directions, but the last shots will overlead to catch you if you keep dashing in one direction. So the Gargoyle, Soldiers, Cacodemon, (Cyber-)Mancubus, Carcass, Whiplash, Tyrant and Doom Hunter all possess attacks like these where their burst lasts long enough so that if you dash too quickly (or not at all), it will be on cooldown when you need it the most. Dashing makes it easier to deal against single projectiles because you can usually dash left/right and avoid it just fine (which is why Eternal throws greater volumes of them at you), but dashing against projectile bursts is like having to deal with melee tracking in Dark Souls; you need to time that shit. In fact, charging Pinkies in Eternal will track you if you dash too early.

Another reason why I believe dashing is a net positive is because it makes dealing with enemy melee attacks consistent. The problem with melee attacks in FPS is that as long as you move faster than the enemy, you can always avoid their melee attacks by simply backpedaling or circlestrafing. So it's up to the level design to restrict the space you can backpedal in. Only this won't work in Eternal's open circular arenas especially now that you have a grappling hook to move about even faster, so a different approach is required. Dealing with Hell Knights and Barons in 2016 had this problem where sometimes they would do their leaping ground pound attack at a position that you can't realistically move away from fast enough with your movement speed, meaning taking damage was inevitable. As increasing the movement speed only enables more backpedaling, having a "normal" speed but being able to immediately dash across large distances allows dealing with inevitable melee attacks to be a matter of timing your dash. Which is especially useful against enemies like the Dread Knight whose ground pound has a massive AoE.

Uhh, what?

Default dash cooldown (assuming you take the dash cooldown reducer because of course you take it, its the best upgrade in the game) is 0.75s. There is no instance in which dash ends up "on cooldown" and unable to be used vs. whatever, unless you fuck up and double dash. And about half this time is spent dashing to begin with, so really its more like a 0.375s cooldown.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of leading. Shots can't have "more leading". Shots in both games have infinite leading. If you are moving at 4 m/s and the shot would take 3s to hit you, the enemy always aims 12 meters ahead of your current position in both games. The difference is that in Doom 2016 you need to specifically recognize this and slow down, while in DoomE your velocity is rapidly changing such that you are almost never at the spot the projectile lands.

While I haven't 100% tested every enemy in the game I can confidentally state that the vast majority of enemies never intentionally overlead or underlead their target. They always lead by precisely your current velocity times the projectile travel time. e.g.:

Mancubus fires 2 shots and you don't dash at all. Both his shots absolutely 100% hit you exactly, because he knows exactly where you will be and how much to lead you by.
Mancubus fires 2 shots, you are dashing the instant he locks on for shot 1 and not during shot 2. Shot 1 massively overleads you, Shot 2 massively underleads you.
Mancubus firse 2 shots, you are not dashing in instant he locks on for shot 1 and are dashing during shot 2. Shot 1 massively underleads you, shot 2 massively overleads you.

(obviously, if he's using his attack that spawns a pool effect and happens to overshoot you due to timing it does become a hazard that you need to avoid or take some damage dashing, but the point is he won't actually hit you).

Melee attacks don't change this. If you varied your velocity in 2016 and/or circle strafed (at a fairly precise distance) you could consistently dodge melee attacks. You had to recognize the point in the melee leap animation where the enemy was locked on and change your velocity to avoid their target. You could 100% dodge Hell knights endlessly in a completely flat area with just WASD, I just loaded up 2016 and did this for several minutes to be sure. There are exactly zero instances of undodgable Hell Knight attacks. This is actually Dark Souls like, needing to watch the enemy and respond exactly after the moment their ability to track you ends (also git gud). In Eternal you don't need to do this, because 0.75s dash recharge means you automatically dodge in time.

Brainless dashing does not work on nightmare, and that is why it doesn't trivialize combat in Doom Eternal.
You have to time it and also consider your position when using it in Doom Eternal. That is the difference to
Shadow Warrior 2, there you can circle strafe dash in the same manner nonstop and it works almost all the time.

I literally beat ultra nightmare rhythmically pounding shift every 0.75s. It absolutely works and trivializes combat assuming you move in a stable loop. Dashing in Shadow Warrior 2 is exactly the same as Doom Eternal except that Eternal punishes you with a 2x longer dash cooldown if you panic and dash a 2nd time too early.
 
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Silly Germans

Guest
I literally beat ultra nightmare rhythmically pounding shift every 0.75s. It absolutely works and trivializes combat assuming you move in a stable loop. Dashing in Shadow Warrior 2 is exactly the same as Doom Eternal except that Eternal punishes you with a 2x longer dash cooldown if you panic and dash a 2nd time too early.
I am not sure how you manage to move in a stable loop. There are enough encounters where it isn't possible due
to map design. I agree that you have to dash nonstop but you can't hold A or W down nonstop while hitting shift,
this doesn't work always.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,149
I literally beat ultra nightmare rhythmically pounding shift every 0.75s. It absolutely works and trivializes combat assuming you move in a stable loop. Dashing in Shadow Warrior 2 is exactly the same as Doom Eternal except that Eternal punishes you with a 2x longer dash cooldown if you panic and dash a 2nd time too early.
I am not sure how you manage to move in a stable loop. There are enough encounters where it isn't possible due
to map design. I agree that you have to dash nonstop but you can't hold A or W down nonstop while hitting shift,
this doesn't work always.

Almost all areas have some kind of fairly stable loop*. Yes you need to jump and grab ledges some time, or use teleporter**/the gravity pads/gymnast bars,, or use the supershotgun hook, but that works in your favor because enemy ability to track you and keep up with you in general is very poor when doing these things. Even in the densely packed slayer gate areas these kinds of loops exist. The main "skill" related part to this is to not move so quickly that you actually start to "lap" enemies on your circuit, because then you tend to get body blocked and/or just take damage because you are dodging directly towards something attacking you. But once you get the super shotgun you have a very easy and reusable panic button to drastically alter your course and reset to a safer position (while also farming up armor).

* the one area I distinctly remember not having a great loop for I camped in a good position next to the teleporter as a panic escape option and really abused grenades vs. grouped up enemies along with the equipment recharge bonus. It was the 3 short, narrow hallways in Taras Nabad, the area where you also fight a marauder as a challenge.

** I actually don't like using teleporters most of the time. It seems enemies lose track of you for a somewhat random amount of time after using one, which makes their movement unpredictable, spreads them out, and increases the chance of "lapping" something on your circuit. Ideally most of the enemies tend to clump up near the center of the arena over time.
 
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Silly Germans

Guest
I literally beat ultra nightmare rhythmically pounding shift every 0.75s. It absolutely works and trivializes combat assuming you move in a stable loop. Dashing in Shadow Warrior 2 is exactly the same as Doom Eternal except that Eternal punishes you with a 2x longer dash cooldown if you panic and dash a 2nd time too early.
I am not sure how you manage to move in a stable loop. There are enough encounters where it isn't possible due
to map design. I agree that you have to dash nonstop but you can't hold A or W down nonstop while hitting shift,
this doesn't work always.

Almost all areas have some kind of fairly stable loop*. Yes you need to jump and grab ledges some time, or use teleporter**/the gravity pads/gymnast bars,, or use the supershotgun hook, but that works in your favor because enemy ability to track you and keep up with you in general is very poor when doing these things. Even in the densely packed slayer gate areas these kinds of loops exist. The main "skill" related part to this is to not move so quickly that you actually start to "lap" enemies on your circuit, because then you tend to get body blocked and/or just take damage because you are dodging directly towards something attacking you. But once you get the super shotgun you have a very easy and reusable panic button to drastically alter your course and reset to a safer position (while also farming up armor).

* the one area I distinctly remember not having a great loop for I camped in a good position next to the teleporter as a panic escape option and really abused grenades vs. grouped up enemies along with the equipment recharge bonus. It was the 3 short, narrow hallways in Taras Nabad, the area where you also fight a marauder as a challenge.

** I actually don't like using teleporters most of the time. It seems enemies lose track of you for a somewhat random amount of time after using one, which makes their movement unpredictable, spreads them out, and increases the chance of "lapping" something on your circuit. Ideally most of the enemies tend to clump up near the center of the arena over time.

These small things make all the difference in my opinion and enhance the gameplay. I mean you say it yourself,
you use the hook, you have to climb ledges, go to jumpads or teleporters, etc. You must mix them into your
movement, which makes for a movement/mobility that is different to plain circle strafing with dash in my opinion.
I was not under the impression that i repeated the same movement pattern all the time, even if the main "moves"
are dashing and strafing.
 

orcinator

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,704
Location
Republic of Kongou
I literally beat ultra nightmare rhythmically pounding shift every 0.75s. It absolutely works and trivializes combat assuming you move in a stable loop. Dashing in Shadow Warrior 2 is exactly the same as Doom Eternal except that Eternal punishes you with a 2x longer dash cooldown if you panic and dash a 2nd time too early.
I am not sure how you manage to move in a stable loop. There are enough encounters where it isn't possible due
to map design. I agree that you have to dash nonstop but you can't hold A or W down nonstop while hitting shift,
this doesn't work always.

Almost all areas have some kind of fairly stable loop*. Yes you need to jump and grab ledges some time, or use teleporter**/the gravity pads/gymnast bars,, or use the supershotgun hook, but that works in your favor because enemy ability to track you and keep up with you in general is very poor when doing these things. Even in the densely packed slayer gate areas these kinds of loops exist. The main "skill" related part to this is to not move so quickly that you actually start to "lap" enemies on your circuit, because then you tend to get body blocked and/or just take damage because you are dodging directly towards something attacking you. But once you get the super shotgun you have a very easy and reusable panic button to drastically alter your course and reset to a safer position (while also farming up armor).

* the one area I distinctly remember not having a great loop for I camped in a good position next to the teleporter as a panic escape option and really abused grenades vs. grouped up enemies along with the equipment recharge bonus. It was the 3 short, narrow hallways in Taras Nabad, the area where you also fight a marauder as a challenge.

** I actually don't like using teleporters most of the time. It seems enemies lose track of you for a somewhat random amount of time after using one, which makes their movement unpredictable, spreads them out, and increases the chance of "lapping" something on your circuit. Ideally most of the enemies tend to clump up near the center of the arena over time.

These small things make all the difference in my opinion and enhance the gameplay. I mean you say it yourself,
you use the hook, you have to climb ledges, go to jumpads or teleporters, etc. You must mix them into your
movement, which makes for a movement/mobility that is different to plain circle strafing with dash in my opinion.
I was not under the impression that i repeated the same movement pattern all the time, even if the main "moves"
are dashing and strafing.

None of those aside from the hook take any skill, in fact it makes it much easier to find the optimal loop since you know that you'll be much harder to hit if you take the route with the monkey bars.
 

Silly Germans

Guest
I literally beat ultra nightmare rhythmically pounding shift every 0.75s. It absolutely works and trivializes combat assuming you move in a stable loop. Dashing in Shadow Warrior 2 is exactly the same as Doom Eternal except that Eternal punishes you with a 2x longer dash cooldown if you panic and dash a 2nd time too early.
I am not sure how you manage to move in a stable loop. There are enough encounters where it isn't possible due
to map design. I agree that you have to dash nonstop but you can't hold A or W down nonstop while hitting shift,
this doesn't work always.

Almost all areas have some kind of fairly stable loop*. Yes you need to jump and grab ledges some time, or use teleporter**/the gravity pads/gymnast bars,, or use the supershotgun hook, but that works in your favor because enemy ability to track you and keep up with you in general is very poor when doing these things. Even in the densely packed slayer gate areas these kinds of loops exist. The main "skill" related part to this is to not move so quickly that you actually start to "lap" enemies on your circuit, because then you tend to get body blocked and/or just take damage because you are dodging directly towards something attacking you. But once you get the super shotgun you have a very easy and reusable panic button to drastically alter your course and reset to a safer position (while also farming up armor).

* the one area I distinctly remember not having a great loop for I camped in a good position next to the teleporter as a panic escape option and really abused grenades vs. grouped up enemies along with the equipment recharge bonus. It was the 3 short, narrow hallways in Taras Nabad, the area where you also fight a marauder as a challenge.

** I actually don't like using teleporters most of the time. It seems enemies lose track of you for a somewhat random amount of time after using one, which makes their movement unpredictable, spreads them out, and increases the chance of "lapping" something on your circuit. Ideally most of the enemies tend to clump up near the center of the arena over time.

These small things make all the difference in my opinion and enhance the gameplay. I mean you say it yourself,
you use the hook, you have to climb ledges, go to jumpads or teleporters, etc. You must mix them into your
movement, which makes for a movement/mobility that is different to plain circle strafing with dash in my opinion.
I was not under the impression that i repeated the same movement pattern all the time, even if the main "moves"
are dashing and strafing.

None of those aside from the hook take any skill, in fact it makes it much easier to find the optimal loop since you know that you'll be much harder to hit if you take the route with the monkey bars.

I wouldn't call them the optimal route, rather situational. But nonetheless at least the game has those options.
Firing, using grenades, switching upgrades/weapons while being in the air makes for a fairly high skill ceiling
and Doom Eternal is one of the few single player games that comes close to classic arena shooter gameplay
like UT or Q3.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,228
So I came back and beat this on Nightmare. This is the first game in a long, long time I've gone back and beat again right after. It's not a true classic due to some compromised modern design conventions but its a solid fun shooter that makes my top...lets say 20 FPS of all time. Perhaps 15 or even the higher end of 10.
 

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Uhh, what?

Default dash cooldown (assuming you take the dash cooldown reducer because of course you take it, its the best upgrade in the game) is 0.75s. There is no instance in which dash ends up "on cooldown" and unable to be used vs. whatever, unless you fuck up and double dash. And about half this time is spent dashing to begin with, so really its more like a 0.375s cooldown.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of leading. Shots can't have "more leading". Shots in both games have infinite leading. If you are moving at 4 m/s and the shot would take 3s to hit you, the enemy always aims 12 meters ahead of your current position in both games. The difference is that in Doom 2016 you need to specifically recognize this and slow down, while in DoomE your velocity is rapidly changing such that you are almost never at the spot the projectile lands.

While I haven't 100% tested every enemy in the game I can confidentally state that the vast majority of enemies never intentionally overlead or underlead their target. They always lead by precisely your current velocity times the projectile travel time. e.g.:
You're right, I misunderstood how the system works. What actually happens is that the first shot in a projectile burst usually has no leading and is aimed directly at you, but the later ones in the burst are. So if you are strafing in one direction and then reverse directions to avoid the projectile with leading that would have hit you otherwise, you'll end up running into the projectile fired earlier that didn't have any leading--effectively boxing you in. This effect is better pronounced with slower projectiles or attacks that leave a persistent damage zone (like that of the Whiplash, or that attack in the second phase of the Gladiator boss fight where it extends both of its morning stars one after another at you). So if you reverse directions too fast you will get hit by the older attack, meaning it's more about dashing after the last shot with leading is fired.

(Alternatively (if you're familiar with Descent) you can also boxdodge, where you dodge in a box-like pattern by jumping and dashing over projectiles so the enemy will end up constantly overleading. This lets you dodge Arachnotron turret fire consistently until it starts spamming grenades or turret airburst projectiles, whose AoE boxdodging can't help you with.)

Dashing does trivialize dodging individual shots more, but in Eternal you will always be dealing with multiple projectiles coming from multiple enemies at once. Two asynchronously fired shots with leading from different enemies might then put you in a situation where it's impossible to dodge both at once, where the second one will catch you the moment you are reversing directions and are still accelerating to top speed. 2016 (mostly) prevented this by limiting how many attacks with accurate leading could be fired at once, but AFAIK Eternal turns open the tap here and lets enemies attack largely as they please. Since you now have a dash, you should be able to reliably deal with it.

On second thought, dashing might be too powerful once you've gotten a hang of running laps around the arenas, though that has more to do with enemies and/or arenas not actively trying to break up your laps to begin with, which could be accomplished by adding in more environmental hazards or making the arenas even smaller in order to force you to dash intelligently instead of just rhythmically dashing for speed. Portals in BATTLEMODE and 2016 have a cooldown when used, I don't know why Eternal's SP has none at all.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,352
Location
Lusitânia


So the Gauss Cannon recoil can be used as a "triple jump" and speed boost, the grappling hook allows to better aerial control and an increase in accelaration due to centrifugal force, and when the PC's speed is high enough you can continuously bunnyhop.

Nice.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
The speedruns of this game are insanely boring to watch because they're just a series of super jumps outside the geometry and then walking to the exit.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
This should definitely stay in. I love bugs like this. Reminds me of the Skyrim bucket. Creative use of unintended programming.

Here's a crazy idea.

They should make a map/DLC centered around these movement "bugs". Something for players who have mastered the game. Something like defrag but maybe not as intense.
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
2,323
Location
Illinois
Beat the game. Overall the story's dumb but you can skip it, level design and combat is sharper than Doom 2016, flavor-wise there are a few minor missteps (Stuff like frost cultist base. I enjoy it as a level but I don't like the snowy theme as much as bog-standard Doom UAC/hell/hell on Earth/etc), boss fights are surprisingly good. The gladiator's a bit of a bastard but the other two are closer to "Shoot it until it dies" without too much extra fuckery but ENOUGH extra fuckery that it feels like a boss. I actually like the marauders too, they don't cause too much stress even on nightmare but having an enemy immune to a lot of your panic buttons is a good idea. The two exceptions where they dunked on me was when they were first introduced, and one particular fight where it was a marauder and a lot of other fast demons, like those purple bastards.

Considering I already hold Doom 2016 in high regard, Eternal's way the hell up there too. I'd even put Eternal ahead of recent good retro shooters like Dusk and Amid Evil. The combat in Eternal's a huge treat and I'm hoping the DLC maps are made to let you fully leverage all your toys because if they make "Story maps" for the time between 2016 and Eternal I don't really care, but if they make fun balls to the wall levels then I'd be pumped. The frag and frost grenades may be a bit much though, with upgrades those feel like they're up a little more than they probably should be and they both do big damage.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
The story is not dumb but it would have greatly benefited from the "show don't tell" approach. There was a mural showing the angel giving Argent Energy. Short, concise and it lets the player figure it out himself. To me that is so much more fitting than long, drawn-out dialogue full of exposition. What if the player gradually found out on his own what the deal with Hell is? Kinda like how Anor Londo from Dark Souls is actually an illusion but the game doesn't tell you.
 

Silly Germans

Guest
They should have removed the way to "one-shot" Marauders on nightmare. Staggering them
with the super shotgun followed by a bfg shot is to easy.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
Here is a good way to cheese them. Lock on with the RL and when he lowers his shield blast him with three rockets, 6 if you have the master. Bonus points if you throw a grenade too but he will probably die before that.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,352
Location
Lusitânia
They should have removed the way to "one-shot" Marauders on nightmare. Staggering them
with the super shotgun followed by a bfg shot is to easy.

They should only remove that weakness if they remove all the Marauder encounters except the first one.
The Marauder should be a one time boss and not a recurring enemy because he breaks the game's established rules and severely hurts the pacing of the encounters he appears in.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,149
They should have removed the way to "one-shot" Marauders on nightmare. Staggering them
with the super shotgun followed by a bfg shot is to easy.

BFG shots are limited. I think using the BFG at specific points in late game encounters is a much better deal on Nightmare.
 

sullynathan

Arcane
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
6,473
Location
Not Europe
They should have removed the way to "one-shot" Marauders on nightmare. Staggering them
with the super shotgun followed by a bfg shot is to easy.

They should only remove that weakness if they remove all the Marauder encounters except the first one.
The Marauder should be a one time boss and not a recurring enemy because he breaks the game's established rules and severely hurts the pacing of the encounters he appears in.
Git gud
 

Silly Germans

Guest
They should have removed the way to "one-shot" Marauders on nightmare. Staggering them
with the super shotgun followed by a bfg shot is to easy.

BFG shots are limited. I think using the BFG at specific points in late game encounters is a much better deal on Nightmare.

You're getting enough bfg ammo for the hard encounters. Most of the time its placed either before or after such an encounter or even
int the encounter itself. If you're not wasting it, you have enough to finish Marauders and to clear the map when necessary. The point
is that there is some sort of "panic button" for Marauders in the game.
 

502

Learned
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
277
Location
Ankara
The speedruns of this game are insanely boring to watch because they're just a series of super jumps outside the geometry and then walking to the exit.

It's never the runners' fault that a game is breakable.

Look up "glitchless speedruns".
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
It's never the runners' fault that a game is breakable.

Look up "glitchless speedruns".

I am aware alternative categories exist, was using shorthand to refer to any% runs being very boring.
 

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