DOOM Eternal - the sequel to the 2016 reboot - now with The Ancient Gods DLC

[Squid]

Is multiplayer coming back?

Hugo Martin: Yes.

Marty Stratton: But not as... We're approaching the whole social side of playing Doom a bit differently. The Invasion is one of the ways you can play the Doom dance in a social way, but we are also working on a PvP component, but not the way we did it last time.

No deathmatch?

Marty Stratton: Yeah - a new approach to it. We'll be talking about it a lot more further down the road but it is a much more Doom-centric experience and we're developing it internally this time.

The Doom dance with your friends is a really big thing for us. We wanted to make sure everybody understood, first and foremost, we're taking the campaign and the Doom Slayer and giving a completely blown-out-the-top version of everything they love, but the social side, as people will see when we start to talk about that, is a really big thing for us."

I wonder if it will be that stupid loadout and burn card powerup crap or not this time around. I couldn't stand that about the 2016's multiplayer. Just give me good ol' weapon spawns and map control.

 

[Durandal]

If it has CTF and the new grappling hook can't attach to surfaces in multiplayer at least, then it should save us the time and effort and throw itself in the trash.

They'd have to make the super shotgun the starting weapon considering everyone would naturally gravitate to its grappling hook alt. fire, which is kind of ironic since old Doom 2 MP usually centered around who got the SS first in order to kill the other shmuck with relative ease.

 

[Lyric Suite]

This whole idea of the "epic super hero Doomguy," and all the various over the top and ironic badass pandering, is something that developed long after the fact and is more based on that one Doom comic book--the one that read like it was written by someone high on crack.

The Doom comic was actually funny:

https://www.doomworld.com/10years/doomcomic/

But that's what this shit is, humor. I don't know how something that was intended to be a joke got morphed into "tr00 Doom experience".

Some of my favored moments in Doom were staring into the distant mountains, while listening to this:

 

[Big Wrangle]

As one of the guys that presented Eternal sais, a main character is as badass as the mosters he defeats. Since Doomguy shows hell what for by himself, he proceeds to be seen as an ultimate badass, hence that image picked up.

 

[warpig]

As one of the guys that presented Eternal sais, a main character is as badass as the mosters he defeats. Since Doomguy shows hell what for by himself, he proceeds to be seen as an ultimate badass, hence that image picked up.

It's fucking retarded. Doom was a violent and dark game but I dont recall all this power fantasy "im a BADASS XDDDD" and "demons are scared of the doom guy XD" vibe around it.

 

[aweigh]

didn't any of you guys play halo? they basically just turned doomguy into a master chief clone, except it's demons afraid of him instead of aliens.

there's a similar scene of human UNC troops fearing/respecting the master chief in halo 3, but it's not as _awesome_ obviously.

 

[Dayyālu]

NuDoom is inspired by Brutal Doom, not of Doom. BD feeds off RIP AND TEAR memes. It's an entirely different.... feel compared to stock Doom, fed mostly by modding.

Case closed.

Also, "GAME IS BAD BECAUSE MY FEELINGS" is dumb. We're going from legit critique of mechanics (Glory Kills) to frankly embarassing GAME BAD BECAUSE FEELINGS.

 

[Master]

Glory Kills were introduced in Brutal Doom, afaik. The only stupid part of the mod. People complained how stupid it was... And of course, these devs then had to put just that into NewDoom.

 

[Deakul]

And then they implemented those glory kills pretty well, no matter what these silly made up arguments say.

Like I said, you just have to be mindful of when to use them... there is some tactical foresight required when doing them.

That doesn't make them a shitty mechanic at all.

Mechanically, the AI can't even really attack you when you come out of the GK. It can happen but it's rare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KQNpQD8Ayo&t=2525s

 

[Lyric Suite]

Also, "GAME IS BAD BECAUSE MY FEELINGS" is dumb. We're going from legit critique of mechanics (Glory Kills) to frankly embarassing GAME BAD BECAUSE FEELINGS.

You can excuse all the retardation found in Bethesda games that way, idiot. All writing is "feelings". Art, atmosphere, attitude, it's all "feelings", and they all fucking matter.

"But, but, only gameplay matters, because it's the only thing that's objectively verifiable, everything else is feeeeelingz lul".

Except the gameplay is shit too.

 

[Lyric Suite]

didn't any of you guys play halo?

Nope.

I'm sure most of the people who play nuDoom did but never played the original Doom though.

 

[warpig]

There's this whole "Now this is REAL Doom, unlike stooopid Doom 3 XDDD" angle. Doom 3 at least got the "Doom feelz" right. Nu Doom misses the mark even here on top of gameplay. A nail to coffin.

didn't any of you guys play halo? they basically just turned doomguy into a master chief clone, except it's demons afraid of him instead of aliens.

there's a similar scene of human UNC troops fearing/respecting the master chief in halo 3, but it's not as _awesome_ obviously.

I played Halo 1 and 2, the stuff you mention is there but it's not as over the top an memey as in bethesdoom. At least not in the first two games.

 

[Master]

I have to replay Halo at some point. Cant remember a single thing from that game.

 

[Durandal]

Like I said, you just have to be mindful of when to use them... there is some tactical foresight required when doing them.

You're only assuming this. Most people will tell you it's either completely optional to use or use it all the time, not like it's something that requires skill to do (it absolutely doesn't, literally walk up and press F to brutalize) or that it requires 'tactical foresight' in knowing when to use it (even though the game never treats Glory Kills that way), foresight which relies on limited/incomplete/outdated information about your surroundings which is inherently limited in first-person games, as opposed to an isometric/side-scrolling/third-person game where the implementation of being locked in place while a takedown animation plays suits the gameplay more because your vision doesn't get completely limited in the process.

Not to mention that Glory Kills are useless when on high health (drops only +5HP lol, doesn't even overcharge) once you get the Chainsaw, and that the invincibility frames you get encourage you to perform Glory Kills more often regardless of the situation. If I could get interrupted while performing Glory Kills, then I'd actually have to think about using them. But they really wanted players to use Glory Kills at all in order to justify its existence as a finisher, not as a tactical option you're sometimes better off not using.

Mechanically, the AI can't even really attack you when you come out of the GK. It can happen but it's rare.

The video said new attacks are prohibited during a Glory Kill. Not before or right after. Meaning the possibility of getting hit right after the invincibility ends still remains, they just applied some band-aid on top. Notice his reasoning for instating a combat pause. He says testers were often getting pelted with projectiles right after the Glory Kills ended, so the reduce the likelihood of that happening they prevented most of the attacks from happening at all, instead of telling the testers to git gud and learn when to use it. Just how exactly did you come to the conclusion that you were ever meant to be tactical about the usage of Glory Kills?

 

[Deakul]

Through the powers of observation.

"Oh, it's a little too hairy here to use this ability that causes me to be stuck in place for a split second, I better not use it here and give myself an opening so that I don't get attacked after it's done."

I really can't believe that I even have to explain this.

 

[Dayyālu]

There's this whole "Now this is REAL Doom, unlike stooopid Doom 3 XDDD" angle. Doom 3 at least got the "Doom feelz" right. Nu Doom misses the mark even here on top of gameplay. A nail to coffin.

Doom3: a game with a top-tier atmosphere (they nailed right the feeling of tech&hell corruption) and with frankly embarassing gameplay. Doom3's reviews at the time savaged the game because it's nothing like Doom: the weapons are anemic, the enemies are slow and the design is far more alike a failed attempt at survival horror than Doom's FPS roots.

To think that someone hand placed at least a dozen "Imp behind a Door" encounters in Doom3 is beyond belief. A triumph of design, placing a Imp behind a door so he can istantly claw you (unavoidable damage, sign of bad design). And they did it at least a dozen times! NuDoom is far, far better gameplay-wise than Doom3.

All writing is "feelings". Art, atmosphere, attitude, it's all "feelings", and they all fucking matter. Except the gameplay is shit too.

Considering you are kinda incapable of explaining why the things you say are shit bar "because my gut says so", and when pressed you dump Youtube videos, I guess you don't have an opinion bar being a contrarian for the sake of it. Why is NuDoom's gameplay bad compared, to, well, most shooters in the last 15 years? Have you played it? Or you have merely watched some Youtube videos?

Whatever, to each one his deviancy....

I have to replay Halo at some point. Cant remember a single thing from that game.

Halo is very, very slow. I can argue it aged worse than Doom, Quake, Half Life 1&2 and the like: we are no longer surprised by the graphics and the open spaces, the level design by itself gets worse and worse as the game proceeds, and the game takes a turn for the worse with the Flood. Uhngh, I still remember the Library. Some Halo mechanics were well designed (the union of regen shielding AND non-regenerating health, close combat, grenade variety and quick throws) and some levels are "cinematic" as fuck, but it's so freakin' slow most of the times and only the Elites and the Hunters give interesting combat. It shoots its load early, and never recovers.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Spirit World and The Living End will never be topped.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Considering you are kinda incapable of explaining why the things you say are shit bar "because my gut says so"\

Those are things that cannot be explained, moron, which doesn't mean they are not things that cannot be assessed objectively.

You cannot explain why Torment's writing is better than that of Oblivion, or why that of Shakespeare is better than that of Torment, or why the music of Beethoven is better than that of Britney Spears. You have to rely on "muh gut says so", which means none of those things are true, right? Lul.

Fucking imbeciles.

 

[Durandal]

Through the powers of observation.

"Oh, it's a little too hairy here to use this ability that causes me to be stuck in place for a split second, I better not use it here and give myself an opening so that I don't get attacked after it's done."

I really can't believe that I even have to explain this.

Almost every facet of the implementation of Glory Kills contradicts your statement.

Why are you made invincible during the animation if you have to be smart about it? Why do enemies stop attacking during the animation if you have to be smart about it? How can you be smart about it if you can't even see or hear what's happening around you in order to ensure that you won't get attacked the moment you exit the animation? Why would you ever be smart about it if the amount of attacks and damage dealt from attacks are negligible on difficulties below Nightmare? Why would you be smart about it if the drops from Glory Kills when made at high health are completely negligible? If you have to be smart about it, why are there Runes which make Glory Kills much safer and easier to use?

If anything, gauging from developer interviews and the actual implementation of Glory Kills, it's meant to be a finisher move, not an actual tactical option with risks and rewards attached. The intended risk here being staying close to enemies at all, not locking yourself into place. You getting peltered by projectiles and melee swipes after locking yourself into place is a consequence of the shoddy implementation of Glory Kills which is further exacerbated by the limiting first-person perspective and shit sound design.

The developers tried to sidestep the side-effect of getting slapped after doing a Glory Kill by giving you invincibility and instating a combat pause, they didn't try to design the game around this fact.

That it ends up playing out that way on Nightmare is more unintentional than anything, but Glory Kills end up not being worth the risk at all given their often negligible drops, the risk of getting slapped for 50DMG and getting briefly disoriented, and the fact that killing enemies the regular way when on low health often gives you enough emergency health to sustain yourself off. Glory Kills would be worth using more on Nightmare if they refilled even more health at the reasonable cost of having no invincibility. As it stands most Ultra-Nightmare players never use it outside the first act because it's just not worth it. You're better off using Siphon Grenades.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-08-how-people-are-beating-doom-on-nightmare-without-dying

Somewhat dispiritingly, DraQu dispels the usefulness of one of my favourite features in Doom: the Glory Kills. These gleefully animated finishing moves that pulverise demons into juicy fountains of gore not only look cool, but also reward players with health drops. They additionally function as a form of mild teleportation as you can zip towards a fatigued enemy from quite a distance (especially with the Seek and Destroy rune equipped). Yet DraQu very seldom employs this maneuver. Here's why:

"The thing about Glory Kills is that on Nightmare and Ultra-Nightmare, they don't really give you anything. You might get one health drop, which is barely five HP. And you really don't do anything with that on Nightmare. But the thing with Glory Kills is that it locks you into an animation and during that animation other enemies can swarm around you. So you're left in a really tough situation after you're finished. So I only did it in really rough situations where I pretty much had to."

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[Jezal_k23]

Considering you are kinda incapable of explaining why the things you say are shit bar "because my gut says so"\

Those are things that cannot be explained, moron, which doesn't mean they are not things that cannot be assessed objectively.

You cannot explain why Torment's writing is better than that of Oblivion, or why that of Shakespeare is better than that of Torment, or why the music of Beethoven is better than that of Britney Spears. You have to rely on "muh gut says so", which means none of those things are true, right? Lul.

Fucking imbeciles.

That is pretty damn weak. What you're saying is "It is literally impossible to defend my points". That's so fucking mediocre.

Through the powers of observation.

"Oh, it's a little too hairy here to use this ability that causes me to be stuck in place for a split second, I better not use it here and give myself an opening so that I don't get attacked after it's done."

I really can't believe that I even have to explain this.

Almost every facet of the implementation of Glory Kills contradicts your statement.

Why are you made invincible during the animation if you have to be smart about it? Why do enemies stop attacking during the animation if you have to be smart about it? How can you be smart about it if you can't even see or hear what's happening around you in order to ensure that you won't get attacked the moment you exit the animation? Why would you ever be smart about it if the amount of attacks and damage dealt from attacks are negligible on difficulties below Nightmare? Why would you be smart about it if the drops from Glory Kills when made at high health are completely negligible? If you have to be smart about it, why are there Runes which make Glory Kills much safer and easier to use?

If anything, gauging from developer interviews and the actual implementation of Glory Kills, it's meant to be a finisher move, not an actual tactical option with risks and rewards attached. The intended risk here being staying close to enemies at all, not locking yourself into place. You getting peltered by projectiles and melee swipes after locking yourself into place is a consequence of the shoddy implementation of Glory Kills which is further exacerbated by the limiting first-person perspective and shit sound design.

The developers tried to sidestep the side-effect of getting slapped after doing a Glory Kill by giving you invincibility and instating a combat pause, they didn't try to design the game around this fact.

That it ends up playing out that way on Nightmare is more unintentional than anything, but Glory Kills end up not being worth the risk at all given their often negligible drops, the risk of getting slapped for 50DMG and getting briefly disoriented, and the fact that killing enemies the regular way when on low health often gives you enough emergency health to sustain yourself off. Glory Kills would be worth using more on Nightmare if they refilled even more health at the reasonable cost of having no invincibility. As it stands most Ultra-Nightmare players never use it outside the first act because it's just not worth it. You're better off using Siphon Grenades.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-08-how-people-are-beating-doom-on-nightmare-without-dying

Somewhat dispiritingly, DraQu dispels the usefulness of one of my favourite features in Doom: the Glory Kills. These gleefully animated finishing moves that pulverise demons into juicy fountains of gore not only look cool, but also reward players with health drops. They additionally function as a form of mild teleportation as you can zip towards a fatigued enemy from quite a distance (especially with the Seek and Destroy rune equipped). Yet DraQu very seldom employs this maneuver. Here's why:

"The thing about Glory Kills is that on Nightmare and Ultra-Nightmare, they don't really give you anything. You might get one health drop, which is barely five HP. And you really don't do anything with that on Nightmare. But the thing with Glory Kills is that it locks you into an animation and during that animation other enemies can swarm around you. So you're left in a really tough situation after you're finished. So I only did it in really rough situations where I pretty much had to."

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I think you've arrived at an important conclusion then. You don't have to use them. You can all play the game without using glory kills now! You've just proved it! Hooray!

This is what everyone wanted right? I'm glad we will all be able to enjoy the game now.

 

[Deakul]

This is a broken record argument, the point is then that GKs don't hamper gameplay much nor do they benefit much(besides looking fucking awesome and helping out with health and ammo sometimes).

You're all being overdramatic about the supposed drawbacks and how BADLY they hamper the game.(which is barely at all)

So the solution is, like tav said, to just not use them! Turn off the indicators and all that jazz and just waste your ammo finishing them off instead of using an ammo-less execution move that can also top off your health and ammo.

Also thanks for proving my point, you admitted that GKs can be unsafe to do... hence my entire fucking point, holy shit.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Speaking of ''muh feelings'', looks like it just wasn't the Codex's feelings the nu-DOOM just hurt.

Except the gameplay is shit too.

Did you play it?

 

[Lyric Suite]

That is pretty damn weak. What you're saying is "It is literally impossible to defend my points". That's so fucking mediocre.

You don't seem to even understand what the argument is.

To wit: Britney Spears was a greater genius than Beethoven. Prove me wrong.

Ho wait, you can't, which doesn't mean it isn't fucking false.

 

[Durandal]

This is a broken record argument, the point is then that GKs don't hamper gameplay much nor do they benefit much(besides looking fucking awesome and helping out with health and ammo sometimes).

A game mechanic which is neither useful or useless, yet remained the focal point of the advertising to this game. You don't think there's some room of improvement for Glory Kills?

This isometric twin-stick shooter game called RUINER ripped off Glory Kills verbatim and just called it Ruiner Kills, but it actually worked much better there, because a) considering it's a isometric game I can see what's going around me as I perform a Ruiner Kill and decide based on that information what to do next after the Ruiner Kill ends without feeling helplessly blindsided, b) Ruiner Kills consistently restore one unit of health and energy which is significant enough in this game to make using it always worthwhile instead of restoring only +5HP, and c) doing Ruiner Kills gives you a big speed boost which stacks with other Ruiner Kills, so there's reason for doing it even when at full health. nuDoom then locks the potentially more interesting aspects of Glory Kills behind upgrades for whatever reason.

So the solution is, like tav said, to just not use them! Turn off the indicators and all that jazz and just waste your ammo finishing them off instead of using an ammo-less execution move that can also top off your health and ammo.

The Chainsaw ensures you never run out of ammo to begin with, even though Chainsaw kills are technically Glory Kills on their own, so you're not free of the curse. The amount of ammo placed is sparse enough that you'll often be forced to use the Chainsaw.

Then there's several daily challenges which require you to perform a certain amount of certain Glory Kills for upgrade points. While the upgrade system is shit I do not see any reason to curb myself and lose out on useful upgrades by not doing the challenges.

Sometimes I want to finish off an enemy with a quick melee attack, but I can't. The melee attack input is the same as the Glory Kill prompt, so it's not possible to finish off with a staggered enemy with a quick melee attack, I can only perform this fucking Glory Kill thing instead or waste my ammo on an enemy who's already good as dead. While ammo is not an issue, I don't want to use the Chainsaw (and by extent a Glory Kill) more than necessary. Should I disable the Glory Kill indicator, I might end up performing a Glory Kill instead of a regular melee attack as intended.

The first levels are just misleading in this regard, as ammo in the first levels definitely is a problem because you do not have the Chainsaw yet and your max ammo caps are ridiculously low, so you're constantly forced to use Glory Kills at this point if you do not want to waste what little ammo you have or use the rinkydink Pistol. The impression you get from the starting level is that you definitely should be using Glory Kills all the time, only for this to turn out to be a practical joke on your part once you get the Chainsaw and some ammo upgrades.

In order to accomodate Glory Kills, enemies had to be made tankier so they can't always get killed in one shot and can enter a stagger state in the first place, and with tankier enemies the amount of enemies on-screen had to be reduced to keep things fair. As a result of Glory Kills, item placement in levels has become much less important because you can get health and ammo regularly by killing enemies, so levels have much less thought put into them in terms of item placement, as the element of resource management becomes trivial when the game essentially takes care of my resources for me by giving me extra health when I need it and giving me a weapon which can refill half my ammo and instakill an enemy as well. And then be incredibly lenient for ammo with the latter.

Also thanks for proving my point, you admitted that GKs can be unsafe to do... hence my entire fucking point, holy shit.

Your point was that Glory Kills had to be applied smartly, not that they were just unsafe. The unsafety incidentally resulted from a shit implementation which does not suit a first-person shooter to begin with. They are unsafe, but also not really worth using on their own merits to begin with. The game pretends it does, however.

It's just a shit mechanic. It's a noobtrap which you're better off not using, but the game is essentially designed around the existence of Glory Kills, so you're "heavily encouraged" to use it in some form or another and just its existence has deeper consequences on the design.

Just let me dash into enemies for Glory Kills instead, that's the most essential improvement Glory Kills could have.


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[Unkillable Cat]