Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Dreamfall: The Longest Journey

WallaceChambers

Learned
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Messages
311
I liked Dreamfall when I played it recently. It's a little weird story wise because similar to Blackwell Deception it establishes cliffhanger plot threads there are unceremoniously dropped in the next game. It's funny to think that by modern standards this would actually be a fairly puzzle heavy game just for having mechanics like item combinations at all.

The combat is ass but I like that you can skip most of it by doing an optional puzzle or choosing the right dialogue. Still, it would have been better if they didn't include it. There's only like 1 fight for every hour of normal gameplay and they last 2 minutes, if that.

The romance subplot was cringey ass hell too, I'm actually glad that thread was dropped like a hot potato.
 

Maxie

Guest
I liked Dreamfall when I played it recently. It's a little weird story wise because similar to Blackwell Deception it establishes cliffhanger plot threads there are unceremoniously dropped in the next game. It's funny to think that by modern standards this would actually be a fairly puzzle heavy game just for having mechanics like item combinations at all.

The combat is ass but I like that you can skip most of it by doing an optional puzzle or choosing the right dialogue. Still, it would have been better if they didn't include it. There's only like 1 fight for every hour of normal gameplay and they last 2 minutes, if that.

The romance subplot was cringey ass hell too, I'm actually glad that thread was dropped like a hot potato.
The robot factory stealth segment was just wrong though
 

bddevil

Educated
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
71
This was one of my biggest gaming disappointments ever.
This was probably the game that made me forever skeptical of any sequels.

The writing was still decent Ragnar, before he went full retard. Although signs were already there. I think it would have been better as a standalone title.
The TLJ universe got bloated with little point to it. Zoe as a protagonist never appealed to me, besides being eye candy. The game is a lot darker than TLJ; whereas TLJ was fairy tale-ish, Dreamfall had the conspiracy/evil corp angle. And not only did it not resolve any of few TLJ loose ends, it presented its own loose ends, tenfold.

There was not much gameplay.

Wow, the disappointment was real. I remember finishing the game and going WTF was that...
 

WallaceChambers

Learned
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Messages
311
I do agree that Dreamfall bloats the TLJ lore with the concept of "storytime." It kind of diminishes the concept of "the balance" to have yet another ethereal mystic force that influences the course of everyone's lives. Also, storytime is just a much less potent metaphor than the balance between magic and science.

I actually wonder if Ragnar still believes in the ideas of TLJ. That a balance between everything stark and arcadia represent (magic v tech/order v chaos/emotion v logic/etc) is necessary to sustain the world. That it's even worth separating your soul from your body for a 1000 years (ultimate sacrifice) to maintain.

I remember reading that he felt TLJ was "too naive" in and interview, once. I always wondered what he meant by that. But there is a reason why The Longest Journey is still his most enduring work. It's the most thematically well realized game he's made so far.
 

bddevil

Educated
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
71
I do agree that Dreamfall bloats the TLJ lore with the concept of "storytime." It kind of diminishes the concept of "the balance" to have yet another ethereal mystic force that influences the course of everyone's lives. Also, storytime is just a much less potent metaphor than the balance between magic and science.

I actually wonder if Ragnar still believes in the ideas of TLJ. That a balance between everything stark and arcadia represent (magic v tech/order v chaos/emotion v logic/etc) is necessary to sustain the world. That it's even worth separating your soul from your body for a 1000 years (ultimate sacrifice) to maintain.

I remember reading that he felt TLJ was "too naive" in and interview, once. I always wondered what he meant by that. But there is a reason why The Longest Journey is still his most enduring work. It's the most thematically well realized game he's made so far.
I can see how he thought it's too naive. A lot of game was - like I've mentioned - fairy tale-ish, had quite a few black/white cliche moments and no real edginess. But that's part of the reason why TLJ was so revered. Sure it was naive, but works dont have to be super realistic and ridden with complex politics or struggle. A far less naive Dreamfall: Chapters is cringe as hell, and not just because it has SJW/far left stuff, it's how moralizing and dull is the way it's presented. TLJ had this kind of stuff as well, but it didn't have an agenda to tell you; April landlord's was a lesbian. Matter of fact. Didn't focus on that - it just was. April was a female. Great, never really focused on her position in society. Roper Clacks was defeated by a calculator. Kinda silly, so what ? Burns Flipper is a caricature character, as is his name, yet he works. Exaggeration works in computer games. Realism is hard to pull off writing-wise.

TLJ was sublime. Memorable characters. Great lore (even though sometimes the amount of exposition being dumped on you was crazy, it was always organic). Great dialogue.

And yeah, storytime was a foreign concept that could exist on its own, and not diminishing the existing concept of balance. To me, dreamfall games always felt like Ragnar got bored of the TLJ stuff and really wanted to depart into something more edgy, realistic and more complex. It's like he wanted to make a new story but he had to use existing IP to tie few things together, and he reluctantly did. If you were a huge fan of TLJ, that just rubbed you the wrong way.
 

Verylittlefishes

Sacro Bosco
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
4,731
Location
Oneoropolis
TLJ was a masterpiece, Dreamfall was very good (and it is still very beautiful apart from character models). Both games had problems though (too challenging puzzles and especially retarded combat/stealth sequences influenced by Tomb Raider or whatever).
 

Verylittlefishes

Sacro Bosco
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
4,731
Location
Oneoropolis
lol, when first two games came out, Durov was a #1 fan (and nobody knew him), by the time 3rd game released he is a character in it.
durov.jpg
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Messages
999
TLJ was a "masterpiece" when you were an emotional teen. Today, it's supposed to be considered cringeworthy SJW trash by the stalwart Codexian grizzly.
I'm nearly 60 now. If memory serves I was either in my late 30's or early 40's when I first played TLJ. I know you're being sarcastic and I was less sensitive to politics in the early aughts but I can't actually remember much idpol or weird shit in TLJ. I really loved that game even though as a fan of the old almighty Sierra and Lucasarts days it wasn't as good as those games. I thought it told it's story well. Presented two very interesting worlds with good characters and also possessed a really cool mythology and even a little pathos. I have no idea what's been happening to Ragnar but his brain melted out about half way through Dreamfall. Lots of weird illogical nonsense in that game but maybe Funcom reigned him in? Because it was all on full display in Chapters. Which was abhorrent and anyone involved should have been ashamed. Chapters was Last Jedi levels of salted and scorched earth on The Longest Journey franchise.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
I played Dreamfall first and I liked it. Still do. But playing TLJ after that, I realized what we were robbed off. It's probably the best time I've ever had playing a game with a group of people.
 
Last edited:

Verylittlefishes

Sacro Bosco
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
4,731
Location
Oneoropolis
I played Dreamfall first and I liked it. But playing TLJ after that, I realized what we were robbed off. It's probably the best time I've ever had playing a game with a group of people.

That's the reason why you should play the series from the beginning.

I played Dark Souls 3 and thought it was gud. But then I played Dark Souls 1...
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
I certainly didn't dislike TLJ (and I did very much dislike Dreamfall), but I don't think it is in the same league as classic adventures. The fundamental design is not good. The puzzles are not good, and the pacing of puzzle-solving and exploration is quite bad, skewed heavily toward ping-ponging from lock to key back to lock. The puzzles are often not well contextualized -- a point that needs a little elaboration.

Solving the puzzles generally does not develop April's character -- by this I mean, the way she solves puzzles is not indicative of character traits (compare SQ, PQ, Loom, Full Throttle, QFG, Gabriel Knight, etc.). The test here is, write the following sentence, "Because April Ryan is [X], she solves this puzzle by doing [Y]." That sentence is often coherent for the games above ("Because Roger is a bumbling janitor," "Because Sonny is a by-the-books cop," "Because Bobbin is a naive Weaver," "Because Ben is a bad-ass biker," etc.). It is not often coherent for April, in part because I have no idea what [X] should be ("a bougie art student"?), in part because there is no [X] that works for the kind of puzzles she does, other than "a bumbling janitor" or "tinkering scavenger," which she obviously is not. The incoherence of the puzzles is one reason I don't know what [X] is. The game never teaches us April's character through the gameplay. It tells us things about her through exposition, but those are largely unrelated to the gameplay.

And the nature of the puzzles also generally does not develop the setting. This is particularly true of Stark, where the puzzles are sometimes at odds with what the setting is supposed to be. (One that I recall is the gasoline powered heater, a technology that makes no sense at all in the setting.) The best adventure games use puzzles to bring the setting to life. Gabriel Knight (which I think has its flaws) does this pretty well. Loom does it exceptionally well. And King's Quest, for all its foibles, uses the puzzles very cleverly to embody the norms of fairy tales. By contrast, adventuring in Stark does not feel like a dystopian science fictional adventure, and adventuring in Arcadia doesn't feel like a fantasy epic. I don't mean watching the story. Watching the story is fine in these regards. I mean playing it. The obstacles April is overcoming, and how she's overcoming them, don't embody the feel of those settings -- compare Indiana Jones, The Dig, QFG, etc.

In addition to these flaws with the puzzles, TLJ's dialogues are much too long. The long dialogues are part of the game's appeal, of course, because they allow TLJ to present itself as having a richer setting, a more nuanced story, and more developed characters than other adventure games have. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But the dialogues in TLJ are little different from the audio cassette that came with Loom -- you sit back and listen to what amounts to window dressing. They aren't gameplay (there is never a wrong options, and you almost always have to go through every option to proceed) any more than wiki browsing is gameplay. You generally aren't expected to retain, digest, and employ the things characters tell you to solve puzzles. In other words, there is a cartoon you're watching in parallel with a game you're playing. The cartoon is fine as far as it goes, but it prevents the game from ever having a proper adventuring flow IMO. [EDIT: To some extent, this attack is valid against Primordia and Strangeland, too. But (1) I've tried to keep the dialogues much shorter than TLJ's for that reason and (2) you often do learn things in dialogues that are necessary to solving puzzles. Also, I'd be the last person to say that I can design games at a level with the classics.]

Finally, on the story itself, I think the charge that it is merely teenage pap is probably too harsh, but I think the suggestion that the story seemed good because of when the game came out is fair. When TLJ was released: (1) there was a fairly limited supply of multimedia, serious fantasy/scifi story-telling produced for a domestic English-speaking audience* and (2) adventure games generally had silly stories. So an adventure game that was basically an animated Piers Anthony novel (the specific Anthony series being duped is Split Infinity) with a serious Melrose Place kind of story-telling satisfied a need that other games weren't reaching. Moreover, TLJ looked very beautiful at the time (and still looks pretty nice!). Nowadays, most adventure games have serious stories about troubled women, and multimedia, serious fantasy/scifi is like 90% of large budget productions across all media. TLJ wouldn't stand out today, and I doubt it would be remembered as a classic.

(* Yes, yes, I know Ragnar is not from an Anglophone country. Still -- Dreamfall is very much "domestic" compared to localized anime.)

To me, TLJ belongs in the camp of "very pleasantly remembered adventures than weren't Lucas, Sierra, or Revolution" -- games like Kyrandia 2, Dragonsphere, Rise of the Dragon, etc. I don't see any reason to crusade against it, but I do sometimes feel obliged to hold the line against its being considered a classic.

In terms of politics, I don't think the criticism is apt. Dreamfall is goofily heavy handed and tries to address current events and specific trending issues (i.e., events current to the game's release). TLJ has lots of political messaging, but it's the kind of messaging that is basically generic and akin to what you'd find in Lord of the Rings (big corporations bad, environment good, different sorts of people can band together to fight oppression, etc.). The college kids seem like college kids ought to.
 
Last edited:

WallaceChambers

Learned
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Messages
311
I can see how he thought it's too naive. A lot of game was - like I've mentioned - fairy tale-ish, had quite a few black/white cliche moments and no real edginess.

I didn't take that as what he meant. I think the reason he said that is because Ragnar's ideological position has shifted significantly since TLJ. The idea of the most important thing in the world is the balance between the two forces which can be seen as having metaphorical applicability for things like right and left politics, masculine and feminine, reason and emotion, etc is likely what he considers naĂŻve about the game.

At least, that's what looking at what he did with the fiction and said in interviews has lead me to believe. For a person who's become increasingly one sided (although far from the absolute worst gaming has to offer in this regard) I can see why TLJ would register as naĂŻve. The idea that both sides need each other to balance one another is absolutely not the message of his later games. But I disagree with Ragnar, I think TLJ intuitively got the psychology much more right than his other games, more right than a lot of stories, actually.
 

Maxie

Guest
I've replayed TLJ last week so I'm able to shed some fresh light on the nature of this double-naturedness of TLJ - the cataclysmic event April tries to stop in TLJ is the final end of the Balance, as in, Stark and Arcadia come together again - having been split from singular Earth quite some time ago. Ragnar tries to introduce some ambiguity by having the Sentinel and the Vanguard represent isolationist and merger worldviews, but it falls flat because of the way the Vanguard operates.

While citizens of Marcuria don't shy away from dismissing the Sentinel as deliberately obscurantist and unreasonably conservative, in the end there are no unsympathetic Sentinel characters April interacts with, she's introduced to the bigger world by the Sentinel-aligned Cortez and works to uphold the Sentinel agenda. The Vanguard are only ever introduced as goblins invading Marcuria, or as the Church of Voltec, led by the vaguely Hitlerian Jacob McAllen. Towards the finale, Jacob shares some of his worldview, but right after that he attempts to kill April (by setting a Shifter mutant after her). The Vanguard, aiming to reunite both worlds, are fucking evil.

Despite this, Ragnar has a parallel story going on, with Gordon Halloway ultimately reuniting his Stark body with his Arcadian soul and becoming whole - a reasonable individual, able to consciously become the Guardian, thus upholding the Balance. By his personal unification, cosmological separation can be upheld. I found this rather weak, and on the whole the story is favouring Arcadia despite its many downsides. Even Brian Westhouse, so quick to complain about Arcadia when April meets him, will rather die defending his house in Marcuria, than flee anywhere.

What annoyed me much more about Ragnar's personal journey with the series is the conclusion of TLJ - April appears not to be the Guardian, Gordon is. All of her work was essentially to lure (??) Gordon inside the Guardian's Realm after paving the road for him. April was ready to spend the next one thousand (1000) years maintaining the Balance, risked her life to get all the story items and had her friends brutalized - for what? For a pat on the back? She leaves the Realm with Crow, awfully chipper and optimistic despite all that, and is implied to have become Lady Alvane many decades later.

Dreamfall revisits this dreadful finale, and retroactively makes April feel betrayed about her ordeal. Even her make-up turns gothic as fuck, if only for some leftover emo audience to empathize with her. Ragnar came up with a weirdo ending for TLJ, and rewrote it in an even weirder way in the sequel (which wasn't April's story anymore, anyway).
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,703
Location
California
I had forgotten that twist. It's probably an instance where the imperatives of franchising overcame good storytelling.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,385
Location
Copenhagen
I had forgotten that twist. It's probably an instance where the imperatives of franchising overcame good storytelling.

Or just poor storytelling. Ragnar reminds me of GRRM in the way that he has these inspiring, excellent ideas and has a few spots of truly novel world building but at the end of the day he’s pretty bad at the basic craftsmanship of writing. TLJ was already a bit of a clutter, structurally, but Dreamfall is an out-an-out hot mess. It’s an architect having a unique vision for an original building, but lacking the ability to hit nails into a board properly
 
Last edited:

Verylittlefishes

Sacro Bosco
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
4,731
Location
Oneoropolis
I've replayed TLJ last week so I'm able to shed some fresh light on the nature of this double-naturedness of TLJ - the cataclysmic event April tries to stop in TLJ is the final end of the Balance, as in, Stark and Arcadia come together again - having been split from singular Earth quite some time ago. Ragnar tries to introduce some ambiguity by having the Sentinel and the Vanguard represent isolationist and merger worldviews, but it falls flat because of the way the Vanguard operates.

While citizens of Marcuria don't shy away from dismissing the Sentinel as deliberately obscurantist and unreasonably conservative, in the end there are no unsympathetic Sentinel characters April interacts with, she's introduced to the bigger world by the Sentinel-aligned Cortez and works to uphold the Sentinel agenda. The Vanguard are only ever introduced as goblins invading Marcuria, or as the Church of Voltec, led by the vaguely Hitlerian Jacob McAllen. Towards the finale, Jacob shares some of his worldview, but right after that he attempts to kill April (by setting a Shifter mutant after her). The Vanguard, aiming to reunite both worlds, are fucking evil.

Despite this, Ragnar has a parallel story going on, with Gordon Halloway ultimately reuniting his Stark body with his Arcadian soul and becoming whole - a reasonable individual, able to consciously become the Guardian, thus upholding the Balance. By his personal unification, cosmological separation can be upheld. I found this rather weak, and on the whole the story is favouring Arcadia despite its many downsides. Even Brian Westhouse, so quick to complain about Arcadia when April meets him, will rather die defending his house in Marcuria, than flee anywhere.

What annoyed me much more about Ragnar's personal journey with the series is the conclusion of TLJ - April appears not to be the Guardian, Gordon is. All of her work was essentially to lure (??) Gordon inside the Guardian's Realm after paving the road for him. April was ready to spend the next one thousand (1000) years maintaining the Balance, risked her life to get all the story items and had her friends brutalized - for what? For a pat on the back? She leaves the Realm with Crow, awfully chipper and optimistic despite all that, and is implied to have become Lady Alvane many decades later.

Dreamfall revisits this dreadful finale, and retroactively makes April feel betrayed about her ordeal. Even her make-up turns gothic as fuck, if only for some leftover emo audience to empathize with her. Ragnar came up with a weirdo ending for TLJ, and rewrote it in an even weirder way in the sequel (which wasn't April's story anymore, anyway).

Maxie, this is the most informative post I ever saw from you.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Messages
999
I
What annoyed me much more about Ragnar's personal journey with the series is the conclusion of TLJ - April appears not to be the Guardian, Gordon is. All of her work was essentially to lure (??) Gordon inside the Guardian's Realm after paving the road for him. April was ready to spend the next one thousand (1000) years maintaining the Balance, risked her life to get all the story items and had her friends brutalized - for what? For a pat on the back? She leaves the Realm with Crow, awfully chipper and optimistic despite all that, and is implied to have become Lady Alvane many decades later.

Dreamfall revisits this dreadful finale, and retroactively makes April feel betrayed about her ordeal. Even her make-up turns gothic as fuck, if only for some leftover emo audience to empathize with her. Ragnar came up with a weirdo ending for TLJ, and rewrote it in an even weirder way in the sequel (which wasn't April's story anymore, anyway).

I think as the resident old fucker here I have a unique perspective I'd like to share. The idea for the ending was a play on the title. April went on a long journey. The journey was what mattered. Not the ending. I realise that in almost every single context IE The Last Jedi that's a bullshit explanation. But here's what I think. April grew and evolved as a character. She starts as a listless 20 something who has no purpose. She's a decent artist but lacks the spark of her peers. April ran away from an abusive household to escape a resentful, drunkard and physically violent father who almost crippled her for life. and an emotionally distant but remorseful mother. She's had a shitty life which is hinted at through dialogue and then revealed at the very end of the game with the flashbacks. Like EVERYBODY her age she is starts the game going "Is this it? Is this my life?" Then everything starts to change. A magic mexican tells her that she is special. She has magic powers, can travel to another world. A much less depressing one full of whimsy and interesting characters. She defeats several magical adversaries, learns to be less complacent and whiny. She has fun. Those little mole people see her as a hero. April begins to take less interest in her life in Stark. Later on she hears about the balance breaking down due to the absence of the Guardian. So April begins to believe she is the next one. This assumption isn't helped when she finds out she's also the daughter of a giant glowing dragon. Of course she's great. Of course she has a destiny. This long journey meant something. All the abuse, seeing her friends get arrested and shot to death, conquering adversity and mentally maturing. It all matters right?

April's key flaw is her arrogance and unwarranted self importance she develops through the game. She accidentally sinks a ship due to a mistake, she nearly gets her friends killed, and she assumes her destiny is greater than it is. And that you get rewarded if you suffer enough. In real life everyone goes through this bit where you realise how tiny your place in the universe is. Growing up is a bitch. You get to about 25- 30 and start realising "yes. this is it. I'm not the hero of the story. I'm just some bloke." But that's okay. It doesn't mean you don't matter. It doesn't mean April doesn't matter or that the Longest Journey she went on doesn't matter. She grew and evolved as a person. She's no longer listless and in a good sequel she'd find a way to return to Stark to right what she made wrong. The ending is a realisation that despite not being the centre of the universe April did indeed matter. Just not in the way she hoped. It's not a traditional ending. But it's ending where the characters have started at one point. Grew, evolved and changed. And has gone through an emotional and physical journey. Which is more than you can say for pretty much the majority of gaming characters to be honest.

Also, a lightbulb went off in my head and at some point I want to write down what I'd do for a sequel to The Longest Journey ignoring Dreamfall. Stay tuned.
 

Verylittlefishes

Sacro Bosco
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
4,731
Location
Oneoropolis
She's no longer listless and in a good sequel she'd find a way to return to Stark to right what she made wrong. The ending is a realisation that despite not being the centre of the universe April did indeed matter. Just not in the way she hoped.

Disagree, this is pretty realistic. When you realized that you are not really special you are not necessarily embrace it and go on living your simple life. You are coping as fuck. It takes time even in better case. In Dreamfall we see that April is clinging out to her messianic dream, now slighty more adjusted, as a leader of the Marcuria resistance (which SPOILER TO THE 2006 GAME leads to her martyr death in the end of Dreamfall).

at some point I want to write down what I'd do for a sequel to The Longest Journey ignoring Dreamfall. Stay tuned.

Please do!
 

WallaceChambers

Learned
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Messages
311
The balance of actual game and literally just ass is perhaps the most important to maintain. Thankfully, on this Ragnar has never wavered.
 

Maximilian

Guest
Dreamfall Chapters feels so ponderous on a controller, very iffy coding there. Also, on my controller pushing the stick doesn't centre the camera as in, well, any game out there - instead it zooms the camera in...
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom