Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[Cyanide]

One of the main reasons this game is so hardcore

 

[ebPD8PePfC]

Just finished the game by stomping Cyclanos. Easiest game I ever played.
Anyhow:

1. What does the "speed" stat relate to? The one you can change through spells. I can't google it because the word speed is too common.

2. Can you stack the evade you get through the Miracle spell?

3. Does Rapidos (lower enemy magic resistance) also lowers resistance to debuffs (sleep, poison, etc')?

4. Does spells like Rapidos, that supposedly impact all enemies, affect hidden enemies? Do they work on the third row when you're still fighting rows one and two?

I was wondering, what do you guys think about adding a visible turn order to the game? In such an aggressive game where every turn counts having a visible turn order could make the game far more strategic as you could plan you moves ahead, instead of hoping you're lucky enough to heal or damage on time. This way losses would feel more deserved, and the game would feel more fair. There's also enough RNG elements (beheads, hidden enemy actions) that it wouldn't turn the fights into a puzzle.

 

[Haplo]

Good job. You've beaten the tutorial. Now the real game awaits

As for your questions:
1. Turn order, AFAIR
2. Don't know. Wasn't that some crazy Evade number anyway?
3. I don't think it does that.
4. I don't think they do. Hiding is really strong.

Visible turn order would be a neat addition to the GUI. Note in Original you can set party turn order at least.

 

[Nutmeg]

Not trolling and sorry if this has been asked before, but how does Elminage (say, Gothic) contrast with Wizardy 8?

I've played the first 3 Wizardries, Etrian Oddysey 3, the Dark Spire and Shining in the Darkness. Didn't really love any of them.

I'm big on combat though and my favorite blobber is Final Fantasy 5.

Can't think of any other adventuring party blob combat games I'd really rate off the top of my head.

I usually prefer more tactical and less repetitive stuff like Goldbox, Knights of the Challice, Baldur's Gate 2. Huge on SRPGs too.

Knowing that, which one am I more likely to enjoy, Wizardry 8 or Elminage?

 

[turkishronin]

Not trolling and sorry if this has been asked before, but how does Elminage (say, Gothic) contrast with Wizardy 8?

I've played the first 3 Wizardries, Etrian Oddysey 3, the Dark Spire and Shining in the Darkness. Didn't really love any of them.

I'm big on combat though and my favorite blobber is Final Fantasy 5.

Can't think of any other adventuring party blob combat games I'd really rate off the top of my head.

I usually prefer more tactical and less repetitive stuff like Goldbox, Knights of the Challice, Baldur's Gate 2. Huge on SRPGs too.

Knowing that, which one am I more likely to enjoy, Wizardry 8 or Elminage?

They are almost different games.
Elminage Gothic is following the model of Wizardry 1-5. (more exploration-focused than story, no resting in the dungeon, no level-scaled monsters, etc.)
The big problem I had with Wizardry 8 is the length of the combat, you spend a lot of time on simple encounters and it gets worse with level-scaling while in Elminage's encounters either you kill the monsters quickly or they wipe your entire party out in a few turns.

 

[Haplo]

Different beasts, really.
Wiz 8 has an overworld map that you explore and a main quest.
Also free movement.

Gothic barely has something you could call quests. More like a (mostly entirely optional) task list.
Focus is on beating/solving mazes (which are really confusing and difficult to navigate sometimes) and combat - with great enemy variety (and each enemy type defined by a zillion of parameters - among them varied strenghts & weaknesses - and abilities). Supported by a nice class/race (including option to create unbalanced monster adventurers from summoner captured enemies!) system and good itemization. The rest is just... bare-bones packaging.
Blobber movement, of course.

To each their own. Personally I prefer Gothic.

 

[turkishronin]

How does this "Bone Slippers" item work? It says it returns the party to the temple when wiped out. I have it the inventory but my party doesn't return to the temple when annihilated :/

 

[ebPD8PePfC]

That's how it works. It doesn't apply if you teleport yourself into a wall, but AFAIK that's the only exception.

 

[ebPD8PePfC]

Well, here's an exception I recently found the hard way - apparently the enemy can also teleport your party into walls, instantly annihilating them.

Me and my blob are about to enter Ibag tower. Let's hope my samurai gets Ex skills before the end. Poor guy is level 34.

 

[Dorateen]

Me and my blob are about to enter Ibag tower.

Poor guy is level 34.

"Farewell and Adieu you fair Spanish ladies..."

 

[turkishronin]

Is it a good idea to class change a Fighter(lvl16) to Samurai?

 

[Haplo]

Samurais are cool. Fighters are boring.

A mage or another caster would be a better candidate, I think.
Or a monster, like Nue Paralysis/Confusion/Sleep conditions on counterattack rock. ...but that's a bit later then level 16.

 

[aweigh]

Just finished the game by stomping Cyclanos.

That's just the prologue. You haven't actually started playing the game yet.

 

[aweigh]

Is it a good idea to class change a Fighter(lvl16) to Samurai?

Depends. The game's best melee weapon, the Golden Axe, can only be used by a pure Fighter who has never class-changed; besides that Fighters also have the highest HP growth which is something to consider for Ibag's Tower.

But generally speaking Fighter class tends to be replaced by the Elite martial classes of Lord, Samurai, Ninja and Valkyrie; however their high HP growth is good and so is their damage output and equipment selection so it's not like they're bad (far from it).

Last time I tackled Ibag's Tower I used a Fighter instead of a Lord and I loved the huge HP amount on him because it meant he was usually last man standing after some of the crazier enemies in Ibag's would freak out on my party, plus it felt good doing ridiculous damage with the Golden Axe (I'd never before managed to snag one).

 

[aweigh]

Me and my blob are about to enter Ibag tower. Let's hope my samurai gets Ex skills before the end. Poor guy is level 34.

Good luck my friend!! Let us know how your first meetings with the n00b crusher of Ibag's Tower go, Mr. Skillving. Hehe.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Is it a good idea to class change a Fighter(lvl16) to Samurai?

Depends. The game's best melee weapon, the Golden Axe, can only be used by a pure Fighter who has never class-changed; besides that Fighters also have the highest HP growth which is something to consider for Ibag's Tower.

But generally speaking Fighter class tends to be replaced by the Elite martial classes of Lord, Samurai, Ninja and Valkyrie; however their high HP growth is good and so is their damage output and equipment selection so it's not like they're bad (far from it).

Last time I tackled Ibag's Tower I used a Fighter instead of a Lord and I loved the huge HP amount on him because it meant he was usually last man standing after some of the crazier enemies in Ibag's would freak out on my party, plus it felt good doing ridiculous damage with the Golden Axe (I'd never before managed to snag one).

go with the dragonkin fighter then. Race also heavily affects Hp growth. Can the golden axe be used by a pure dragonkin fighter?

 

[aweigh]

only requirement for the golden Axe is an "innocent" Fighter who has never class changed.

It's a two-handed axe weapon which means it can reach a maximum of 13 attacks-per-swing under Orath, while 1-handed weapons have a cap of 10 attacks-per-swing.

EDIT: L-range weapons are all capped to 10 attacks-per-swing, regardless of them being 2-handed. For balance reasons, obviously.

Each consecutive point of an Attribute adds an exponential increase to the output or modifier (such as raw damage for STR), so choose the race accordingly if that's what you want. Increasing attribute points skew non-linearly which means that 17 points in STR will give a higher boost from 16 points than 16 gave from 15; it's not a flat increase but rather exponential.

This means that an 18 INT alchemist is MUCH better than a 17 INT alchemist for success probability of landing spells like Rarood and stuff, it's not a flat increase. Each additional point builds upon the previous one; and a 19 INT alchemist will have even higher modifiers.

Anyway the reason I mention this is because there is no "best race", there is what you want to accomplish and the attribute ranges for each race. Personally I think Fighter should maximize HP growth so that means going with a race with good VITality, but that doesn't mean you should neglect the STR either. It also doesn't mean it's the "Correct" choice as some players might find they prefer bigger damage output from their Fighter because it can end the fight faster and kill the enemy before they act.

 

[turkishronin]

Depends. The game's best melee weapon, the Golden Axe, can only be used by a pure Fighter who has never class-changed; besides that Fighters also have the highest HP growth which is something to consider for Ibag's Tower.

I already have a pure fighter in the party. I want to know what advantages the "elite" Samurai class holds over Fighters. I'm not sure about the equipment since I have yet to find a good katana this far in the game.

 

[Haplo]

Mage spells. And perhaps more importantly, Swallow Return counterattack Mastery skill at "epic" levels. Block an enemy attack and retaliate. Pretty awesome, but the activation chances are not that high initially. Its a late-game ability.

Plus katanas tend to have Behead chances, which is also something a Fighter usually doesn't get. Not particularly statistically relevant , though.

Think it's possible to drop a very nice Samurai blade at the Vulcano.

 

[aweigh]

What advantage Samurai has over Fighter? Many.

Can cast arcane magic spells, has access to a life-saving Parry and Riposte set of abilities, can use unique Samurai equipment, etc. If I remember correctly I believe their HP growth is also better than the Valkyries and the Ninja.

 

[ebPD8PePfC]

Good luck my friend!! Let us know how your first meetings with the n00b crusher of Ibag's Tower go, Mr. Skillving. Hehe.

Already crushed by my superior RNG. These days my blob mob is exploring level 6 of Ibag. Almost every fight someones dies, and I don't have money to identify items because I spend it all to recover from ash. I found an item that costs 500k to identify, but I can barely raise 50. I'm also getting absolutely murdered by a stupid archer which seems to one shot 3 characters in one turn. I can't even kill one, so I can't check the encyclopedia for its vulnerabilities. I long for the days of Skillving. This shit is absurd.

Illustration:

I also haven't managed to capture anything with my Summoner. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong, since some of the monsters I try to contract only have 90% resistance, so at some point I should have got one. Right now the summoner is somewhat of a dead weight, but having access to cleric spells make him useful anyway.

 

[Haplo]

Floor 6? Must have met Polette archers then. A very neat enemy indeed. Strong resistances too
You can always check the Wikia for those.
Can try to Sleep or Confuse them, but must be quite lucky, as they have 75% resist (and chances scale depending on your and enemy level)

Wait till you meet mobs of their big sisters, Stargazers, later on though Actually weaker Resistances but the rest... Just wait :D


Also regarding Summoners, I think you're approaching it wrong. First of all, enemies with 90% Resist are difficult AF to capture. Try some 80% maybe (like Nue from the vulcano if you like Samurai monster adventurers... or Tempest Efreet from Hastrana Air Caves if you like Brawler monster adventurers... or maybe the Minotaur from the first post-game dungeon.. think he had some crazy HP regen values).
The listed resistance % is for a single roll. Enemies get a minimum of 2 consecutive rolls, often 3 or even 4 (depending on Summoner's level vs their level). In principle for enemies with 80% or more resistance you preferably want your summoner to be higher level then the monster he tries to capture (was it 7 levels above? or maybe 5? not sure anymore - when they get only 2 rolls). 50% and below ones are fair game regardless of level, though.

It's possible to capture high level monsters with high resists, but it usually involves Brawler combo sheningans (successful full combo lowers resist by 20 - for the next action ONLY), setting up party order and hours or days of reloading and re-trying.
Gaia, one of last Floor Bosses from base game is nice target practice if you want to try that - actually doable even without a Brawler (you can reliably CC him and you can actually outlevel him in early post-game). He basically carried my party trough half of the Tower. Tower enemies you'd potentially want to capture are usually really difficult to keep under hard CC lockdown.

 

[aweigh]

If i remember correctly Skillving is vulnerable to confusion, and pollette/stargazers are vulnerable to petrify spell.

Of course by "vulnerable" i mean they only have like 30-40 percent resistance to that

EDIT: also i would honestly replace that summoner with a bishop, very useful for being able to identify on the spot, but this is just a personal preference.

 

[turkishronin]

Man the way this game's AI handles spells is really disappointing. The worst offender is the doppelgänger fight where my party has spells that can instantly kill an entire row but the enemy party just uses a Venom spell.

 

[ebPD8PePfC]

NO

So, what are my options?
There's the fountain in Ishmag that changes race to Devilish, but when I use it I run into a bug crashes the game (even in fullscreen mode). The screen turns black and stays that way, though I can still use the mouse.
Jane is also a Valkyrie so I'm not sure if changing her race to devilish won't also change alignment to evil.
Is there another way to change race?

The listed resistance % is for a single roll. Enemies get a minimum of 2 consecutive rolls, often 3 or even 4

That explains it. I thought there was only one roll, in which case 90% resistance isn't that high. Guess I'll try to capture easier targets until I level up a bit.