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Europa Universalis IV

fantadomat

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I hope they give some of those cool Pirate features to the Knights of Malta. They were pretty much the Christian counter-part to the Berber pirates, in many ways, and I would love to be able to pirate filthy Turk and Arab shipping on the waves.
Well they do have that unique mechanic of raiding. It is fun to play them as a strong Mediterranean sea nation. I do love to edit the files and give it to the Jerusalem kingdom and go full orthodox :lol:.
 
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I hope they give some of those cool Pirate features to the Knights of Malta. They were pretty much the Christian counter-part to the Berber pirates, in many ways, and I would love to be able to pirate filthy Turk and Arab shipping on the waves.
for all the five minutes you'll last before being removed by kebab?
 

thesheeep

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I hope they give some of those cool Pirate features to the Knights of Malta. They were pretty much the Christian counter-part to the Berber pirates, in many ways, and I would love to be able to pirate filthy Turk and Arab shipping on the waves.
for all the five minutes you'll last before being removed by kebab?
Not necessarily.
You do require a bit of luck, but it is definitely possible to conquer the other islands and establish enough of a naval presence to be able to keep eastern nations at bay.
It is somewhat similar to playing Ireland, except maybe a bit easier as you do not have an aggressive land neighbor.

And from then on, it is a matter of waiting for good opportunities to take some provinces.
 
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i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
 

fantadomat

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Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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Bulgaria
i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
Fast wars and expansion. The most annoying thing is when you get -20 for very hard :roll:. Also a lot of game experience helps a lot.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Bulgaria
I hope they give some of those cool Pirate features to the Knights of Malta. They were pretty much the Christian counter-part to the Berber pirates, in many ways, and I would love to be able to pirate filthy Turk and Arab shipping on the waves.
for all the five minutes you'll last before being removed by kebab?
Not necessarily.
You do require a bit of luck, but it is definitely possible to conquer the other islands and establish enough of a naval presence to be able to keep eastern nations at bay.
It is somewhat similar to playing Ireland, except maybe a bit easier as you do not have an aggressive land neighbor.

And from then on, it is a matter of waiting for good opportunities to take some provinces.
The knights is pretty easy game,kebab rarely attacks them. You can beat the shit out of genoa/venecia and get a few kebab countries around big green kebab. Also raiding is pretty good. There is a lot of places to grow. Galley spam is pretty good,it is really fun tactical navy game at the start of the game.
 
Last edited:

Zed Duke of Banville

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No mate, EU4 is a very serious competitive MP experience nowadays. Everything has to be balanced for their office MP games.

That neatly marks the time when I stopped playing Paradox games. There were other reasons of course (DLC chief among them). But the incessant babbling about balance in a game that no one in their right mind plays in multiplayer broke the camel's back.
A foolish insistence on "balance" goes all the way back to Johan participating in EU II/III multiplayer games with Peter Ebbesen and then reprogramming the game to remove any "exploit" used by the latter to win. Of course, it wasn't really about "balance" or "exploits", just making their multiplayer games more competitive by removing single-player options.
 

Agame

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i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
Fast wars and expansion. The most annoying thing is when you get -20 for very hard :roll:. Also a lot of game experience helps a lot.

That and from what I have seen tons of restarting and save scumming. For example playing Byz the strategy is just restart over and over till you get the right alliances and rivalry match ups. Certainly not my style of playing but some people seem to enjoy this kind of thing.
 

Makabb

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i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
Fast wars and expansion. The most annoying thing is when you get -20 for very hard :roll:. Also a lot of game experience helps a lot.

That and from what I have seen tons of restarting and save scumming. For example playing Byz the strategy is just restart over and over till you get the right alliances and rivalry match ups. Certainly not my style of playing but some people seem to enjoy this kind of thing.

eu4 = waiting simulator

eu 4 is so much worse compared to eu3, and every new dlc and next version is even worse
 

thesheeep

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i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
Fast wars and expansion. The most annoying thing is when you get -20 for very hard :roll:. Also a lot of game experience helps a lot.

That and from what I have seen tons of restarting and save scumming. For example playing Byz the strategy is just restart over and over till you get the right alliances and rivalry match ups. Certainly not my style of playing but some people seem to enjoy this kind of thing.

eu4 = waiting simulator

eu 4 is so much worse compared to eu3, and every new dlc and next version is even worse
The trade system alone makes EU4 much better.
That constant re-sending of merchants in EU3 if you weren't 100% trade-aligned was just entirely retarded.
 

Makabb

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Messages
11,753
i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
Fast wars and expansion. The most annoying thing is when you get -20 for very hard :roll:. Also a lot of game experience helps a lot.

That and from what I have seen tons of restarting and save scumming. For example playing Byz the strategy is just restart over and over till you get the right alliances and rivalry match ups. Certainly not my style of playing but some people seem to enjoy this kind of thing.

eu4 = waiting simulator

eu 4 is so much worse compared to eu3, and every new dlc and next version is even worse
The trade system alone makes EU4 much better.
That constant re-sending of merchants in EU3 if you weren't 100% trade-aligned was just entirely retarded.

lol wat, you just auto-send merchants in eu3 and then forget about them.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
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Bulgaria
i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
Fast wars and expansion. The most annoying thing is when you get -20 for very hard :roll:. Also a lot of game experience helps a lot.

That and from what I have seen tons of restarting and save scumming. For example playing Byz the strategy is just restart over and over till you get the right alliances and rivalry match ups. Certainly not my style of playing but some people seem to enjoy this kind of thing.
Byz is the most fun play now,with the new mission system is a great fun and feels really satisfying. Before that i never really bothered much with the alliances,i always tried to have big fleet and tried to beat the shit of Venecia and eat the Mediterranean islands. It was great fun,as a whole that part of the world is the most fun because it have a lot of conflict early on,and you have no way to avoid it. Another way is to eat the Western Balkans.
 
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Messages
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That and from what I have seen tons of restarting and save scumming. For example playing Byz the strategy is just restart over and over till you get the right alliances and rivalry match ups. Certainly not my style of playing but some people seem to enjoy this kind of thing.

I think you can quickly war your way next to the HRE and join them through some shenanigans. Then

the_emperor_protects_by_stormcrow_18.jpg


(Unless he's busy, or in debt, or has the wrong ruler trait. Then fuck you)

The trade system alone makes EU4 much better.
That constant re-sending of merchants in EU3 if you weren't 100% trade-aligned was just entirely retarded.

lol wat, you just auto-send merchants in eu3 and then forget about them.

Yeah, the trade system in EU4 is awful. It all flows one way, the only way to get trade power is blobbing, and you have to do autistic number crunching to figure out the best path + check constantly to see if conditions change. In EU3 you can trade anywhere in range, you know the best places to trade in by their value (assuming you can compete), and you can conquer the CoTs in order to get competitive bonuses there. It's even dynamic and shit, which is mostly pointless but very cool to see when all of western Europe funnels their trade through your home province.
 

Sranchammer

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i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
Fast wars and expansion. The most annoying thing is when you get -20 for very hard :roll:. Also a lot of game experience helps a lot.

That and from what I have seen tons of restarting and save scumming. For example playing Byz the strategy is just restart over and over till you get the right alliances and rivalry match ups. Certainly not my style of playing but some people seem to enjoy this kind of thing.
Byz is the most fun play now,with the new mission system is a great fun and feels really satisfying. Before that i never really bothered much with the alliances,i always tried to have big fleet and tried to beat the shit of Venecia and eat the Mediterranean islands. It was great fun,as a whole that part of the world is the most fun because it have a lot of conflict early on,and you have no way to avoid it. Another way is to eat the Western Balkans.

Is Byz trade empire possible or is the only way just to reconquer old lands?
 

thesheeep

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The trade system alone makes EU4 much better.
That constant re-sending of merchants in EU3 if you weren't 100% trade-aligned was just entirely retarded.

lol wat, you just auto-send merchants in eu3 and then forget about them.

Yeah, the trade system in EU4 is awful. It all flows one way, the only way to get trade power is blobbing, and you have to do autistic number crunching to figure out the best path + check constantly to see if conditions change. In EU3 you can trade anywhere in range, you know the best places to trade in by their value (assuming you can compete), and you can conquer the CoTs in order to get competitive bonuses there. It's even dynamic and shit, which is mostly pointless but very cool to see when all of western Europe funnels their trade through your home province.
That's mostly just misinformation.
It does not only flow one way, but you can often choose the direction to steer it (so that more trade would flow toward mediterranean instead of North Sea, for example). Or grab a province and/or send a trade fleet somewhere to prevent all the money to ever reach an end node, instead flowing to your pockets. What you cannot do is completely reverse the flow, and that is a pity, true.
Blobbing is absolutely not the only way to get trade power, no idea where you got that idea from. Of course a tiny one-province nation cannot rule over any trade, but that is just realistic.
There is also no real number crunching involved, you just have to check which nodes have the highest value (among those that you can reach) and focus your involvement there. It doesn't even have to be an end node, if you steer correctly.
You have to check if conditions change, but how is that a bad thing? You can't just send merchants and forget about it, you have to check regularly. And trade embargoes actually do something (well, at least with MEIOU / VeF mod, I had to switch my focused trade areas numerous times due to being embargoed somewhere).
And EU4 has CoT provinces and other such modifiers as well, giving significant boosts.
 
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It does not only flow one way, but you can often choose the direction to steer it (so that more trade would flow toward mediterranean instead of North Sea, for example). Or grab a province and/or send a trade fleet somewhere to prevent all the money to ever reach an end node, instead flowing to your pockets. What you cannot do is completely reverse the flow, and that is a pity, true.
Blobbing is absolutely not the only way to get trade power, no idea where you got that idea from. Of course a tiny one-province nation cannot rule over any trade, but that is just realistic.
There is also no real number crunching involved, you just have to check which nodes have the highest value (among those that you can reach) and focus your involvement there. It doesn't even have to be an end node, if you steer correctly.
You have to check if conditions change, but how is that a bad thing? You can't just send merchants and forget about it, you have to check regularly. And trade embargoes actually do something (well, at least with MEIOU / VeF mod, I had to switch my focused trade areas numerous times due to being embargoed somewhere).
And EU4 has CoT provinces and other such modifiers as well, giving significant boosts.

It flows east to west. Europeans get magic money from nowhere because dumb reasons. There's no way to profit from trade downstream.

Yeah, holding land is the only way to get trade power. I guess you can consider building light ships, but in practice they cost maintenance, force limit, and are an awful investment compared to anything else. If you don't have 50% of the trade power in a node you might as well ignore it because it's a waste of time in EU4.

You have to check every available node to figure out whether it's better to send a merchant to collect, a merchant to steer, or no merchant. You have to check this in probably a dozen nodes by mid game, the combinatorics is ridiculous. You have to check constantly because an AI might decide to stop steering your way which means you need to put a merchant there to get it your way.

Needing to check on something constantly is awful. In computing terms EU4 trade is a system that requires polling, a good system is interrupt based. Meaning, if something goes wrong the player should be notified to fix it. In EU3 if things go wrong your merchants flatline at zero because they all get competed out, letting you know you are probably trying to trade somewhere you can't compete in. In EU4 you just silently lose thousands of ducats until you enter one of the 50 map modes to math out what changed since you last checked. It's a bad system for any high level strategic game.

EU4's CoT and other modifiers are basically irrelevant unless you want to border gore everywhere or do something ridiculous looking like taking only coastlines. You might take them slightly earlier than nearby provinces but in the end you still annex whole regions because that's how the game is designed, you need to monopolize nodes (and the state limit now punishes taking lots of unrelated territory with -75% tax and production). In EU3 all you needed was trade range, two or three trade ports across the globe to get a piece of trade anywhere you could compete. Which made sense, IRL trade nations didn't need to take the centers of trade in every country across the planet to make money, they just needed access to the markets to initiate trade. In EU4 the trade zones in China or India are basically useless until you've conquered a quarter of the provinces, enough to get a new merchant and either send it back home or collect on site.
 

fantadomat

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Bulgaria
i don't know how you people manage to survive with these very small minors who can't access powerful allies like france or austria, all my attempts end within a few years, sometimes just months, with the big baddie eating me in a bite.
Fast wars and expansion. The most annoying thing is when you get -20 for very hard :roll:. Also a lot of game experience helps a lot.

That and from what I have seen tons of restarting and save scumming. For example playing Byz the strategy is just restart over and over till you get the right alliances and rivalry match ups. Certainly not my style of playing but some people seem to enjoy this kind of thing.
Byz is the most fun play now,with the new mission system is a great fun and feels really satisfying. Before that i never really bothered much with the alliances,i always tried to have big fleet and tried to beat the shit of Venecia and eat the Mediterranean islands. It was great fun,as a whole that part of the world is the most fun because it have a lot of conflict early on,and you have no way to avoid it. Another way is to eat the Western Balkans.

Is Byz trade empire possible or is the only way just to reconquer old lands?
Have no idea what do you mean by trade empire. I don't play with trade focus in mind. I like conquering. Still it is possible to play it as you feel like it.


Has anyone here played as Bulgaria? They do have some op ideas and are all rounded well. It have mil,stability,trade and conquest ideas.
 

Preben

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Has anyone here played as Bulgaria? They do have some op ideas and are all rounded well. It have mil,stability,trade and conquest ideas.

Never played as Bulgaria, but I often release them as my proxy for controlling the Balkans after trashing the Ottomans. I usually start small, so I am always too late to save Byzantium.
 

thesheeep

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There's no way to profit from trade downstream.
That is simply not true.
If you can gather enough trade power via ships or provinces, you can stop the flow in any node and collect from there. Of course not every node works for this, but that's just realistic.

Yeah, holding land is the only way to get trade power. I guess you can consider building light ships, but in practice they cost maintenance, force limit, and are an awful investment compared to anything else. If you don't have 50% of the trade power in a node you might as well ignore it because it's a waste of time in EU4.
Again, simply not true.
Light ships more than pay for themselves if you send them to a worthwhile node (especially a hundred years in, once their trade power increases). If they cost you more maintenance than they gain you, you are simply using them wrong.
And force limit? Who cares? What else are you going to use it for? You need a certain number of transports and heavy ships (and in very rare circumstances, galleys, but I never found them worthwhile outside of Italy). More of those just don't serve any purpose, so you build light ships and earn dough with them. Very much including in trade nodes you have no provinces in.

You have to check every available node to figure out whether it's better to send a merchant to collect, a merchant to steer, or no merchant. You have to check this in probably a dozen nodes by mid game, the combinatorics is ridiculous. You have to check constantly because an AI might decide to stop steering your way which means you need to put a merchant there to get it your way.

Needing to check on something constantly is awful. In computing terms EU4 trade is a system that requires polling, a good system is interrupt based. Meaning, if something goes wrong the player should be notified to fix it. In EU3 if things go wrong your merchants flatline at zero because they all get competed out, letting you know you are probably trying to trade somewhere you can't compete in. In EU4 you just silently lose thousands of ducats until you enter one of the 50 map modes to math out what changed since you last checked. It's a bad system for any high level strategic game.
I agree the feedback could be much better. But I never needed to do more than notice there is a sharp drop at one of my collecting merchants, and then look downstream for causes until I find them. That happens every now and then, but simply not "constantly".
If you fail to realize for years that you lost lots of money, you should be blaming yourself mostly, not the game.


EU4's CoT and other modifiers are basically irrelevant unless you want to border gore everywhere or do something ridiculous looking like taking only coastlines. You might take them slightly earlier than nearby provinces but in the end you still annex whole regions because that's how the game is designed, you need to monopolize nodes (and the state limit now punishes taking lots of unrelated territory with -75% tax and production). In EU3 all you needed was trade range, two or three trade ports across the globe to get a piece of trade anywhere you could compete. Which made sense, IRL trade nations didn't need to take the centers of trade in every country across the planet to make money, they just needed access to the markets to initiate trade. In EU4 the trade zones in China or India are basically useless until you've conquered a quarter of the provinces, enough to get a new merchant and either send it back home or collect on site.
Your entire argument revolves around the notion that you couldn't gain a profit in a trade node unless you have a big chunk of provinces.
I have spent hundreds of hours in the game - with either VeF or MEIOU mod, but I doubt vanilla is entirely different in this regard - and that assumption is simply wrong. Of course having provinces helps, but you can gain a nice profit even without any as long as you have at least one port nearby for your light ships to go to.
You either need lots of provinces at a node or be able to send lots of ships there, both is of course optimal, but either is enough for a good profit.
I don't exactly remember the EU3 system, but if you could gain a profit there without either having lots of provinces or lots of trade ships, it didn't make any sense at all - where did the profit come from, if not from your ships or local presence? Magic?
 

Makabb

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EU 3 Divine wind 5.2 with Death and Taxes 10.5 has to be the finest iteration of Europa Universalis idea, the sliders are meaningfull and the game is simply fun to play (unlike eu4 where to do anything you have to wait and wait).The map is great, there's plenty of events and you can restore the roman empire !

Infamy in EU3 is tons better because the game allows you to conquer, but if you conquer too much everyone will gang up on you, while EU4 just cucks you into not conquering which is the opposite idea of the series that was since EU 1 - 3.

There are good things about EU 4 - everything about the army and combat is better in EU4 (minus the forts), but that is the only improvement. I'd rather have a good game overall with ping ponging army of EU3, than good army mechanics and boring rest of the game.

EU3 is more RNG, while EU4 is too much railroaded by blocking player in what he can do by all the artificial limiters (favours, development etc)
 
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thesheeep

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Makabb You are saying EU3 is a lot more like Risk and a lot less like some kind of simulation. I agree.
But I think that certain simulation aspect of EU4 and the restraints that places on what you can do at any time actually make it a better and more believable game. The mods actually increase that aspect, you really have to plan ahead, more than a hundred years, partly.

Take overextension. It makes sense that a country cannot just grow wildly by conquering without negative consequence to internal stability. That's one of the reasons that every empire ever attempting that ultimately failed.
The other reason is of course others forming a coalition against you. That worked better in EU3, indeed. I don't think I ever saw that happening in EU4... the negative relation impact of conquering in EU4 is pretty much negligible.
 

Makabb

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Makabb You are saying EU3 is a lot more like Risk and a lot less like some kind of simulation. I agree.
But I think that certain simulation aspect of EU4 and the restraints that places on what you can do at any time actually make it a better and more believable game. The mods actually increase that aspect, you really have to plan ahead, more than a hundred years, partly.

Take overextension. It makes sense that a country cannot just grow wildly by conquering without negative consequence to internal stability. That's one of the reasons that every empire ever attempting that ultimately failed.
The other reason is of course others forming a coalition against you. That worked better in EU3, indeed. I don't think I ever saw that happening in EU4... the negative relation impact of conquering in EU4 is pretty much negligible.


I just want a fun game to play.

When I play EU3 it's fun, when I play EU4 it's not.
 

thesheeep

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I just want a fun game to play.

When I play EU3 it's fun, when I play EU4 it's not.
I can't blame you, but that just means you prefer a more Risk-style gameplay with little simulation or realism getting in the way.
That doesn't mean that either is better or worse, though.

Some aspects of each game are objectively better than they are in the other one, but other things are just different design goals.
 

LizardWizard

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Neither Eu3 or Eu4 are fun without mods

Even then, modded Eu2 is still their peak
 

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