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Europa Universalis IV

SymbolicFrank

Magister
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Messages
1,668
Ok. How about this one:

If you lived in a Paradox game, half the things you did would result in some higher being appearing, proclaiming that it would change their future, or that you should have taken it at at a different time, and as such you have to be seriously penalized!
 

Space Satan

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Almost all army-related stuff in CKII was about establishing a retinue. Levy-based armies were ANNOYING AS HELL. Just a reminder that until about 2-3 years of patching there were not relly points and duke andd king-level vassals were not raising their forces as one army, instead risising a hundred 12 men-strong units, in which AI later MAYBE organized a full army.
Raising a levy-based army in EUIV would be a nightmare even with rally points. How could you reshape armies to represent garrison-cities? Total mobilizations of nomad raiders? Gradual shift toward standing armies?
Current system may be abstract but at least it is decent.
 

fantadomat

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Almost all army-related stuff in CKII was about establishing a retinue. Levy-based armies were ANNOYING AS HELL.
Ahh just find a nice duchy with a lot of free space and spam castles. You could end up with very big levy. Shame that building was so annoying and stupid.
 

AwesomeButton

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Almost all army-related stuff in CKII was about establishing a retinue. Levy-based armies were ANNOYING AS HELL. Just a reminder that until about 2-3 years of patching there were not relly points and duke andd king-level vassals were not raising their forces as one army, instead risising a hundred 12 men-strong units, in which AI later MAYBE organized a full army.
Raising a levy-based army in EUIV would be a nightmare even with rally points. How could you reshape armies to represent garrison-cities? Total mobilizations of nomad raiders? Gradual shift toward standing armies?
Current system may be abstract but at least it is decent.
The more I thought about it, the more I reaffirmed my conviction that the pseudo-realtime gameplay is at the root of the problems. Turn based with month- or two weeks-long turns, like in AGEOD 's games, would have permitted both a better AI and more realism.
 

Space Satan

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Almost all army-related stuff in CKII was about establishing a retinue. Levy-based armies were ANNOYING AS HELL.
Ahh just find a nice duchy with a lot of free space and spam castles. You could end up with very big levy. Shame that building was so annoying and stupid.
Which is okay until mid-game. Because then armies and Crusades would become so big that not even 6 fully upgraded castles will save you from combined forces. I am not talking about mongols and their 40k stacks.
 

fantadomat

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Almost all army-related stuff in CKII was about establishing a retinue. Levy-based armies were ANNOYING AS HELL.
Ahh just find a nice duchy with a lot of free space and spam castles. You could end up with very big levy. Shame that building was so annoying and stupid.
Which is okay until mid-game. Because then armies and Crusades would become so big that not even 6 fully upgraded castles will save you from combined forces. I am not talking about mongols and their 40k stacks.
I was talking about more like 20ish castle and also retinue. Also you were talking about being annoying. That way when you rise it you will have 20,000 in one place maybe even more. Also by mid game you could most of the world.
 

Space Satan

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You can have 10k retinue easily, and raising 30k troops is a routine late-mid and late game, with 50k-strong crusades. And mongols will arrive in 40k STACKS. Numbering about 120-160k in total
 

thesheeep

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You can have 10k retinue easily, and raising 30k troops is a routine late-mid and late game, with 50k-strong crusades. And mongols will arrive in 40k STACKS. Numbering about 120-160k in total
Tell me about it. Currently playing as Tibet.
Ming revolution totally failed (just became a clusterfuck of disconnected provinces and the AI is too dumb to handle revolts in those) and now I have to deal with multiple 40k+ Yuan Khaganate stacks who just regularly come knocking.
If Yuan decides to attack at a bad moment, that would be the end of it.
 

Space Satan

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Introducing 1.29: Manchu!

index.php


Think always of your ancestors,
and cultivate virtue.
Always strive to accord with the Mandate,
and seek for yourself many blessings.
Before Yin lost their multitudes,
They were in accord with the High Di.
Look to Yin as you would a mirror,
The great Mandate is not easy to keep.
- The Book of Odes


The 1.29 Manchu update will include not only the long-awaited 64 bit upgrade, but also a hefty chunk of free content for North-East Asia. Over the next few weeks I’ll be laying out what you can expect from the Manchu update; our focus is of course on Manchuria itself, but the update also has a huge impact on Mongolia, China, Japan, Korea, and parts of Central Asia.

Before we get to that, I’ll say a word about how Manchu came to be. Early in the year we set our programmers to work on tech debt (explained here by our own @MatRopert ), while @Groogyand @DDRJake were busy laying out the design for next years’ European update and expansion. With the design for the future at such an early stage it didn’t make sense for Team Content Design (at the time consisting of myself, @Ofaloaf, and Caligula Caesar) to begin working on Europe just yet. And so we decided to use this time to create a free content update. We had originally planned to release Manchu somewhat earlier in the year, but various factors beyond our control prevented this from happening and we’ve finally secured a September release. While Manchu will contain some bug fixes, it won't contain the quality of life features we've been talking about lately - those will come with the Europe update next year. So to reiterate: the time we spent working on Manchu did not take any time away from our work on the European update.

With that out of the way, let’s talk about China!

Many players, including myself, haven’t been happy with the balance of Mandate of Heaven’s Emperor of China mechanics and the way they affect the experience of playing in East Asia. What we typically see in 1.28 is a perpetually stagnant Ming and by extension a stagnant East Asia. Players are averse to taking the Mandate of Heaven even as Qing because it is seen (somewhat justifiably) as more trouble than it’s worth. Players starting as Ming are offered very little challenge in their campaign.

We decided to use the Manchu update as an opportunity to revisit these mechanics. We want the Mandate to be desirable while still presenting a unique challenge and gameplay experience for both Ming and those who would usurp the Mandate. What follows is a list of the changes we’ve made to Mandate of Heaven’s Empire of China system:
  • Neighboring non-tributary nations no longer cause Mandate loss.
    • This prevents Mandate loss from bordering large nations such as Russia.
    • It also means that nations that take the Mandate from Ming no longer experience crippling Mandate loss from non-tributaries.
    • The Empire will still gain Mandate from having tributaries, so it is still rewarding to surround the Empire with Tributary states.
  • For each 5 loans the Empire loses -0.03 Mandate per month. Bankruptcy causes a -0.05 Mandate loss per month.
    • The Emperor is expected to bring prosperity to China, not poverty and ruin.
    • Opponents of the Empire now have the option of target the Chinese economy in all manner of creative ways in order to reduce its Mandate.
  • Passive Meritocracy decay has been increased to -2 per year
    • In 1.28, simply having low skill advisors is enough to maintain maximum Meritocracy at all times, so there is no need to ever worry about low Meritocracy.
    • This makes Meritocracy a more scarce resource that will take more time to accumulate.
  • For each 5 Corruption, the Empire loses 0.05 Mandate per month
    • Speaks for itself. A corrupt Empire is not a healthy Empire.
  • -100% Mercenary Availability at 0 Mandate changed to -200%
    • At 0 Mandate Ming shouldn’t be able to hire mercenaries. With Ming’s huge forcelimit, any positive modifier to Mercenary Availability (e.g. Administrative Ideas) allows them to hire a large mercenary army.
  • Low Mandate now has a scaling Global Manpower penalty, up to -50% at low Mandate
    • Ming has a gigantic Manpower pool. Wearing it down is difficult, especially when they take Quantity ideas (which again they often do). Their sheer numbers can help them overcome opponents that they historically struggled to defeat.
    • Dynasties in periods of economic or political decline struggled to raise large or disciplined armies. This was another indicator that the Dynasty was at risk of losing the Mandate.
  • High Mandate now reduces monthly War Exhaustion, up to -0.03 per month
    • This rewards a strong Empire with the ability to sustain itself in wars for long periods of time. It broadcasts that attacking the Empire at a time of strength may be unwise.
    • When a dynasty is perceived to clearly and firmly possess the Mandate, the people are assured that the hardships of war will pass and the Emperor will be victorious.
  • Two new Ruler Personalities have been added, exclusive to the Emperor of China. Humane gives a bonus to Mandate while Petty reduces it.
    • Based on the Confucian concept of ‘ren’. A morally virtuous Emperor is the center of a harmonious Empire.
  • Not owning and controlling Beijing, Nanjing, and Canton reduces Mandate by -0.05 per month each.
    • This adds new tactical and strategic elements to both playing and fighting the Empire. You can damage the Empire’s Mandate by sieging key cities, and even further by taking them in a peace deal. The Emperor must take care to defend these key provinces.
  • The Unguarded Nomadic Frontier disaster will now account for the development of the subjects of Horde nations
    • It is no longer necessary for a Horde that wishes to challenge the Empire to directly control massive swathes of land. Vassals and Marches can be used to increase your power for this purpose.
  • Low Meritocracy now causes Corruption, up to 0.1 per year at 0 Meritocracy. High Meritocracy reduces corruption to the same degree.
    • A player-led Qing or Ming will likely be expansionist. This reduces the impact of corruption from territories. And can be a means to reduce Mandate loss from high corruption.
    • Meritocracy represents the efficiency of the Confucian bureaucracy. Corrupt bureaucrats (which in Ming was extremely common) did not administer efficiently.
  • The Empire gains 0.05 Mandate per month while using the Unite China CB, and new Emperors gain +0.05 monthly Mandate for 20 years. Countries that seize the Mandate begin with 60 Mandate and 60 Meritocracy.
    • This helps countries that have recently gained the Mandate an early source of Mandate, a common issue when playing as Qing or Yuan.
  • We’ve rebalanced a number of Chinese historical events. I won’t go into the details now but an important focus was adding Mandate effects to many event options.

In addition, we’ve designed two new highly impactful event chains to shake up the Chinese world.

index.php

The Mandate is not easy to keep;
May it not end in your persons.


Though the Ming dynasty was ultimately defeated by the Manchu conquest, its collapse had already begun before the invasion. Disaster and mismanagement within the Ming dynasty were the catalyst for a major peasant rebellion in the 1630’s led by Li Zicheng. Li Zicheng was extremely successful; his forces won many battles against the Ming armies and he captured Beijing in 1644, proclaiming himself Emperor of the Shun Dynasty. Only then did the newly-united Manchus invade, initially under the pretext of defeating Li Zicheng’s rebellion. We’ll talk more about the Manchu invasion next week, for now we’re interested in Ming’s internal crisis.

The Crisis of the Ming Dynasty is a new Disaster that will challenge Ming players and very often lead to the collapse of an AI-controlled Ming. The Disaster can begin any time after the Age of Discovery if Ming has low Mandate or has lost the Mandate entirely. When the Disaster hits they’ll immediately receive penalties to Land Morale, Technology Cost, and Global Unrest, as well as taking a flat hit to their Stability, Mandate, and Corruption. Events will periodically spawn Peasant rebels. This is going to be a very difficult time for Ming. Ming must restore their Mandate by any means necessary or face dire consequences. If rebels manage to occupy 10 provinces in a single Chinese region (North China, South China, and Xinan), an event will fire that immediately spawns breakaway nations. In Xinan the Yunnan Protectorate (represented by the nation of Dali) will demand self-rule, which can be accepted at the cost of Mandate or denied at the cost of a bloody war. In the South, local governors will take matters into their own hands, defying the authority of the Empire and raising their own armies to restore order. Wu and Yue will be spawned on the map, and once again the choice to accept their independence or fight against them will be presented. In North China there will be no such choice. Rebels will seize power in the region and declare that Ming has lost the Mandate of Heaven, proclaiming the Shun Dynasty and immediately declaring war on Ming for the Mandate. The southern revolter states can play a role in the rise of the Qing later in the game, representing the Three Feudatories which we’ll talk about more next week. Ming players must now guard their Mandate jealously lest they fall into ruin and despair.

index.php

In this playthrough Esen Taishi managed to get himself killed in battle, but Kundelung Kirghiz has taken up his mantle.

Another challenge to Ming rule came much earlier in our time frame. By 1444 the Oirats had consolidated their power under the ambitious warlord Esen Taishi (more about the Oirats next week). In 1449 he led an invasion of China, captured the Emperor in battle, and came close to winning the siege of Beijing. These events are known as the Tumu Crisis, and they’re now an event chain in EU4. As the Oirats begin the game refusing to pay tribute to the Ming Emperor, they often find themselves in an early war. When this happens Ming receives an event informing them that the Emperor has decided to lead his armies personally, converting the Yingzong Emperor into a (very inept) general. If the Oirats defeat a Ming army commanded by the Yingzong Emperor in a battle an event will immediately fire granting the Oirats combat and siege bonuses, while Ming receives an event reduces their Mandate and Stability, as well as forcing them into a temporary Regency Council. From here the goal for the Oirats is to capture Beijing before the Emperor dies and before Ming appoints a new Emperor to the throne. Should the Oirats succeed the rewards are great: they’ll immediately occupy every province in the North China region owned and controlled by Ming, resulting in a huge amount of warscore which they can use to secure an advantageous peace deal. The capture of Beijing will also cause huge Mandate loss for Ming, though their beloved Emperor will be returned safely to the throne. By pursuing the goals presented in this event chain an Oirat player can make a powerful opening move in their campaign, potentially paving the way for a restored Yuan dynasty.

We’ve had a long time to observe the impact of our work in this region and we’re very satisfied with the results. In 1.29 Ming survives “intact” to the end of the game in less than 1⁄3 of hands-off tests, with the remainder of cases having a variety of results such as a powerful Qing dynasty, a perpetually shattered China, the rise of a new Chinese dynasty (Shun and Wu are the most common), and opportunistic European conquests that exploit China’s internal troubles. I’ve even seen Mughal China a couple of times. The result here is a much more dynamic and much less predictable political situation in East Asia. In the hands of a player Ming is still by far the most powerful nation in the game, though it faces new challenges to its dominance.

It’s great to finally have the chance to talk about 1.29 Manchu after so many months. I’ll be back with more over the next few weeks building up to its release in September. Our next development diary will hone in on the 3 M’s: Maps, Manchus, and Mongols!


Manchu will be a free update to EU4 with new content and the 64 bit upgrade. The European Update and DLC will be coming in 2020.
 

Ventidius

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
552
Is any of the more recent DLC worth purchasing? I'm thinking of Dharma and Mandate of Heaven, in particular.
 

Beggar

Cipher
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
718
Oh for fucks sake, asia once again. Total war asia, eu4 asia, world cup in asia. Decline at its worst
 

fantadomat

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I have played with most nations by now,except the muslim ones. I really miss the 10 mil tech and how challenging was to play in asia or africa,the new tech system is the worst.
 

AwesomeButton

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I keep thinking it would be cool to play in the far East but when I get in the mood for finally playing it's usually either Spain or France, or just steamroll with Russia for the fun of it.
 

Tigranes

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Messages
10,350
EU is obviously designed for Europe and most fun in Europe, but if you're playing your 8th game as X nation I think it's fun to go outside. Gameplay-wise I try to avoid ubergigantic provinces, and set up for European contact as a turning point later in the game for some fun wars. An Indonesian nation setting out to do a Dutch West Indies before the Dutch come, for example, or dominating the ivory trade as an African OPM.
 

thesecret1

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I tried playing Asia. Found China boring as hell - once you deal with the initial bullshit, you're pretty much immortal. There's no serious rival around to match you. Japan was more fun, but again, once you unify, there's pretty much only China to deal with, and after that nothing.


I have played with most nations by now,except the muslim ones. I really miss the 10 mil tech and how challenging was to play in asia or africa,the new tech system is the worst.
Agreed. I hate that shit so much. It seems to have resulted into most shitholes maintaining tech parity to some degree, despite the malluses
 

Tigranes

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Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
I tried playing Asia. Found China boring as hell - once you deal with the initial bullshit, you're pretty much immortal. There's no serious rival around to match you. Japan was more fun, but again, once you unify, there's pretty much only China to deal with, and after that nothing.


I have played with most nations by now,except the muslim ones. I really miss the 10 mil tech and how challenging was to play in asia or africa,the new tech system is the worst.
Agreed. I hate that shit so much. It seems to have resulted into most shitholes maintaining tech parity to some degree, despite the malluses

You played China and you're complaining about an immortal OP nation uh yeah

EU is a map painter and once you get to a decent size there's nothing that can stop you. The fun is in either larping or managing your strategy in the first 50 years or so as an underdog.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
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Messages
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You played China and you're complaining about an immortal OP nation uh yeah
You realise that the above dev diary deals with China, right? A commentary on playing China is thus entirely appropriate.


EU is a map painter and once you get to a decent size there's nothing that can stop you.
There's nothing that could stop you at any stage of the game, since the AI is braindead. But there's shit that can slow you down, that requires at least some amount of tactic to deal with. In Europe, you've got plenty of potential rivals that can be a pain in the ass even after some blobbing. In Asia, you don't.
 

Tigranes

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Messages
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That's why I tend to play in India or Indonesia regions. I think anybody can take one look at China and realise it's not going to be very fun no matter what you do. I suppose the update can provide some tools for larping, but...
 
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there's actually one: you can't westernize armies anymore, you're stuck with spear chuckers. (several expansions ago) as china who conquered most of asia i tried to go against russia and the only way i could was to build a wall of fortresses, burn land and hope for the ai to waste its huge stacks on attrition alone.
 
Joined
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Messages
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there's actually one: you can't westernize armies anymore, you're stuck with spear chuckers. (several expansions ago) as china who conquered most of asia i tried to go against russia and the only way i could was to build a wall of fortresses, burn land and hope for the ai to waste its huge stacks on attrition alone.

EU4 armies have long since been "balanced" so that tech group is almost irrelevant. The wiki with information about this is down at the moment but IIRC western armies are actually weaker than most other tech groups (even shitters like american or african) for the first half of the game. Even in the late game when western is ahead its only by 1 or 2 pips. Though I'm not sure about Russia, which would be Eastern tech.
 

thesecret1

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After getting rid of tech groups, armies had to be balanced, else it would make no sense from the design standpoint. The logic behind institutions was "any place can now be the world's leading tech centre", so of course, if such a centre happens to be in subsaharan africa, then subsaharan africans ought to have quality units to reflect that.

Seriously, the institutions are so fucking stupid, holy shit. Not only do you need to set conditions that basically restrict new institutions appearing to Europe if you want any sort of semi-historical outcome, but it doesn't work well even then, with shitholes managing to stay technologically relevant throughout the game. Tech groups were perfect and actually made you FEEL it when you went to fight some spear chucking savages and blown them the fuck out with 1:10 troop number.
 

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