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Experience and character skill progression is pointless.

Self-Ejected

theSavant

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@Nekot: Yeah, but in some games the progress is barely noticeable until a certain threshold, and then when you reached that threshold "you are done" for the rest of the game. Wizardry is an example for that. It definitely makes one question the system behind.
 

The Wall

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So you want devs to make using cheats morally legal to your ego?

Because from OP's clarification it's clear he doesn't have problem with widespread current progression focused system, character and party system is in its foundation and inseparable and he is clearly in favour of it, but with time, energy and stamina it takes player to make his characters start to feel fun and strong to play. You find issue not with levels but leveling

Oh, ok. Let me make this thread's title less retadred for you:

How to make leveling and progression in RPGs more fun?

Now real conversation may begin. Discuss:
 

King Crispy

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Character progression shouldn't be a thing that a game or a genre is judged by. Character progression shouldn't even be a thing to be considered on its own as a concept at all because it's always inextricably tied to the game's system and how it relates to advancing within that game alone, even if it's similar or identical to other games in a series.

If you're going to generalize that all D&D games suffer at early levels and equally at later levels, then judge D&D, not the concept of gaining levels or how they're gained.

If you have a problem with gaining levels, period, then simply stop playing RPGs because that's never going away.

This is all an excellent justification for open-world, NON-level-scaled design. As already stated, a major portion of satisfaction from open-world RPGs is in coming back to master that which previously was stomping you into the dirt. Without character progression -- in other words, without a lack of level-scaling -- none of that matters. All the content is equally "challenging" and, thus, essentially meaningless.

sheep said:
OH BOY BUT I LOVE PLAYING ON LOW LEVELS MISS MISS MISS MISS CRIT TAKES WHOLE PARTY WAHAHAA LOOVE IT

I mean if those misses aren't as entertaining to you as all the hundreds of damage and instant-kill clouds of fuck you that end-game levels provide then I'm just not sure what to tell you.

Maybe I'm simply not understanding what sheep is trying to say here.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

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I have the perfect RPG for you.
http://progressquest.com/play/
It plays itself while he plays with himself. Double incline!

-Sheep brought to fold
-Sheep gets item: fun
-Sheep handling skill: +1

first thought: this might be just an RPG, only a shitty RPG
second thought: doesn't take player input: not an RPG

and it doesn't even do everything for me while I'm browsing in another tab.

0/10 on the game parody scale, flawed concept and lazy execution
 

Incendax

Augur
Joined
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Messages
892
We need experience and skill progression because people need to feel like they're accomplishing something as they try to escape from reality.
Definitely. If I wanted to fail constantly and get no reward for tremendous effort, I would just... spend more time in real life.
 

MpuMngwana

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Messages
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I disagree. Progression is a key part of the genre. Said progression might be poorly implemented (going from killing Orcs with a sword to killing Elite Orcs with a Sword +1), but saying that makes progression inherently bad is like saying cars are inherently bad because you bought a Trabant and it got eaten by pigs.

Ok, after careful re-reading of OP for three times, I honestly have no idea what's the argument here

You talk about gassing character progression and at the same time about char/party build. There's not one without the other. With what you build your char/party, what resource (points, exp etc) if you did no progression to earn them? Or you want difficulty mode below story mode where game has lvled up your char/party for you?

Don't know, maybe it's my headache. But I really don't know what's the purpouse of this thread and Pete Hines

I believe what the OP meant is, you pick your party members (say, a Barbarian, a Wizard, a Druid and a Thief), pick spells and feats and whatever, and then that's it, you're stuck with these until the end of the game, no level-ups after chargen. Sounds pretty dumb tbh, might eventually work for a fairly short game.

Micromanaging small amounts of points on skills often doesn't matter. While you first think it offers countless possibilities, it rarely makes a difference. You might as well choose race+class only for a character, and get rolling. There would still be enough replay value as you could just change your party setup next time.

Edit: or in other words - in party RPGs the gameplay is much more about how the party plays together, than micromanaging points on a single character.

With this I agree. I believe attributes+class or attributes+skills is enough to define any reasonable character build, having all three adds nothing of value (do I pump my Wizard's spell casting skill or his dagger skill? Such a dillema!). You might argue skills help define hybrid builds (a spellsword needs both spells and a sword, what do you want to focus more on?), but that's easily solved by letting the player manually allocate attribute points and put them in either physical or mental stats.
Your party RPG argument is also excellent.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Vertical growth is so fucking boring, let characters grow horizontally too with access to more options

This here is an actual good post in this joke of a thread and somewhat gets to the ground of the OP's problem.
His issue isn't with character development itself, but with huge gaps of vertical growth. The low levels being boring because they're too arbitrary, and the high levels being boring because they're too roflstompy.

Which doesn't mean vertical progression is bad. There should be vertical progression. Going from a normal dude with a sword who gets raped by wolf packs to a dragonslayer with the most bling armor in the empire is cool. Gothic 2 does it right. Gothic 2 also has a good enough combat system that you can still get fucked by a group of lower level enemies at a high level if you act like an absolute retard. Unlikely, but possible. And the satisfaction of finally being able to kill a shadowbeast after it has managed to kill you with two hits for the last 5 hours of game time is wonderful. The whole "you get fucked up by enemies, but then you progress in your skills, stats, and equipment until you can finally fuck them up yourself".

Gothic 2 also has a nice structure, with harder enemies guarding the approach to more difficult areas, so as your skills grow, the world becomes more open, you can explore more freely. Properly designing and placing your encounters is very important if you want to make progression feel good. There should always be another challenge lurking around the corner. In fact, enemy and encounter design is elementary for good progression: there should be challenging but doable encounters for level 1 characters that don't just boil down to "miss, miss, miss, crit and dead". If combat boils down to that at low levels, either the system is shit or the encounter design is shit. And while I wouldn't say D&D is bad, I do think that it's better suited to pen and paper games than PC games and you can develop a better system that's more interesting at low levels. Still, you can design good encounters at low level D&D, too. The generic "group of 5 xvarts" encounter of Baldur's Gate 1 is not one of those.

If your encounter design is actually good, low levels will feel fun enough to not be a chore, mid-levels are the most interesting by default, sure, and high levels can also be fun if you do your encounter design right. BG2's high level expansion Throne of Bhaal isn't shit because it's high level. It's shit because most encounters boil down to "here's three giants with HP bloat and high damage attacks lol", which is an uncreative and boring encounter type. But then there's also Demogorgon in Watcher's Keep, which is a genuinely challenging and fun encounter that has you play around with high level spells a lot.

So OP's #1 issue is more easily solved by good encounter design, rather than by eliminating progression. What he's really asking for is that all encounters in a game should be as fun as those cool BG2 dungeons with varied enemy groups, enemy adventurer parties, monsters with special abilities etc. Well yes. All encounters in the game should be that good. The solution isn't to fix the party at level 12 and design all encounters around level 12, and have no other levels in the game whatsoever. That defeats the entire purpose, because then we end up with a boring game where everything stays at the same level. It's actually detrimental to variety. When OP claims that there's one level at which the game is best (and he's almost certainly referring to D&D with the "miss, miss, crit" criticism of early levels, so I'll refer to the D&D system here), he doesn't actually mean that. He means there's a certain level range at which the game is best. Usually, most people consider levels 5-12 to be the best since at those levels you got a lot of cool spells, items, and abilities while nothing is ridiculously overpowered yet. At the lower edges of that level range you are still threatened by groups of bandits and orcs, and at the higher edges you can encounter iconic D&D monsters like illithids, beholders, dragons etc.

If you were to remove progression entirely and just fix the levels of everything at level X, you'd remove this kind of variation. You could hightail it to the end boss and kill him right away because every encounter has to be doable at any point during the game. There is no going through sidequests to get enough XP to be strong enough for the next main quest boss. The whole point of the genre would be defeated. Yes, you can narrow down the level range to make progression less drastic, but you can't remove it entirely without killing the essence of what is an RPG. Make the player progress from fighting groups of orcish raiders to fighting a cult of evil wizards supported by beholders, rather than making it progress from killing lowly goblins to slaying bigass dragons. But there still needs to be some kind of progression, or it wouldn't be a proper RPG anymore.

Now, to frajaq's point that I quoted above: adding horizontal progression to a character, rather than purely vertical, makes things a lot more interesting and can alleviate the problem of leveling up just being about raising stats. D&D 3.5's feats are pretty good for that, or Fallout's perks. New abilities that go beyond simply adding +1 to your armor, hit chance, or damage. Things like whirlwind attack that make a fighter more useful for crowd control, adding more versatility to the character. Fallout's animal friend that lets you totally avoid combat with animals in Fallout 1 and 2 (™). The thieving abilities that allow you to do a whole new questline in Gothic 2, which you can't do without them. Things like that. Horizontal progression, the addition of new abilities to your characters that allow for new approaches, can be even more fun than purely vertical progression and there should be more games and systems that do this kind of thing.
 
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Vertical growth is so fucking boring, let characters grow horizontally too with access to more options

Agreed, horizontal growth when done right (ie, Guild Wars) is the best form of character progression, in my opinion. Or at least, I find it the most fun and engaging. Arx Fatalis felt like it went this way too, at least as a mage - my stat growth didn't seem to make much difference, it was more about finding new runes to cast different spells.
 
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Garbage in, garbage out. Paralyzing a game because it has some weakness at the extremes of its system is not a good solution. Obviously, designing a better system that isn't lopsided at its extremes is superior, but encounter design can remedy the worst it. The use of ECL, which seems to have been bizarrely abandoned can do a great deal to keep bloat from unbalancing the PC in a large game.
 

orcinator

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You could hightail it to the end boss and kill him right away because every encounter has to be doable at any point during the game. There is no going through sidequests to get enough XP to be strong enough for the next main quest boss. The whole point of the genre would be defeated.

Imagine thinking this is a bad thing.
 

DavidBVal

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Pathfinder: Wrath
Why are games fun? Because they satisfy our instincts from 20,000 years ago. Hunting. Exploring. Being part of a group that brings down a huge beast. And also *building power*, to become a better hunter/explorer or to feel safer. There is no need to innovate this, everything is fine.

What you describe as the perfect mid-level in which everything is fun, wouldn't be so if you stayed there forever. At level 13 you are so happy, because you look back to all those level 1 misses and feel you have progressed, and because you look forward to reach high levels and become mega-powerful. You can't know for sure how fun would that mid-level be "in vacuum".
 

Nifft Batuff

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Leveling up is fun only if it is associated to some form of exploration/story, as happens in metrodidvania games: new paths and possibilities open up as you level up-
On the other hand, levelling up associated to combat is pure illusion. It's a gamey contraption to trick your mind that there is some sort of progression where there is not. You level up, enemies level up and the difficult stays the same. It is no so much different from skinner boxes with microtransaction to progress in the game: it is all a brainwash.
 

Yosharian

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Everything is pointless, if you view it like that. Life is pointless. Just enjoy it while it lasts, that's the only smart thing to do.
 

Norfleet

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I actually kind of agree with this. Consider that the the typical RPG progression has the character progress from scrub who can barely manage to dress himself without getting his shoes on the wrong feet to punching out dragons with his bare hands, all while the enemies he faces has to thus progress similarly. If they're humans, it makes you wonder how these OTHER superhumans haven't taken over the rest of the world and why podunk noobland is somehow left to its own devices despite being putatively important. If they're not humans, then the entire later half of the game basically has you punching out monsters and the entire human element is completely lost.

Clearly, this progression model makes for rather flawed worldbuilding, and, frankly, isn't satisfying, because we all know the early game completely sucks and the later game becomes completely overpowered and silly, with every stage simply leaving you feeling incomplete and unwhole...because you basically are.

Also, it lends itself to the ever-tedious and annoying trope of child protagonists, because only a child would otherwise be so utterly incapable of even dressing himself. An actual adult would probably have at least one functional skillset that he's actually good at.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Leveling up is fun only if it is associated to some form of exploration/story, as happens in metrodidvania games: new paths and possibilities open up as you level up-
On the other hand, levelling up associated to combat is pure illusion. It's a gamey contraption to trick your mind that there is some sort of progression where there is not. You level up, enemies level up and the difficult stays the same. It is no so much different from skinner boxes with microtransaction to progress in the game: it is all a brainwash.

That only happens in a game with level scaling, and pretty much every single poster on the Codex knows that level scaling is utter, irredeemable shit.

If you have hand-placed encounters, like in the Gothic games, the progression of your combat skills allows you to access new areas because you are finally able to defeat the enemies in that area.
 

Loostreaks

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This here is an actual good post in this joke of a thread and somewhat gets to the ground of the OP's problem.
His issue isn't with character development itself, but with huge gaps of vertical growth. The low levels being boring because they're too arbitrary, and the high levels being boring because they're too roflstompy.

Which doesn't mean vertical progression is bad. There should be vertical progression. Going from a normal dude with a sword who gets raped by wolf packs to a dragonslayer with the most bling armor in the empire is cool. Gothic 2 does it right. Gothic 2 also has a good enough combat system that you can still get fucked by a group of lower level enemies at a high level if you act like an absolute retard. Unlikely, but possible. And the satisfaction of finally being able to kill a shadowbeast after it has managed to kill you with two hits for the last 5 hours of game time is wonderful. The whole "you get fucked up by enemies, but then you progress in your skills, stats, and equipment until you can finally fuck them up yourself".

Gothic 2 also has a nice structure, with harder enemies guarding the approach to more difficult areas, so as your skills grow, the world becomes more open, you can explore more freely. Properly designing and placing your encounters is very important if you want to make progression feel good. There should always be another challenge lurking around the corner. In fact, enemy and encounter design is elementary for good progression: there should be challenging but doable encounters for level 1 characters that don't just boil down to "miss, miss, miss, crit and dead". If combat boils down to that at low levels, either the system is shit or the encounter design is shit. And while I wouldn't say D&D is bad, I do think that it's better suited to pen and paper games than PC games and you can develop a better system that's more interesting at low levels. Still, you can design good encounters at low level D&D, too. The generic "group of 5 xvarts" encounter of Baldur's Gate 1 is not one of those.

If your encounter design is actually good, low levels will feel fun enough to not be a chore, mid-levels are the most interesting by default, sure, and high levels can also be fun if you do your encounter design right. BG2's high level expansion Throne of Bhaal isn't shit because it's high level. It's shit because most encounters boil down to "here's three giants with HP bloat and high damage attacks lol", which is an uncreative and boring encounter type. But then there's also Demogorgon in Watcher's Keep, which is a genuinely challenging and fun encounter that has you play around with high level spells a lot.

So OP's #1 issue is more easily solved by good encounter design, rather than by eliminating progression. What he's really asking for is that all encounters in a game should be as fun as those cool BG2 dungeons with varied enemy groups, enemy adventurer parties, monsters with special abilities etc. Well yes. All encounters in the game should be that good. The solution isn't to fix the party at level 12 and design all encounters around level 12, and have no other levels in the game whatsoever. That defeats the entire purpose, because then we end up with a boring game where everything stays at the same level. It's actually detrimental to variety. When OP claims that there's one level at which the game is best (and he's almost certainly referring to D&D with the "miss, miss, crit" criticism of early levels, so I'll refer to the D&D system here), he doesn't actually mean that. He means there's a certain level range at which the game is best. Usually, most people consider levels 5-12 to be the best since at those levels you got a lot of cool spells, items, and abilities while nothing is ridiculously overpowered yet. At the lower edges of that level range you are still threatened by groups of bandits and orcs, and at the higher edges you can encounter iconic D&D monsters like illithids, beholders, dragons etc.

If you were to remove progression entirely and just fix the levels of everything at level X, you'd remove this kind of variation. You could hightail it to the end boss and kill him right away because every encounter has to be doable at any point during the game. There is no going through sidequests to get enough XP to be strong enough for the next main quest boss. The whole point of the genre would be defeated. Yes, you can narrow down the level range to make progression less drastic, but you can't remove it entirely without killing the essence of what is an RPG. Make the player progress from fighting groups of orcish raiders to fighting a cult of evil wizards supported by beholders, rather than making it progress from killing lowly goblins to slaying bigass dragons. But there still needs to be some kind of progression, or it wouldn't be a proper RPG anymore.

Now, to frajaq's point that I quoted above: adding horizontal progression to a character, rather than purely vertical, makes things a lot more interesting and can alleviate the problem of leveling up just being about raising stats. D&D 3.5's feats are pretty good for that, or Fallout's perks. New abilities that go beyond simply adding +1 to your armor, hit chance, or damage. Things like whirlwind attack that make a fighter more useful for crowd control, adding more versatility to the character. Fallout's animal friend that lets you totally avoid combat with animals in Fallout 1 and 2 (™). The thieving abilities that allow you to do a whole new questline in Gothic 2, which you can't do without them. Things like that. Horizontal progression, the addition of new abilities to your characters that allow for new approaches, can be even more fun than purely vertical progression and there should be more games and systems that do this kind of thing.

Gothic character progression is absolute dogshit. Nearly every level up: +5 ( or so) points into basic hit/damage bonus...it's like modern ARPG where you constantly pick the same 3 perks. And it's even worse with NotR expansion: higher ranks require more points, which leads to completely unsatisfying grind, until you have to gain three to five levels to gain pathetic bonus. And it's utterly laughable you're using "good encounter design" as argument for this: the entire game revolves around same recycling: 3 or 4 wolves/boars/worgs ( play identically), 3 or 4 scavengers/snappers/dragon snappers ( play identically), 3 or 4 humans/skeletons ( play identically), 3 or 4 orcs/lizards...etc, etc. No use of terrain, variation with AI, enemy builds/weapons, different placement, etc...simply the same recycling of same utterly simplistic combat ( and the one, that ironically, does not even work with mob encounters).
And you can very easily kill "muh preciousss shadowbeast" even at lvl1..AI is one note complete dogshit, and player is literally invincible as long as you hold the S button( great job with I-frames again, PB).
It's always amusing to see Codexian retardation at work, here. :lol:
 

Stormcrowfleet

Aeon & Star Interactive
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Garbage in, garbage out. Paralyzing a game because it has some weakness at the extremes of its system is not a good solution. Obviously, designing a better system that isn't lopsided at its extremes is superior, but encounter design can remedy the worst it. The use of ECL, which seems to have been bizarrely abandoned can do a great deal to keep bloat from unbalancing the PC in a large game.
Can you enlighten me with what ECL means ?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Gothic character progression is absolute dogshit. Nearly every level up: +5 ( or so) points into basic hit/damage bonus...it's like modern ARPG where you constantly pick the same 3 perks. And it's even worse with NotR expansion: higher ranks require more points, which leads to completely unsatisfying grind, until you have to gain three to five levels to gain pathetic bonus. And it's utterly laughable you're using "good encounter design" as argument for this: the entire game revolves around same recycling: 3 or 4 wolves/boars/worgs ( play identically), 3 or 4 scavengers/snappers/dragon snappers ( play identically), 3 or 4 humans/skeletons ( play identically), 3 or 4 orcs/lizards...etc, etc. No use of terrain, variation with AI, enemy builds/weapons, different placement, etc...simply the same recycling of same utterly simplistic combat ( and the one, that ironically, does not even work with mob encounters).
And you can very easily kill "muh preciousss shadowbeast" even at lvl1..AI is one note complete dogshit, and player is literally invincible as long as you hold the S button( great job with I-frames again, PB).
It's always amusing to see Codexian retardation at work, here. :lol:

Yeah, if you're an expert at the combat system and know how to exploit enemy weaknesses you can beat any enemy easily in any action RPG :roll:

But for most players, especially first time players, the reality is that combat is hard at the start and you only start to dominate your enemies later on.

All your criticisms are against Gothic's system and enemy variety. However, the overall structure of the encounter design is what I cited as an example of what works well, and this stands regardless of your criticisms.

Progression feels rewarding because it lets you overcome hand-placed enemies that used to be a danger to your low level character.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,662
Do you think I'm going through combat after combat just to read more of your highbrow story?

This is funny. I've read another user said that, without a story, RPGs are pointless, i.e. "Do you think I'll bother going through combat after combat without a story?". Both are isolated comments from just two users, but the thing they have in common is that they have a major disdain for RPG combat. That is, you need autistic progression or retarded stories for people to be interested in them.

I didn't read JarlFrank 's post but the thing about Gothic is that the combat is fun and engaging in all three stages of the game. And that's not only because the progression itself is satisfying and palpable, but because it also gives you more "tools" to deal with your enemies, far beyond simple "higher damage". The very last enemies of Gothic, which I think were swordsmen of sorts, still required me to see past their moves to know how to kill them effectively. On other RPGs, you probably simply "plowed" through them, i.e. it was a mindless affair.
 
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