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Fallout 3 2D/TB vs 3D/FPS

gromit

Arcane
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
2,771
Location
Gentrification Station
Here is my musing:

If someone is really awful... really, completely, hopelessly awful, at FPS combat, i.e. can't get the damn cursor over a moving object and maybe 25% of the time on a stationary one, low skill in a DX-style system will HELP THEM. I have seen this, it is incredible really.
 

MadReaper

Novice
Joined
Mar 18, 2007
Messages
15
You are a retard. A game don't need to be 2d to have TB and iso-view. And FPS means First Person Shooter, not First Person View, which I hope you are meaning (else you are an even bigger retard). And you aren't even a funny retard.

Actually yeah my mistake I did mean Isometric/TB. Did you know that FPS also stands for fucking point and shoot?

Since the game fucking obviously isn't going to be 2D, though it could have been in an isometric view this whole topic is retarded anyway, but in a 3D/iso view, there is nothing in the way of having rag-doll physics. And who fucking cares about rag dolls anyway, it adds absolutely siltch to game play. If you were talking about physics in general, at least. Sheesh. And immersion? Get back to gamespot you fucking xbox kid.

I was talking about iso/3D. Did you just say there is not such thing is immersion? Now that right there is retarded.

Did you just switch this around after Mountain Wests remark, without any other notice? How about I told you to jump of a bridge? You'd do that too, I'd betcha.

I switched it around because I agreed with him dumbass. What's the point of quoting and saying I agree, since I changed it don't you think that means I'm saying I agree?

What? How? Didn't you just say it's more immersive? Does not compute.[/qoute]

I said exploration and looking at things did I say combat is more immersive?

How is fallouty and rpgish the same? There are other RPGs than Fallout, you know.

Your just being a dick now. You know what I mean.

Who fucking cares! Go play dolly go dressup with your little sister!

What's wrong with wanting to see your character?

It don't have to be like that (though it will, since Beth is making it).

No shit who else would I be reffering to?

What? Why the hell not? I 'm guessing you're talking about followers, since Fallout didn't have a party. Gothic 3 is 3D You could even have that retard fan as a follower in Oblivion. Fallout and Fallout Tactics aren't the same game, BTW.

No there not but fallout tactics made some improvements over the orginal fallout.

Alot of people ran away from Deus Ex because combat blew ass.(standing there waiting for you're cursor to close, great game though
They did? Source, plz.

I can't list a source because it never broke 1 mil in sales.

Now where does this real time option come from? Why do we need that? It's not in your topic, and we don't fucking need some lame ass hybrid. Devs should pick one, and do that one properly.[/qoute]

Some people like it, I like TB myself

Where do these numbers come from? Please do tell me, though judging from the smell I'd guess your ass.

Did you play even play Fallout on insane?

What? Guess you haven't played Arcanum. Or Fallout for that matter.

Guess you never heard that these problems can be fixed? You act like FO3 should copy what was bad in FO.

Again with the immersive bullshit. Do you even know the meaning of the word? For your convenience.

b. The condition of being immersed. Immersed means 2. Deeply occupied; engrossed; entangled. Do you know is the real question?

See above, you fucking retard.

wow lets play the same game with better graphics. Maybe it's time you went to gamespot?

They do? Just by the game being 2D? And TB... err TB/realtime hybrid? What kind of coding magic does this? Care to explain?

Follout tactics did it. Same gameplay as fallout expect you have a party.

Why do you lie?

Again did you play fallout? You're telling me you have never been outnumbered? Too weak?

Let me guess, you heard it on gamespot, right?

Been reading it here actually.

Not as old as FPRPGs you fucking imbecile.

Wow get laid.

Oooh, look at meee, I know that Wolfenstein was released before Doom! I know so muuuuch. I am so leeet. Only you AREN'T. The first real time 3D game with first person view, was Ultima Underworld, which, by the way, happened to be a RPG. You are an ignorant little twit, who don't know what the hell you are talking about. Suck it up

It was just an example, dumbass. Wow look at me I named an older game than you I'm so leet.

Because of fucking retards like you, who think it's more immersing.

See above

What, this is news to me. How exactly has FPSes been improved since Wolfenstein? Other than shinier grafix. Enlighten me.

Not much but just the camera was improved. Thats about it really. All you did was futher prove my point on why fallout should be isometric.

The rest of your garbbage which just being a smartass to get nerd points with all your little buddies. Rather than trying to improve the game all you did was ignore it. All you want is Fallout with shinier graphics. Wow the irony.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
This thread is fucking terrible. Even ignoring its many other crimes against humanity, it has somebody posting on an internet messageboard about CRPGs telling another member to "get laid", and that's so very close to Retardo-worthy.
 

Hazelnut

Erudite
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
1,490
Location
UK
MadReaper said:
Hazelnut said:
Huh? That was a great way to get skill based FPS type combat I think. I didn't realise that it caused a lot of people to run away from the game though... sources?

I guess I didn't make it clear enough, I didn't run from it, I loved it. I was just saying alot of people were turned off by it.

I guess I didn't make it clear enough, I didn't think that you had run from it, I got that you didn't. I was just asking for the source of your assertion that it caused a lot of people to 'run' away from it.

Sheesh!

(I'm being charitable and assuming English is not your first language, although I'm tempted to side with DP's assessment)
 

MadReaper

Novice
Joined
Mar 18, 2007
Messages
15
I wasn't getting defense even though it may have sounded like it. Yes you are right english is not my main language.
 

MacBone

Scholar
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
554
Location
Brutopia
MadReaper said:
What's wrong with wanting to see your character?

No there not but fallout tactics made some improvements over the orginal fallout.

Follout tactics did it. Same gameplay as fallout expect you have a party.

It was just an example, dumbass. Wow look at me I named an older game than you I'm so leet.
You're not making a great first impression, sweetcheeks.

Edit - For some reason, I'm not buying your claim that you're not a native speaker of English. The misspellings, the mixing up of there/their/they're and your/you're - those seem like American English speaker errors to me. If I'm wrong, please forgive me.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Naked Ninja said:
Scaling damage done based on skill will work fine. Players will accept it. They accept the same thing in every 1st person RPG. You might not like Oblivion/MW as an example, but I never noticed anyone complain that when they hit people with their sword the damage done wasn't accurately modelled off where the sword hit the person, only off the stats of the item/character.Most RPG players prefer this. Why wouldn't they accept that in F3, with guns?

Sword is much different through, crossbow only thing that works the same as pistol, in gothic games you didn't aim through. Ok that is not as big of a problem but I would like to have better chance of making high dmg (critical) based on stats then raw changing of dmg then, and I thing that basing advancement system mostly on weapon ugr (like in Arcanum) would be better.
 

Hazelnut

Erudite
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
1,490
Location
UK
MacBone said:
You're not making a great first impression, sweetcheeks.
Agreed, but then neither did JoeK and he turns out to have at least a few operational brain cells and a funny bone to boot. My top tip for all snoobs is: read-write ratio should very heavily favor reading. Remember, threads are not all irrelevant due to being in the past.

MacBone said:
Edit - For some reason, I'm not buying your claim that you're not a native speaker of English. The misspellings, the mixing up of there/their/they're and your/you're - those seem like American English speaker errors to me. If I'm wrong, please forgive me.

Counts as a non-native speaker to me... :lol:
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
The Von Braun, Deck 5
denizsi said:
It don't have to be like that.

You mean "it doesn't have to be like that", right ?
Yeah, yeah. I know. Owned and all that. I should know better than commenting other peoples grammar, when my own isn't impeccable. Had that one coming.

MadReaper said:
Actually yeah my mistake I did mean Isometric/TB. Did you know that FPS also stands for fucking point and shoot?
Still not a funny retard.

MadReaper said:
Since the game fucking obviously isn't going to be 2D, though it could have been in an isometric view this whole topic is retarded anyway, but in a 3D/iso view, there is nothing in the way of having rag-doll physics. And who fucking cares about rag dolls anyway, it adds absolutely siltch to game play. If you were talking about physics in general, at least. Sheesh. And immersion? Get back to gamespot you fucking xbox kid.
I was talking about iso/3D. Did you just say there is not such thing is immersion? Now that right there is retarded.
No, I didn't say there is not such thing is immersion. You just quoted me, can't you read? Are you a retard? Yes, I think you are.

MadReaper said:
I switched it around because I agreed with him dumbass. What's the point of quoting and saying I agree, since I changed it don't you think that means I'm saying I agree?
No, you switched because you are a pushover. It's painfully obvious.

MadReaper said:
I said exploration and looking at things did I say combat is more immersive?
Let me answer with a question: Do you think that Fallout's combat isn't repetitive after the first two hours?

MadReaper said:
Your just being a dick now. You know what I mean.
Yes, I'm being a dick, and you are being a retard.

MadReaper said:
What's wrong with wanting to see your character?
Bet you want to feel him up as well.

MadReaper said:
No shit who else would I be reffering to?
Judging form all the other bullshit you write, not the game Beth will make.

MadReaper said:
No there not but fallout tactics made some improvements over the orginal fallout.
Perhaps it did. I haven't played Fallout Tactics.

MadReaper said:
I can't list a source because it never broke 1 mil in sales.
What? So you're just assuming that was because of the combat? In other words, you just pulled it out of your ass?

MadReaper said:
Now where does this real time option come from? Why do we need that? It's not in your topic, and we don't fucking need some lame ass hybrid. Devs should pick one, and do that one properly.

Some people like it, I like TB myself
Then why didn't you write just TB? Why include a "real time option", when both systems obviously will suffer from it (cases in point: every fucking game with optional combat systems).

MadReaper said:
Where do these numbers come from? Please do tell me, though judging from the smell I'd guess your ass.
Did you play even play Fallout on insane?
Did you even play Fallout?

MadReaper said:
What? Guess you haven't played Arcanum. Or Fallout for that matter.
Guess you never heard that these problems can be fixed? You act like FO3 should copy what was bad in FO.
what

MadReaper said:

Hah, you just proved you are a retard! The only obvious definitions of immersion related to game hype-speak are:
  • 2. Baptism performed by totally submerging a person in water.
  • 3. Astronomy The obscuring of a celestial body by another or by the shadow of another.
MadReaper said:
wow lets play the same game with better graphics. Maybe it's time you went to gamespot?
I have a feeling I'm repeating myself here, but: what

MadReaper said:
They do? Just by the game being 2D? And TB... err TB/realtime hybrid? What kind of coding magic does this? Care to explain?

Follout tactics did it. Same gameplay as fallout expect you have a party.
Ok, here you are somewhat justified in your retardedry, what I meant to write was: "They do? Just by the game being 2D, and having TB... err TB/realtime hybrid-combat? What kind of coding magic does this? Care to explain?"
Sorry for this. Now you can try to answer in a coherent way to what I actually meant.

MadReaper said:
Again did you play fallout? You're telling me you have never been outnumbered? Too weak?
Again, did you play Fallout?

MadReaper said:
Been reading it here actually.
Great! Bring on the source! If the person stating it has a red "Dumbfuck !!!"-title, you are still a retard. You are that anyway, actually, so don't bother.

MadReaper said:
Wow get laid.
Want me to say hello to your mom, while I'm at it?

MadReaper said:
It was just an example, dumbass. Wow look at me I named an older game than you I'm so leet.
More than you, at least. :)

MadReaper said:
Because of fucking retards like you, who think it's more immersing.

See above
What, that about getting laid? I will, I will.

MadReaper said:
Not much but just the camera was improved. Thats about it really. All you did was futher prove my point on why fallout should be isometric.
Bwahahaha! You are killing me. You mean mouse look? Or what? Camera movement from side to side, while running?

MadReaper said:
The rest of your garbbage which just being a smartass to get nerd points with all your little buddies.
You're spot on. Wow! You can, when you try really really hard.

MadReaper said:
Rather than trying to improve the game all you did was ignore it.
Loosing me again: what

MadReaper said:
All you want is Fallout with shinier graphics.
If Beth actually could manage that, I'd be overjoyed. Not much use hoping for that though.

MadReaper said:
Wow the irony.
I can't be bothered to look up irony for you, do it your self.
 

don_tomaso

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
283
Naked Ninja said:
... Ruined city? I want to look up and see the twisted skeletons of the skyscrapers. Thats immersive...

Well you forget one thing: Betheseda is making FO3, which means your beloved skyscrapers will probably be something like 20 meters high, surrounded by 5-6 smaller buildings, making it a ruined city, according to bethesda standards..
 

Amasius

Augur
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
959
Location
Thanatos
kingcomrade said:
I want to look up and see the twisted skeletons of the skyscrapers.
I want to be able to see the fear in the eyes of the skyscrapers.
I only want to see fear in this eyes:
todddd.jpg
 

MacBone

Scholar
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
554
Location
Brutopia
Hazelnut said:
MacBone said:
Edit - For some reason, I'm not buying your claim that you're not a native speaker of English. The misspellings, the mixing up of there/their/they're and your/you're - those seem like American English speaker errors to me. If I'm wrong, please forgive me.

Counts as a non-native speaker to me... :lol:

Touché!
 

gc051360

Scholar
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
256
I think the camera in FO3 should be like the one from NW nights, or all of the strategy games that come out. Over the top, rotational, movable, camera.

Combat. I figure TB could be cool. Well...in fact...real time could be very cool too. The one thing I know. Is that Bethesda can't do either one very well, so what does it matter.

And immersiveness in game speak usually means, accessible to the masses, and shiny graphics.
 

crufty

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
6,383
Location
Glassworks
Naked Ninja said:
Simply for the vertical component. Ruined city? I want to look up and see the twisted skeletons of the skyscrapers. Thats immersive. As are enemies who are bigger than you. I like to see something coming, look up and go "oh shit". Super mutants would look cooler in 1st perso.


Code:
You blast the very large mutant with your shotgun; shotgun pellets rip through his torso, -more-
.......
.#####.
.#.%M#.
.#<#-#.
.@.....
.......
 

tunguska

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
227
@dementia: You need to chill. We're talking about games here for christ sake. How old are you anyway? It is rare for any adult person to use the word 'retard' as a derogatory so much. I am guessing you are in the 11-14 range. Am I right? Yeah, yeah, I know...age-ism etc. But sometimes it really shows. Quite painful on the eyes. I don't understand why it is so difficult for children to at least act adult. The other word that marks out the real kiddies is the slang use of 'gay' as in 'that is so gay'. I didn't notice you using that however.

I want an interesting story and an immersive world, preferably written by Chris Avellone, Dave Maldonado, and the rest of Team Torment who were involved with the writing. They are the only folks to my knowledge who have ever pulled off a good story in a cRPG. So yes, Obsidian should be doing Fallout 3. There is absolutely no chance of Bethesda creating a worthy succesor to the Fallout series. After that, I would vote for a movable camera like in Black and White if at all possible. If that is not possible then I would vote for either a first person or a near first person (closeup and very forward angled camera) perspective. A distant 3rd person perspective as in all the infinity engine games was too lacking in immersiveness. I just didn't feel 'there' or pulled in enough.

For technical reasons a true first person perspective may be too problematic for a party based game, but keep me zoomed in (or just allow for a zooming option) so the characters are not little figures in a huge landscape. Also keep in mind that a first person or near first person perspective allows for more a more effective stereo 3D view. I am hoping someday to get my hands on either an auto-stereoscopic LCD display or an HMD with a half-decent resolution. [ I do have shutter glasses and a 21" CRT monitor, but that combo gives me a headache in about 30 minutes without fail.] We are living in the 21st century now. I want the flying cars and android women from Blade Runner, the AI from 2001, and (as close as we can get to) the display tech of ST:TNG. For now I'll settle for at least a 3D display with parallax.

As far as TB vs. RT/RTwP. I'd definitely side with RTwP as long as it has the auto-pause per turn feature that PS:T had (did BG and IWD2 have it too?). Auto-pause per turn is basically the same play style of TB except with the option to turn it off for easy, non-strategic fighting where it just slows down what might otherwise be an enjoyable fighting sequence. The near-infinite joy of machine gunning a whole schoolyard full of children for instance is greatly lessened in a turn-based only game. Although, to its credit, the Fallout series were the only games I can recall playing that have let me gratuitously gun down children to my heart's content.
 

tunguska

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
227
And immersiveness in game speak usually means, accessible to the masses, and shiny graphics.
Actually that is not at all what it means. For instance, neither Oblivion nor any other Bethesda game has ever been immersive in any way whatsoever except graphically. Graphics are only a limited part of what immersion is supposed to be about. Not to say that VR and superbly designed and finely textured and bump mapped graphics cannot immerse you to a degree. But graphics are just the beginning.

The term 'immersion' in a video game actually refers to a (admittedly subjective) sense of actually existing in a world. If you haven't played the right games you may only know what I am referring to from certain books or even films that have drawn you in so well into their world that you felt a part of it. Like you were really in that fictional world for a time. It really is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it, but you probably have. That is what people are talking about when they talk about immersion in a video game.

I realize that it has become a buzzword of sorts that all the devs want to use, but it really does have a meaning, and a useful one at that. It really cannot be a bad thing, any more than good graphics can be. The difference is I have never seen a developer sacrifice what otherwise might have been a fine game on the alter of 'immersion'. The fact is, making a game immersive is even more expensive in terms of talented man-hours than creating life-like models and scenery. It is also far more difficult. The only games (that I have played) that felt 'immersive' to me are Ultima Underworld I/II, Planescape:Torment, and Arx Fatalis. Sure, I liked some other games. A lot. But none of them really pulled me into their world like those games.

Unfortunately, the graphics of the Underworld games are so dated now, that anyone who did not play the game at a time when those graphics were cutting edge is not likely to feel that same level of immersiveness. The graphics were actually very impressive at the time. Luckily I had my trusty 486DX-33 so that I could enjoy the graphics in all their glory. 20 years from now people will be looking back and laughing at the pathetic graphics of Oblivion. "How could anyone have played that?", people will wonder. Of course, people here tend to share that sentiment, but for very different reasons.
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
tunguska said:
And immersiveness in game speak usually means, accessible to the masses, and shiny graphics.
Actually that is not at all what it means. For instance, neither Oblivion nor any other Bethesda game has ever been immersive in any way whatsoever except graphically.

For you maybe, but I would contest that. Both Daggerfall and Morrowind were highly immersive to me not because of the graphics, but because of the freedom of movement in a virtual world (not restricted by invisible walls, etc.) and the attempt at simulating an entire world, with many inhabitants, guilds, etc.. The detailed lore was a big part too. Especially for DF, graphics were actually a minor part - I thought at the time that the UUW graphics were actually significantly better than DF's, with exception of the larger screen area in DF.
 
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tunguska said:
@dementia: You need to chill. We're talking about games here for christ sake.
I need to chill because we are talking about games?

tunguska said:
How old are you anyway? [...] I am guessing you are in the 11-14 range. Am I right? Yeah, yeah, I know...age-ism etc. But sometimes it really shows. Quite painful on the eyes. .
Oh boy, how wrong you are. I am actually Bryce's grandfather. You fail at life.

tunguska said:
It is rare for any adult person to use the word 'retard' as a derogatory so much.
The codex begs to differ. What's up with you acting up on the use of retard all the time, anyway? Seems like it's pushing your buttons for sure. Perhaps you have a retarded cousin? Or are you just plain retarded yourself?

tunguska said:
I don't understand why it is so difficult for children to at least act adult.
It's not. Look at Jimmyboy for reference. He is quite a patriot, and my personal favorite TES-refugee. Acting far more adult than you, in all your political correct matureness.

tunguska said:
The other word that marks out the real kiddies is the slang use of 'gay' as in 'that is so gay'. I didn't notice you using that however
Don't go the gay-route unless my gaydar is flashing. Come to think of it, it's flashing right now. Are you gay, tunguska?
 

Naked Ninja

Arbiter
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Oct 31, 2006
Messages
1,664
Location
South Africa
He's got a point there tunguska, even really old people can act like immature pre-teen attention seeking idiots if they want.
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
As to the original topic. I personally prefer first person real time games, for a number of reasons dicussed elsewhere. But I would still prefer that FO3 should have turn based or at least very strongly tactical pausable combat and at least the otpion to zoom out to a top down perspective that is close to the original isometric perspective. Just because as a sequel it should build and improve on the strengths of the previous titles, and not replace them by something else, even if that something is also a strong design.
That said, I would nevertheless probably buy and enjoy a Fallout game with the gameplay of Deus Ex or System Shock. I would not buy a Fallout game with the gameplay of Halflife or Unreal or Doom. And I would be very sceptical towards one with the gameplay of Oblivion.
 

Section8

Cipher
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I want an interesting story and an immersive world, preferably written by Chris Avellone, Dave Maldonado, and the rest of Team Torment who were involved with the writing. They are the only folks to my knowledge who have ever pulled off a good story in a cRPG. So yes, Obsidian should be doing Fallout 3.

Obsidian, who have what, two lacklustre sequels to Bioware games that should have been Slam Dunks! given the licenses and (undeserved) reputation of their predecessors? I'll freely admit there's a lot of talent over there, but something just isn't going quite right. It's not even as though they are aiming too high and falling short a la Troika or Pirahna Bytes, they're just not putting anything special on the market.

There is absolutely no chance of Bethesda creating a worthy succesor to the Fallout series.

On that we agree. But...

After that, I would vote for a movable camera like in Black and White if at all possible.

How is the camera in Black and White any different to any other "top down" 3D game, aside from the gimmickry they used to replace a more workable system? It's an unfortunate choice of example.

If that is not possible then I would vote for either a first person or a near first person (closeup and very forward angled camera) perspective. A distant 3rd person perspective as in all the infinity engine games was too lacking in immersiveness. I just didn't feel 'there' or pulled in enough.

I wouldn't be so hasty to attribute the "lack of immersiveness" of the Infinity Engine series. As you say yourself, Planescape: Torment is one of about four games you consider to be immersive. Given that all other IE games have more in common with an RTS than an RPG, I'd be looking at other reasons why the games didn't pull you in. And just as a quick poser - do you really have to be 'there'?

As far as TB vs. RT/RTwP. I'd definitely side with RTwP as long as it has the auto-pause per turn feature that PS:T had (did BG and IWD2 have it too?). Auto-pause per turn is basically the same play style of TB except with the option to turn it off for easy, non-strategic fighting where it just slows down what might otherwise be an enjoyable fighting sequence.

/me hulks out.

Fuck that. There are a myriad of differences between a true turn-based system and auto-pausing RT systems. Since your major gripe is that simple fights can be tiresome with turn-based gameplay, then listen the fuck up, because I have a more generic solution than the fucked up kludgefest that is RTwP. Get rid of easy, non-tactical fights. It's fucking simple. And there are a multitude of ways you can achieve it. Fuck, even just a more elegant hack would do me. Simultaneous enemy movement. An "automate turn" button. Give it to me. Anything but the mindless non-challenge that fucking Bioware have been spewing forth from their hive-ridden cancerous cocks into the waiting mouths of non-discerning gamers for years.

The near-infinite joy of machine gunning a whole schoolyard full of children for instance is greatly lessened in a turn-based only game. Although, to its credit, the Fallout series were the only games I can recall playing that have let me gratuitously gun down children to my heart's content.

Use burst mode or fucking grenades. Fairy.

And once you're done with the kids, let me at 'em while they're still warm. And when I'm done, believe me it won't take long because christ I'm hard just thinking about it, I'll ask you to explain how a machinegun works in your typical RTwP game.

Ahem.

Anyway.

Actually that is not at all what it means. For instance, neither Oblivion nor any other Bethesda game has ever been immersive in any way whatsoever except graphically. Graphics are only a limited part of what immersion is supposed to be about. Not to say that VR and superbly designed and finely textured and bump mapped graphics cannot immerse you to a degree. But graphics are just the beginning.

We're back to agreeing. Almost. I'd argue that the technical quality of graphics has sweet fuck all to do with immersion. A fireball in doom is something like a 16x16 pixel bitmap in 8-bit colour, and you better believe I still physically duck and dodge in my chair as they fly past me. The graphical component of immersion is not about impressing the player with plastic, bump mapped Mattel horsehit, it's simply about avoiding anything the player's mind will subconsciously reject.

The term 'immersion' in a video game actually refers to a (admittedly subjective) sense of actually existing in a world. If you haven't played the right games you may only know what I am referring to from certain books or even films that have drawn you in so well into their world that you felt a part of it. Like you were really in that fictional world for a time. It really is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it, but you probably have. That is what people are talking about when they talk about immersion in a video game.

I realize that it has become a buzzword of sorts that all the devs want to use, but it really does have a meaning, and a useful one at that.

Well, sort of. Anything that has been hijacked as a buzzword basically becomes useless in legitimate conversation. I get the original intent behind the word, but I'm not naive enough to think it means anything other than "I like this game" or even "I'm led to believe I like this game."

It really cannot be a bad thing, any more than good graphics can be.

What constitutes "good" graphics though? To the uninitiated, it would be reasonable to assume that a fuckload of bloom, exagerration of all features, and lots of shiny colourful stuff increase the quality of graphics. Is a noun preceded by a dozen adjectives a "better" noun than a much more simple counterpart?


The difference is I have never seen a developer sacrifice what otherwise might have been a fine game on the alter of 'immersion'.

I've seen hundreds, maybe thousands, sacrificed on the altar of what a developer thinks (or wants us to think) immersion is, and I've seen a promising industry ground into the fucking dirt by stupefying budgets that nobody wants to take a risk on. Ever wonder why games today are about 10-20 times more expensive than they were 10 years ago?

The fact is, making a game immersive is even more expensive in terms of talented man-hours than creating life-like models and scenery. It is also far more difficult.

Bullshit. You could throw an unlimited budget toward making a game "immersive" and still come up with a piece of shit. Like you awkwardly suggested, it's about talent. But talent doesn't bear a high premium that somehow eclipses the massive resources required to make a game full of "life-like models and scenery".

Unfortunately, the graphics of the Underworld games are so dated now, that anyone who did not play the game at a time when those graphics were cutting edge is not likely to feel that same level of immersiveness.

I don't think the graphics are likely to affect the immersion by any means other than the player's willingness to be immersed. Anyone willing to "give it a chance" would be hooked within an hour, provided they can tolerate the interface.
 
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@Section8: You need to chill. We're talking about games here for christ sake. How old are you anyway? It is rare for any adult person to use the word 'fuck' as a derogatory so much. I am guessing you are in the 11-14 range. Am I right? Yeah, yeah, I know...age-ism etc. But sometimes it really shows. Quite painful on the eyes. I don't understand why it is so difficult for children to at least act adult. The other word that marks out the real kiddies is the slang use of 'gay' as in 'that is so gay'. I didn't notice you using that however.
 

elander_

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GhanBuriGhan said:
I would nevertheless probably buy and enjoy a Fallout game with the gameplay of Deus Ex or System Shock. I would not buy a Fallout game with the gameplay of Halflife or Unreal or Doom. And I would be very sceptical towards one with the gameplay of Oblivion.

If the combat and skills handling was similar it would not be so bad (trageting in DeusEx sucks however), but DeusEx and Fallout are very different games. There's no dialog roleplaying or faction roleplaying in DeusEx. That's a significant part of gameplay that would be thrown away.

I wonder how would you solve the targeting problem. It sucked in DeusEx and sucked in Bloodlines. The only action rpg i played that did this to my liking was System Shock. No retarded targeting but the damage we take (and the rate at which weapons condition deteriorate (?) don't remenber) depends on skill.

DeusEx definitely dumbed down the System Shock system a lot by removing weapons jamming and deterioration. Besides psi skills are much cooler than DeusEx upgrades and DeusEx has thrown away great skills like research (similar to science in Fallout) and repair (similar to repair in Fallout lol). These are skills that reward you with new lore and information.
 

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