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Preview First Cyberpunk 2077 gameplay details revealed

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Infinitron, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Sacibengala Learned

    Sacibengala
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    since when the character perspective defines what is a good rpg?
     
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  2. tindrli Arcane

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    fuck, i thought it was gona be isometric
     
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  3. v1rus Arcane

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    Point of view is an extremely powerful tool, and one taken for granted very often. There has been a shit ton of philosophy (some retaddred, some damn interesting) in film theory, detailing what PoV actaully is, and whats it capable of, the common agreement being that "point of view" can serve as the point of view of the extradiegetic narrator (film camera), the point of view of the intradiegetic characters and, in a broader sense, as viewpoint/standpoint (as in, Eisensteins film are from the point of view of an average commie, hating the nasty bourgeoisie). Nick Browne has an exceptional essay where he analyses "the power of the view" in John Fords "Stagecoach". In short, he concludes that how you frame and compose the shot holds great deal of information that naturally communicates with the viewer, both on the consciousness and subconsciousness levels. While someone casually seeing the scene he analyses (the lunch break, near the start of the film) would certainly understand (or rather, feel) whats happening in it, he would probably be unaware of all the subtle machinations that are at place there, that all serve to reinforce what the scene is trying to present. And we are talking about films here - you cant literally see from the characters PoV, but rather a camera angle and shot composition that enforces a characters PoV.

    This should all go double for vidya, not only cause you can literally see through the eyes of your character (or rather, yourself), but because you can connote shit ton more of information (and emotion, for that matter) than you could in third person view. For an example, if Witcher 3 was in the first person, you could (theoretically) detect, identify and analyze the trails/footprints yourself, from up close, instead of using much hated breadcrumbs Witcher Sense mechanic. In the same vain, seeing from someone eyes has bigger emotional capabilities - a banal example, but seeing a NPC crying while looking at your player character is way emotionally weaker than a NPC crying while looking directly at you - not only does the PoV of the PC matter, but so does the PoV of NPCs, and how it relates to your PCs PoV. If the dialogues are in first person, you can notice subtle changes in the NPC you are talking with - how he avoids making eye contact, stares at you, shifts his view at specific talking points etc., without the need for [PERCEPTION] marker in dialogue options. (Some of the crowd over here might frown upon this, since this stuff is dependent on players perception, not the PCs, but thats not the point atm. Besides, if you are playing dumb ogre with 3 INT, you, as a player, will certainly think of better battle tactics than him for instance, and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. Sure, you could avoid using those, and intentionally role-play a retard, but so you can ignore the fact that you know that the NPC is lying you, since the PC probably wouldnt.)

    I'm not saying any of this shit is standard in fpp games, or that its going to happen in Cyberpunk, but that theoretically, fpp has such, and even broader, capabilities. There is also the question of framing and shot composition, with fpp allowing way broader framing capabilities (you can intuitivley look at the sky, message on the wall or ground for instance) and shot composition is unrestricted (you dont have a character blocking part of the shot 100% of time), but I think this aspect is way less important than the one i tried to illustrate above.

    tl;dr - FPP has way broader and powerful capability "showing you" something, as opposed to "telling you" - you dont need extradiegetic elements (interface, popup windows) telling you there is a little strange mark on the wall, since you can see it for yourself. Thus, its more capable of intradiegetic means of communication (beside the literal PoV intradiagetic, instead of extradiegetic), which means camera immerses you into intradiagetic world better than TPP camera does.
     
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  4. Mr. Hiver Learned

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    It doesnt define it, but specific PoVs go along and strengthen or dellute some core features of games across spectrum of RPGs.

    The true RPGs which are based and built around fundamental defining RPG feature: Limits on gameplay options imposed by character abilities (usually skills, attributes, perks and traits, etc) that the player cannot directly override but can and must shape and evolve through gameplay to succeed - are strengthened by removed distant camera pov as it increases the fundamental feature of playing through character and his abiltiies you cannot override with your own skills.

    That is exactly why true RPGs have Cavelier oblique or "isometric" poV.

    The more towards action - player skills importance side of the RPG spectrum you move the design - the closer the camera gets. As is bloody obvious.

    And then you end up at the far edge of great RPG spectrum and fall off it into FP shooters and other types of games because you didnt see the edge from that box on your head.


    The movies are not done in FP, for precisely that reason, moron.
    And so you yourself nicely prove that FP pov lowers or even removes the character pov.

    Instead, it only superficially increases your own pov, not the characters.
    But it actually limits it in various ways since its a limited distortion of realistic FP.

    Bullshit.
    All that would do is make majority of players miss majority of clues and force everyone to play with their nose stuck to the ground. What an idiotic idea...

    Complete nonsense. We react to other people emotional distress and how well is that done, written, presented, not the upclose pov.


    I want a single example of the game where we actually had conversations like that.
    Name a single fucking one.

    If you are playing a dumb ogre with 3 int, whatever you try to make him do in combat - he still wont be able to do if his other combat skills dont allow it. And thats why an RPG is a motherfuking RPG.

    The player controls the strategy and meta options, but cannot override limits imposed by character abilities.
     
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  5. v1rus Arcane

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    I absolutely agree on that. FPP has its advantages, TPP has its advantages, CDPR chose one of those, and now bunch of fellas are crying, for some spoiled, bratish reasons. Its like with the "TEH THRILLER IZ TOO BR8. THUS NOT MUH CYB3RP4NK!11!!!" crowd - they are crying like little bitches, for some completely arbitrary preference.

    Its their game, they choose the elements - and they chose it to be played from FPP, in a Barbie colorful world. And both of those are completely irrelevant, especially for now, since neither the perspective nor the visual identity are what make games good, its what you do with those.

    Is the game gonna be good? I have no fuckign idea, but neither does anyone else. I certainly hope it will, but thats irrelevant.
     
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  6. Shilandra Learned

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    Okay. I think I understand more now. There does seem to be a little bit of an inherent clash between player skills and PC skills like you mentioned but I can see how this view can lead to overall greater player immersion.

    There is one last thing id like to discuss with you. It has to do with immersion itself, namely how do you know when you are fully immersed in a particular games experience?

    For instance, one of the reasons I always try to play priest type characters in rpgs is because not only do I like to heal and support, but its also basically a free and direct way to be instantly injected into the game's lore, divinity, mythology and world. Its very easy to immerse myself in games that allow this because my class is inherently firmly rooted in it.

    So with this in mind, and what you outlined above with how and why perspective can deeply effect immersion at what point can you know you're fully immersed? Are there diffrent levels of immersion in the first place?
     
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  7. i.Razor Learned Patron

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    I see no problem with FPP.
    Sure one hardly be able to hide behind the barrier or wall and then pop out to fire at enemies. But hey, Deus Ex was good.

    Also they're might be implementing 3d of some sort, so no TPP for you.
     
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  8. v1rus Arcane

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    It was not an idea. It was an illustration of different capabilities of FPP, as in, you could never do something like that in TPP.

    If a teary old woman is asking you (the player character) to save her child, you are going to have a stronger response if shes looking at you (the player (since you are seeing what the PC is seeing)), than if she was looking at a Player character that's in the shot. Looking at you makes it way more personal, and thus, investing. Its also a more accurate mimesis of the situation.

    I have also never mentioned any "upclose pov", by which you are probably referring to close ups. But, while kinda unrelated, ever wondered why are most of the emotion heavy scenes are filmed in close ups?


    Now, about your first point - I'm not sure what you are trying to say, so, correct me if I misunderstood you.

    Films are not in FP for number of reasons, the main one being you are not a character in film, you are watching the characters which is the crucial difference between two mediums. Also, its not you controlling the Point of View, but the director, which makes it extremely hard on the eyes. There are number of films that use first person point of view, but only for a couple of shots, for this very reason.

    You are the character in video games (or rather, a big deal of them). If thats not something you agree with it, fine, Im not willing to go into that rabbits hole atm, but you are controlling a character, trying to simulate and anticipate his reactions, thus FP gives you a more accurate (or rather, literal) presentation of whats it like seeing from your character's eyes, thus enabling you to put yourself in his position better.

    Ofc, there are games where you are/control more characters (party creation rpgs, RTS games, etc.) for which FPP obviously doesnt offer anything, while taking away a shitton.

    And in every single fps, the gunplay is a limited distortion of realistic gun shooting, duh.
     
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  9. Cadmus Arcane

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    It doesn't unless you're a retard.

    v1rus is full of shit. PoV the way he talks about it has nothing to do with games.

    This has nothing to do with anything and you only wrote it because you felt smart writing it. Games are not films or paintings and this certainly doesn't apply to the everyday game camera. It applies when a game tries to imitate a painting (Dark Souls does this sometimes when you enter a new area you are presented with a very picturesque shot but funnily enough, the PoV doesn't really do anything there either, it's more about how the image on the screen is presented not about whether or not you see your dude) or when it tries to imitate a film (in cutscenes). From the functional gameplay perspective, any framing or the position of the camera have barely any effect other than the availability of information.

    You are talking about functionality, nothing to do with any "immersion". Immersion happens in your mind and it is as possible to be immersed in Fallout 1 as in Skyrim (if you're a fuking retard). Basically, you just wasted a paragraph talking off-topic.

    FPP limits information as much as it enables it, example being TW3 which you presented yourself. If you didn!t see Gerrardo spinning around you!d have to be told how awesome a swordmaster your character is because all you could see would be the tip of your blade and the vomit on your monitor screen from the constant spinning of the camera. It's a little bit of an artistic choice, much more of a functionality choice.
     
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  10. soulburner Savant

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    The only thing I am concerned about the first person thing is LACK of head bobbing. It kills the purpose of the perspective if my point of view is just sliding through the world. A subtle view bobbing is essential for me - Quake 1, Quake 3, even Skyrim and Fallout 4 have it and it's done right. Doom 2016 doesn't and it pisses me off. Fallout New Vegas doesn't have it and it pisses me off, but I will never-ever switch to third person ;)

    I always preferred first person perspective games. Hell, even when I was little and I was playing with toy cars, I put my head in a way that let me watch through the inside of the toy. If the toy didn't have see-through glass but some black plastic instead - it was a throwaway I could barter with for something else at the kindergarten.

    I couldn't stand third person perspective in games, that's why I avoided many releases of that kind for years. I forced myself to get used to it during The Witcher 2 gameplay, I think. And still, when walking around the cities or in the fields in Witcher 3, I wish I could remove the dude covering my view and just look at stuff with "my own" eyes.


    One more thing to add to the TPP vs FPP debate. I can imagine Cyberpunk 2077 being played in VR. I cannot imagine any sort of third person game being played with VR.
     
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  11. v1rus Arcane

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    If framing and composition has a huge effect on how we perceive a film or a painting, then why it wouldnt affect vidya? Im not saying this is something which has been properly/extensively used (vidyas are quite young, and in a kind dumb state atm), I'm saying camera does have this kind of potential power, for a fact, as exampled by painting, film, photography, etc.

    It does limit information thus leading to a more accurate mimesis. You cant see someone attacking you from behind in FPP, thus its a more accurate depection of realism. You dont really need to see Gerrardo spinning and dancing to know he's a master swordsman, you need to see him cutting through shitton of nasties to posses that information.

    I also said both FPP and TPP have a different set of advantages and capabilities (in a different post tho) - you truly couldnt make Gerrardo spin in the first person, etc. I never tried to say Witcher 3 would work in FPP - i just used it as an example of a TPP game, since you know, CDPR.

    This one is sorta connected to the previous answer. Perhaps I haven chosen my words poorly, since I never tried to say TPP arent immersive (or are strictly less immersive than FPP). All I did was answer Shilandras question, underlying which "immersion machinations" are exclusive to FPP games.

    As yourself said, I was talking about functionality - which functions can FPP games use to immerse you, as opposed to TPP games.
     
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  12. Cadmus Arcane

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    Basically your possition has been that because you can see stuff directly through your characters eyes you can get better immersed. I disagree because thats not what immersion is about. My position is you can get better immersed if you dont hear an arrow in the knee storry 30 times in a row but you are presented with a believable world. An immersive world. Which is sort of the point.
     
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  13. v1rus Arcane

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    As I tried to explain above, thats not what was my position. I agree with you, completely - its the well crafted world that you immerse yourself in, not the camera, else I'd be fully immersed in, i dont know, Counter-Strike. But camera does have the power to enhance the immersion, that was my point, with FPP camera having its own set of distinct and powerful tools when compared to TPP, which was being discussed here.
     
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  14. Mr. Hiver Learned

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    It was not an idea? jesus fucking christ... what was it then, a brain fart?

    What different capabilities? Where have you ever seen anything like that? Except in your ass.

    Youre telling ME what my response will be and how stronger it will be? Internet telepathy - again?

    No, im going to have the exact same response to such a situation regardless of the PoV, and its only going to depend on how well its all written and done. While NO, the response wont be any weaker because im getting that issue presented to the character... because thats what motherfuking RPGs are supposed to be about.

    In FP action game, ill probably end up laughing at how badly it is done, how faces and expressions are overblown and fake, or maybe if its really, really good from every angle some player will be emotionally triggered enough.
    Once. Next time ill just skip through that dialogue and go get xp/money for saving the stupid kid.

    On the other hand, im my monocled kind of games, the skills of my character would alert me if its a ruse, a trick, a lie, i would be able to question the fucking old witch by choosing dialogue options that depend on my character abilities, figure out its maybe an impending ambush, or if she is lying and she ate the kid, or any other of numerous possibilities such situation may present, and suss out further leads and clues about whodoneit, where i need to go, who i need to sharply question more and so on and so on.

    Which could play out differently on subsequent tries depending on my character build.

    You see thats what limits imposed by character abilities - create.

    Im not referring to actual movie closeups, otherwise i would have said so. I presumed you meant FP pov close enough to see such details. Which would be - upclose.

    Have you ever wondered why emotion heavy scenes in movies are NOT shot from FP pov? Because you are meant to experience what other character are going through, NOT YOURSELF!
    Do i need to hammer this in more?

    Err.. no its not. Because in the medium of RPGs you are supposed to be playing a character, NOT yourself. In the action-rpg-shooter hybrids on the other hand.... which lower the character importance and increse the player importance.... FP is precisely what you get.

    Stories are also written from the perspective of other characters in majority of cases - PRECISELY BECAUSE IT ENHANCES THE CHARACTER angle and experience. Not your own.

    Isnt that amazingly telling.

    Not in true RPGs.

    Which is what we are supposedly talking about here. On this forum with a title which should be changed into FPSCodex by the looks of things.

    Are you controlling a character or yourself? Make up your mind.
    Besides, having a box on my head with the front cut out isnt really increasing my sense of anything.

    And single player true RPGs, which this game is not. You seem to have the mass market distorted opinion about what RPGs are, which isnt surprising really, but it does make you talk nonsensical bullshit.

    [/QUOTE]
    False equivalence fallacy. Duh.

    You are proselytizing how FP pov increases this or that, but it simply isnt true because it constrains, distorts and limits "your" view.

    The issue here is not realistic simulation quality, but your proclamations which are factually wrong.
     
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  15. v1rus Arcane

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    I was never talking about RPGs in specific, I was talking about vidya in general.


    My mind is all made up, as you could see if you actually tried to read my post, instead of just looking for stuff to bark at. I knew you arent going agree with "you are the character", cuz "MUH TRUE RPGZ" (and no, I've been here for too long to take that bait, we aint gonna discuss what a true rpg is), thus I provided an alternative, so as not to digress this discussion any further. And yet, you managed to do so.

    For the record, I also never said "you are playing yourself", I said you are the character. As in, you take the functions of a character, thus, you are the character.


    Yeah, as I said, not going to go into that. I talked about the effects of FPP camera on immersion, and thats all im gonna talk about today. Will gladly listen to you hurl insults at me on that topic some other day tho.



    The core argument of your thesis seems to be this

    Sure. And if you can see things from the exact PoV of that character, you can understand him, his position way better, and thus better emulate his responses. This answer goes to all your other claims i havent quoted here. In films you dont affect any actions, in games, you do. Thus, seeing the wolrd from your character eyes helps you put yourself in his position.

    Once again, read what Im posting.

    It was illustration of what FPP camera can do, and TPP cant. I wasnt saying that they should have implemented it like that, or that anyone else did, or will.

    What "what different capabilities"? Are you claiming that TPP,FPP and Isometric cameras can show you same things, in the same manner? No? Then they have different capabilities.

    Exactly like gunplay constrains, distort and limits "your" shooting. Video games are artificial, and thus, are mimicking real life (look up mimesis, and while you are at it, diegesis) thus their representations are naturally limited and distorted.
     
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  16. Kyl Von Kull Arcane

    Kyl Von Kull
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    Guys, it's not that complicated. A game where your character gets awesome ocular implants that show all sorts of cool shit, including the HUD, is a game that should probably be in first person.
     
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  17. v1rus Arcane

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    Before everything, I must underline once more what I said above - you dont immerse yourself into camera, you immerse yourself in the world, and camera is one of its tools. My previous response to you was concerning which advantages fpp camera has when it comes to immersion (which, by judging from your post, you fully understood, but I stressed it out for the sake of other posters.)

    Now, with that out of the way, Im not sure i can answer clearly, since its both a tricky question, and everyone here probably has his own definition of immersion, and what it means to him.

    I, personally, make difference between the "art immersion" and "game immersion". By "art immersion", im referring to catharsis, and the build up towards it. We all know what catharsis is (according to Aristotle catharsis is about "the provocation of fear and pity (in the viewer), thus purging him from such affects") so Im not going to go into that (tl;dr its what makes art awesome - that moment you stop existing, that awe that overwhelms you, while stare at the painting, film, vidya w/e).

    Second one concerns how much you, the player, is immersed in the game world. While these two are often intertwined, you can try and separate them. Now, I presume you were referring to the second one, game immersion. And to that, I have no clear answer. I'd say there def are levels of immersion, depending on how "alive" the game world feels, but how does the end result of full immersion look like? No idea. I'd say you are fully immersed when you stop thinking of NPCs as bunch of pixels, and start thinking of them as people, but i cant claim that for sure, since i havent put that much thought into it. Immersion, in the end, def is (as its name says) feeling as part of the game world - the state of being immersed in an artificial world.
     
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  18. Rinslin Merwind Educated

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    All normal people understand this, unfortunately some people too stubborn to understand that in world of eye implants and extended reality spine of your character is most boring and not important shit in existence.
     
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  19. Bohr Liturgist

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    Good thread, just missing a certain perspective:

    Lady Error
     
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  20. Shadenuat Arcane

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    Suddenly stats chargen and different damage types. That's already more advanced than I would expect from even this studio for a modern rpg.

    Hype levels slowly going from negative -100 to -50.
     
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  21. lukaszek Arcane

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    dont worry, cdpr got it covered and they read this forum so they know how important RNG is.

    and morrowind for that matter.

    so... now you know what to expect :happytrollboy:
     
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  22. Zeriel Arcane

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    It worked in Hexen.
     
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  23. v1rus Arcane

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    I never said there was a game like that - ofc there hasnt, first of all, because of technical limitations we had till recently (kinda hard to show someone rolling his eyes, if the eyes are composed of two fucking pixels).

    What I did say was that it would be possible to make a game along those lines, if you were using FPP. Could you do so now? Maybe. Will you be able to do so in future? Most certainly. Will anyone do it? Probably, sooner or later.

    The thing is, you seem to fail to understand that I'm talking about theoretical capabilities of games, or to be more precise, first person camera. Im talking about what games can do, once the medium starts truly exploring itself, and all of its capabilities with maturity. Dont forgit, vidya are still very young.

    But by controlling strategy and meta options, you did override the capabilities of character abilities, cause dumb ogre knows only how to "ME SMASH" because of his 3 int, and you, the player, certainly perceive more complex tactics no matter how intelligent you are. You can ignore what you perceived and act like an idiot in order to roleplay, in the same vein you can ignore subtle NPC cues in my "UberUltraCool TM" dialogue system.

    And I already wrote this exact same thing in the part of the post you quoted. Read what I'm writing, not what you want to read.
     
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  24. Shilandra Learned

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    Thank you. I think I understand what you mean about immersion having diffrent layers and meaning diffrent thjngs to diffrent people. I think what you mentioned about the world and NPCs is a good metric to go by too. If a game can get you to wholly buy into a world and its inhabitants like that then it can be presumed to be at least somewhat immersive.

    And with all of this discussion and the help understanding what diffrent perspectives can bring to the table I think ill just kinda chill back and see what CDPR plans to do with their game. They did say they're making a FPRPG. Ill hope they live up to that statement and see how they use FPP as a tool to help immersion while still maintaining a solid RPG core that hopefully wont be overrun by shooter elements. Id very much like to see how they handle the player skill vs PC skill clash that you broight up. Managing that could make or break the game for people invested in those elements.
     
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  25. HeatEXTEND Arbiter

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    Sure, but there's something just fun about reading and letting your mind work around the graphics. A game with nice descriptions etc. always immerses me way more than "realistic" GFX.
     
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