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Former WoW Dev: "I think we killed a genre."

Discussion in 'MMO(RP)G / Online Discussion' started by Infinitron, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/7540/Mark-Kern-Have-MMOs-Become-Too-Easy.html

     
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  2. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Another good article: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-04-have-traditional-mmos-had-their-time

     
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  3. Humanity has risen! Arcane Patron Repressed Homosexual

    Humanity has risen!
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    Screw that guy
     
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  4. circ Arcane

    circ
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    No shit.
     
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  5. Indranys Savant

    Indranys
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    "I think we killed a genre."

    MMO.

    And nothing of value was lost. :roll:
     
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  6. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    HHR beat me to it

     
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  7. Destroid Arcane

    Destroid
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    Eve still going strong. Even though MMOs are not my preference, Eve retains a lot of what makes it an interesting style of game.
     
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  8. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker

    Mmm I'm not sure the "level scaling is evil" mantra holds for MMOs
     
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  9. Delterius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Delterius
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    Wish I still played WoW, I'd probably be able to find butthurt somewhere. Though, by now, I think this is the consensus. There are still a lot of things in WoW, the so called endgame, where only a few people truly excel and even challenge global consensus on classes and builds; But the other 95% of the gameworld is a plastic theme park.

    Not as much as you'd think because, you guessed it, WoW linearized the traditional sandbox experience. But there's something else that happened as the gameworld grew and the focus shifted towards the endgame: the leveling experience was scaled back in difficulty circa BC.

    Ironically, the game's longevity kept Blizzard from demanding player parties in a MMO. And paradoxically, the increased popularity (and the subsequent shift towards younger, less 'mature' and older more 'casual' generations) diminished the social aspect: you no longer need to interact with the gameworld in order to reach your objectives, much build large guilds to tackle the greatest challenges.
     
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  10. Mangoose Arcane Patron

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    All you need is Eve Online with better gameplay on the basic level.
     
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  11. Night Goat The Immovable Autism Patron No Fun Allowed

    Night Goat
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    Mark Kern: "I killed MMOs, so buy my new MMO!"

    I think he gives himself too much credit. WoW didn't kill MMOs, but it did stunt their progress for a few years, as everyone just cloned WoW to try for a piece of that pie. Now that developers are starting to innovate again, I think we could see a renaissance in the genre. On the other hand, MMOs take a lot of money to create, and anything that costs a lot of money will be dumbed down for the mongoloid hordes. I guess we shall see.
    I daresay that level scaling isn't necessarily evil, even in single-player games. The problem with games like Oblivion is that there's no reason to gain levels, because the enemies will always be the same level as the player. In GW2, the enemy levels don't scale - only the players' do, and they only scale downwards. The result is that you can't expect to survive in areas you're underleveled for, but you can go to areas you're slightly overleveled for and not have it be a complete waste of time.
     
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  12. Machocruz Arcane

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    Standard MMO is too safe, too structured. I didn't play Ultima Online, but what I've read makes it seem like the Wild West, a living, chaotic world. EVE is the only 'frontier' MMO left it seems.
     
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  13. markec Twitterbot Patron

    markec
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    Codex 2012 Dead State Project: Eternity Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    MMORPGs are dying not because WoW killed the genre but because almost all of them are shit.
     
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  14. thesoup Arcane

    thesoup
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    Fixed.
     
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  15. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    I did play UO and I can safely say good riddance. A theme park is infinitely preferable to an Old Boys' Club.
     
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  16. Humanity has risen! Arcane Patron Repressed Homosexual

    Humanity has risen!
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    What exactly is the definition of a theme park MMO and what are its main characteristics?
     
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  17. Cool name Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Cool name
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    A theme park MMOs is basically every MMO out there today. They are 'driven' experiences where you have a clear path to follow from start to finish. Instead of, say, fighting over territory in Realm vs Realm PvP or whatever you do badly written quests in a linear fashion. Everyone who did came before you had the same experience as you do. Everyone who will come after you will have the same experience you did leaving aside expansions and such. There is no emergent gameplay, there is no a world with which you interact to shape (through socialization, guilds, territory control, Realm vs Realm, etc). A very controlled, safe, friendly enviroment with emphasis on PvE and 'casual' gameplay. I.E: You do log an hour a day, play for a while, then leave. There is no commitment and there is little pressure, and most of the gameplay is following the path the designers made for you and grinding for stuffies.

    Is the very opposite is the 'other' kind of experience which is guided mostly by player interaction and game mechanics instead of 'plot.' You do explore, you do PvP, you make your own way through the game without guidance nor hand holding. My favorite element of those games I did play was Realm vs Realm and Guild vs Guild territory control PvP. That shit was just crazy. The stories grew out by themselves by the interaction of players, guilds, and realms. You make friends not because 'the grind becomes boring without chat' but because that time you were soloing two players of an opposite faction in your pure healer in a Realm vs Realm and some random dude came out of nowhere and saved your ass, so for that battle you became his healbot and began grouping together from then on. Or you and your party ambushed a high level Elite player of an opposite faction who was alone and she did kick your party's ass all by herself so you kind of become obsessed with defeating HER AND ONLY HER in a 1on1 duel and you start looking for her in battles to learn how she plays, how is she build, what mistakes she did make. Or several guilds, let's say A B and C, team up to conquer a territory from an enemy realm but one of those guilds, let's say A, has a secret alliance with a guild of the opposite realm, let's say D, who is 'enemy' of the guild that does control that territory, let's say E, so A retreats halfway through the battle with E so that B and C start getting wore down while still winning, then D attacks B holdings by surprise. B has to leave in a hurry to protect it's own territory, A waits a little bit so that C is wore down and then rejoins the battle against E so that they can be sure to take the territory for itself instead of having to share with B and C, and E did manage to weaken D as well and maybe conquer B territory for itself. Or you are in a small guild who somehow manages to capture a small out of the way territory but now must start playing the politic and alliance game to ensure you will have allies to help you when big guilds of another realm come to you because your holdings seem to be 'easy pickings,' but some of the guilds in your own side actually want you to lose the holding so that they can then go and conquer it themselves so it is all backstabby and sneaky and very dirty. That kind of stuff can't be compared to a 'theme park' experience. Is just people being people within the context and rules of the world they are in, which means it always develops into a very Romance of the Three Kingdoms type of situation. :P
     
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  18. Mastermind Arcane Patron Bethestard

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  19. baturinsky Arcane

    baturinsky
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    It's "easy" to make great MMO.

    1. Provide a "sense of achievement" to a very wide auditory for a very long time, without dumbing it down to "kill rat-gain level".
    2. Make lore and story that is conveyed by gameplay, and not by wall of text.
     
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  20. e-mailio estevez Arcane

    e-mailio estevez
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    The article does make very good points. No MMO that I've played since DAoC has ever fostered the same sense of community. I think it's largely because in DAoC nothing was ever handed to you, you had to rely on your fellow realmmates cooperation to get anything done and the game didn't pull any punches.

    The best gear was made by other players (at least pre-TOA). Hitting level cap was an accomplishment that could take months and few classes could ever grind as effectively as a full group could. There were no instances, no queues and very little hand-holding to speak of. Dragons could wipe the floor with an entire realm and not every server had even managed to kill one. And so on.

    It's hard to disagree that modern MMOs seem to be more about min/maxing talent trees and filling your inventory with purples than the sense of discovery, challenge and large-scale emergent gameplay that ye olde MMOs used to offer. The guy's right in that regard. Every genre of games out there has seen its share of decline, though, so if WoW hadn't ushered it in it could've just as easily been something else.
     
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  21. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    I can agree with Vaarna's distaste for an "Old Boys Club", but I also am not a fan of recycled pabulum stuck on rails. Games like that are only truly interesting when you're breaking them. Hell, games, period, are only interesting when you're breaking them.
     
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  22. Gurkog Erudite

    Gurkog
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    That kind of stuff happened to me quite regularly in DAoC. Good times! That game was so awesome for the first few years, but I doubt anything will be like it again.
     
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  23. Zep Zepo Titties and Beer Patron Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual

    Zep Zepo
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    Did early UO even have quests? I don't remember any. It was pretty much a player run world and economy.

    I had the most fun during the BETA..char wipe..Guild would chop chop chop trees, craft craft craft axes...sell axes..guild buy boat, sail to New Magincia (No Moongate to there in the early days as I recall)...Claim it as our own and kill anyone who thought otherwise.

    UO was pretty hardcore in the early days until whoever came along and pussified it.

    Zep--
     
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