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Fuck those stupid levels!

Discussion in 'CD Projekt Red' started by Stelcio, Jun 12, 2015.

  1. Stelcio Savant

    Stelcio
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    I just got my hands on my new PC and finally able to run Witcher 3...

    JESUS FUCK, this is ridiculous! Some fucking lousy harbor thug is nearly invincible to razosharp blade of superagile mutant bred to kill just because he's few levels higher.

    I knew the game is built like that beforehand but I thought I wouldn't mind. Now I do mind, because this open world gameplay teases you to explore it just to say "fuck you, you're now in higher level area and every fucking beggar will rape your pretty witcher ass here, so be a good boy and go back to where your masters decided you should be for next x hours".

    What's the point? Why not just story lock access to some areas? Why give tools to explore the world on your own and then put almost unbeatable (and certainly frustratingly boring) obstacles to force the player to follow predesigned path?

    But most importantly - is there a fix for this? Any mod?
     
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  2. made Arcane

    made
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    Yeah, uninstall.exe and skyrim.torrent
     
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  3. commie The Last Marxist Patron

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    Fixed for retard scaling to make OP happy.

    :smug:
     
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  4. Levels are just lazy design, wait till you encounter level 22 wolves :M
     
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  5. Stelcio Savant

    Stelcio
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    I see you are as retarded, as CDPR.

    There are levels done right and levels done wrong, you know.

    Levels done right: Gothic

    Levels done wrong: World of Warcraft
     
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  6. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    Someone's bound to release a mod that removes the damage resistance boost from enemies 5+ levels above you... eventually.

    TW3 has a few other problems regarding the level gating as well. The fact that it even needs to have a floating level number above enemies tells a lot, as that's something you should be able to estimate in other ways, like how mean and big the monster looks or how thick an armor a guy has. Hell, they could've just put some kind of an estimation of each monster type's level into the bestiary, if they really felt it was necessary, as long as they kept each monster type on the relatively same level (except for high-level variations of the same enemies, like devourers). Now you may encounter drowners that are either pushovers or death incarnates, or shirtless bandits with wooden clubs that can take more damage than rock trolls and hit harder than cyclopes, which just means that you'll be paying more attention to the number than anything else. The recommended level of quests is also directly related to the level of the enemies the quest contains, which leads to some quite ridiculous situations, like homeless bums being tougher than Scoia'tael commandos because the former appear in a quest that you'll get later in the game.

    I'm not sure what they really even wanted to achieve with the current system,. The insane damage resistance for high-level enemies is a rather artbitrary mechanic that basically tells you that there's something wrong about the character system, that without such safeguards in place the player might somehow break the game by being able to mow down enemies that are 10-20 levels above him. It's a bit questionable why they wanted to employ such a mechanic in the first place: The setting doesn't require it, because there are no areas that definitely should be inaccessibe for low-level characters, and all plot-critical areas near the endgame are locked by other means. A lot of the high-level content takes place in the early-game areas and just stays in your quest journal for a hundred hours or so, and being able to finally tackle it is relieving rather than rewarding. It of course doesn't exactly reinforce the idea of Geralt being a master monster slayer. The story is written in a way that allows you to do stuff out of order (the first act essentially follows a BioWare structure), yet that's not really an option because of level gating. Ironically it also makes it a lot less exciting to face high-level monsters, as even though it is possible and rather satisfying to take them down, it's still too much work to be something you'd do regularly. I reached a point where everything that was five levels or less above me felt too easy, but it wasn't really appealing to do any higher-level quests either because of the bullshit mechanics in place.

    All in all, it's a completely unnecessary and rather poorly executed mechanic that could've been either left out altogether, as the game already has a pretty steep power curve that makes levelling worth it, or replaced with a no-bullshit damage threshold mechanic that would allow you to have fixed stats for all enemies in the game and still keep some of them effectively unbeatable for low-level characters.
     
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  7. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Some enemies simply get different levels right? I've seen level 4 drowners (normal) to level 10 ones, for example. So yeah, they'd have to redo enemy placement completely. I wish they did, though, because it's more than possible without changing anything else. As long as the player could tell that this was an early game (level 1-10) enemy, mid-game (level 11-20) or endgame (20+), it would give them enough information that they are able to walk into a reasonable playing field. And within that they would soon learn that wolves are less powerful than wargs, drowners are relatively easy prey but you should watch out if you see a water hag, etc.

    The good part is that enemies do have enough differentiation in abilities and behaviour that you do pay attention when there's a human with a shield or a grouop of humans with archers at the back, or if you see the wraiths early game, etc. It's a pity that having done all that hard work, they actively encourage players to not even look at what they're fighting, only look at the big numbers above their heads.

    I've been trying regularly to fight above my level this time on Death March, and it's fun - but I tend to go for ~3 levels above, so that I don't get into the whole skull/DR problem. Did they want to just make sure to keep balance or something? But isn't loot level scaled, and XP gain doesn't inflate over levels very much?
     
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  8. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

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    I've seen level 22 Ghouls, level 23 bandits and so on, and I call bullshit on this system. Overleveled trash mobs is lazy design. If the ghoul-infested town was supposed to be "high level only" then SCRAP THE FUCKING GHOULS and ADD some other badass, scary monster.

    Bandits in Novigrad's weaponsmith quest share the same problem. Getting one shot by a level 28 bandit thug after mowing down a different group of thugs on the same map is REALLY silly. It's like the low level bandits were calling their high level bros for help and they were like "nope, sorry bro, level gating this quest. Can't help you".

    I like the fact that enemies won't scale to accommodate "muh exploratiun!!!", but I feel like encounter design would have benefited from more variety and less "copy-paste-and-level-up". That shit reminds me of Diablo. But at least Diablo had the decency to pallet-swap their copy-pasted monsters to provide some explanation as to why they are stronger. "These guys aren't regullar Fallens, they are YELLOW fallens, therefore, moar stronk".
     
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  9. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    The funny thing is that there is a more powerful monster in that quest already, although it is optional. The quest just has to have level 20+ necrophages because that's the set level for the quest, even though some basic level 2 ghouls would've fit it just as well and made more sense in the setting.
     
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  10. Stelcio Savant

    Stelcio
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    Except they wouldn't because of retarded damage resistance. If you're level 20, level 2 ghouls won't do you any harm. The most obvious answer is flattening health- and damage-per-level to make level 2 any threat to level 20 Geralt, even if in large groups only (preferably even).

    Devs tend to forget what levels were created for - they ment to reflect the overall experience, strength and skill of character, so high level characters should always be formidable opponents and major figures, not invincible bums. High level thrash mobs are a creation of MMO and alike games, where this makes sense, because those games are all about endgame content, where when you reach it, you don't level at all - they're basically levelless class-based games and level progression is just timegate to endgame content. Somebody should explain this to CDPR, because they blindly copy-pasted this design to their single-player story-driven RPG, which should be all about progression content, not endgame content. Those wannabes don't have a clue about designing RPGs. Figures - they've done 3 different games under same name instead of 3 parts of one game, so they're clearly lost, changing their desing philosophy game to game (or, more likely, changing games they're mindlessly copying ATM).

    Those multi-zone quests are just a proof that the mechanics were implemented without any consideration to world and story design - just like copy-pasted, mindlessly slapped mechanics would. Too bad, because the world and story design is superb as far as I am in the game. And too bad, because in previous games at least mechanics didn't stand in a way to enjoy those things, because the plot was more linear and streamlined - so it's a decline compared to previous games and such a wasted potential.
     
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  11. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    And why exactly should a Witcher game with possible exception of 1 even have fucking levels?
    You are playing as Geralt, a witcher of rather substantial renown. 1 might have had levels because durr amnesia, but surely the protagonist has made up for this initial setback - even if he did not regain conscious memories the muscle memory works differently.
    Additionally, typical level centric approach is anti-thetical to any reasonable setting the setting where pre-amnesia Geralt got offed by some peasant derpwad wielding pitchfork.
    At best you should be able to learn/re-learn particular abilities in particular circumstances (pre-amnesia Geralt knew a little bit of magic more sophisticated than witcher signs, for example) and that's it.

    Moreover, 2 and I presume 3 were only made much worse by level mechanics conferring bloat, loot inflation (ridiculous in 2) and all sorts of shit.
    If you want to gate content with monsters then you can, for example make learning particular monster lore or killing a number of them requirement for being able to defend from their special attacks (as in otherwise the attacks are always effective and hit for maximum effect if they physically reach you).

    :salute:
    That's the most infuriating thing about CDPR - they copy the most retarded design decisions out of often shoddy games into perfectly good ones that just don't need any of that shit - see TW2 and QTEs - and fail to carry over the good stuff (like TW1 alchemy).
     
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  12. commie The Last Marxist Patron

    commie
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    There's 4 million + reasons that say that CDPR seems to have copied the 'right' things.

    Hey it works for Fargo to suggest he only made shit to stay afloat and thus create the games he REALLY wanted to so cut CDPR some slack when they almost went bust due to the first 'good' Twitcher.

    I don't even know what you guys expected from a mainstream developer..it's not like CDPR was churning out isometric TB games or Dark Souls style ARPG's before this. They always wanted to go the Bioware/Beth route to glory and profits.

    Worst comes to worst, I'd like CDPR to at least stay as the Polish Bioware/Bethesda, showing them up and eating into their profits.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2015
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  13. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    Yes, one of the reasons why the current system sucks is that only the encounters that are near your level feel good, as low-level mobs can't even scratch you whereas high-level mobs are nearly immune to your sword blows. That'd probably be the case anyway with the current power curve, but the DR system makes it even more obvious. Low-level enemies do feel notably more threatening on Death March, though, as for example drowners and alghouls can deal some pretty heavy damage even after you outlevel them, whereas on Blood & Broken Bones I remember a bunch of level 6 rotfiends backstabbing my level 14 Geralt several times without so much as making a dent in his health bar.

    That's hardly a very good explanation for the damage resistance bloat considering that CDPR went out of their way to create a system that was the antithesis of BioWare/Bethesda design and their level scaling, making sure that the player can't go everywhere or defeat everything right from the start. The safest, most accessible route would've been to leave the "skull mobs" out altogether, yet they really felt those needed to be in the game for some reason.
     
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  14. Ulminati Kamelåså! Patron

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    Don't worry a mutant murderbeast of death and despair will die in 1-2 hits when it's a level lower than you.
     
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  15. cvv Arcane Patron

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    Bloody this. Even the relatively indie, PC exclusive TW1 was chock full of awesome - intros, cutscenes, sex cards and all that. CDPR always came across as a decidedly mainstream dev, albeit a bit cooler and mature than their juvenile Kwan counterparts.
     
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  16. rezaf Savant

    rezaf
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    I've come to accept the scaling in TW3 as more of a mechanism that tells me which quests and areas to tackle in which order - the only way for me not to get mad at such retarded mechanic.
    HOWEVER, I have to ask the question - does the scaling even work?

    For example, what about monetary quest rewards. I travel to hell and back to avenge some dorks father, to retrieve the family heirloom or whatever, and when he says: "Here's your reward. I put in a little extra for your troubles." I just know it's going to be 20 gold. And I'm always right.
    Wtf? 20 Gold? Are you kidding me?

    On the other hand, since the very early game, when it's possible to negotiate for a reward, it's always going to be 200ish. If I try to ask for considerably more, annoyance shoots through the sky, and the range itself hasn't budged one bit, or so it seems. But my weapons probably take more damage in the process of pursuing some of these quests than the reward is going to cover.

    It's not not a gamebreaker for me since I usually play goody twoshoes anyway, so I can rationalize it as "a good deed", but it's kinda ridiculous nonetheless.
     
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  17. theSavant Self-Ejected

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    No.
     
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  18. TheHeroOfTime Arcane

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    Honestly I prefer a game that leaves me to explore a open world, checking what things and what monsters can I defeat and whose not than taking me by the hand to guide me in a linear storyline or with storylocking some places. I love when I find a draconian thing with a red skull over its head and I make Geralt run like a bitch. I think they used the leveled mobs to keep them some interesting to fight while Geralt gets stronger with each level and new gear, and for limiting the zones that you can explore of course.
     
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  19. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

    Eyestabber
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    Rubbish.

    A big red skull is simply a dumbed down form of conveying to the player "you can't beat this", which is further enforced by the retarded damage reduction red skull enemies get. Witcher 1 got the progression part right: stronger monsters are actually different species, so if you find a group of Graveirs, RUN LIKE HELL. But that game was a PC exclusive. A system like that would never work on a multiplatform release because consoletards will NEVER be bothered to read the fucking bestiary.
     
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  20. MicoSelva Prestigious Gentleman Don't call Abigail Patron

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    This level system seems done as if they wanted that Gothic "fuck, I just got OWNED" feel to some encounters but did not know how to create a competent character system with a good power-curve, and just went the easiest route possible (you are five levels below? well, TOO BAD"). Or maybe as if they wanted to streamline this shit as much as possible, so casual players only need to track one number (level), and all other stats are basically optional "customizing" (improving skills sure feels like this).
     
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  21. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    I don't think the current system was necessarily dumbed-down on purpose, more likely CDPR just didn't have a clue on how to pull it off properly. It's like they wanted to make a statement against level-scaling and just ended up doing it in the most hamfisted way possible. The damage reduction and the damage boost of high level enemies are the biggest problems for me, as without them you could probably remove the visible levels and skulls entirely, and you could have more interesting fights against high-level enemies, as there comes a point when an enemy 5 levels above you is too easy and an enemy 6+ levels above you is usually just not worth the trouble. The levels of human enemies are still too random and some monsters' level ranges are too wide (although you can see a visible difference between a high-level drowner and a low-level one, for instance), but the DR system just makes these issues more obvious. The crazy power curve doesn't exactly help either.

    The DR system does lead to some interesting fights here and there, mostly against lone enemies, but in many cases it just ruins what could probably be an interesting fight otherwise. I just started a new playthrough and had a really intense fight at level 3 against a level 13 alghoul, where I had to rely on critical effects like poison to take its health bar down and instantly hit it with Axii when it started to regenerate. Wasn't even that long a fight, over in a couple of minutes, but it was tough because it didn't leave much room for mistakes. Then I stumbled upon a level 9 bandit camp (and a level 9 ghoul nest, and another level 9 ghoul nest...) and just decided to leave and come back five minutes later after hitting level 4 because it simply wasn't worth the effort before that, with those generic enemies one-shotting you and being able to absorb dozens of sword blows each. It was a pretty cool fight in the end, but it probably would've been even better if I could've taken the enemies on already at level 3. Kind of ruins the joy of finding some huge high-level monster when your biggest enemy isn't the monster itself but the damage reduction system.
     
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  22. TheHeroOfTime Arcane

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    In fact, the damage reduction is shit. As I said, I love when i find a stronger monster than me, but that not means that the system of this game couldn't be a lot better. There's no need of placing damage reduction as Red skull enemies. But the fact of placing enemies with different levels through the game it's not a bad thing for me. At least I think they can fix or improve this system with a patch, or in the worse case with an Enhanced edition :M
     
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  23. VentilatorOfDoom RPG Codex Staff

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  24. Raghar Arcane

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    (When you first encounter them without proper armor they are fucking brutal.)
     
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