Fucking ToEE, how does it work

[pipka]

Ever played PnP, skyway?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html

 

[Phelot]

This is what made the encounter challenging. This is what made you think out of the box. Had you been able to do "realistic" stuff you could spied through window and sent five fireballs in simultaneously reducing the encounter to ashes.

Stop fucking about, dear sirs.

You know as well as I do that "realistic" stuff is exactly what you might have done in PnP. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's an engine limitation. I also stated it didn't bother me. You said it's OK in BG to scout ahead and do AoE attacks, but you don't like that here?

 

[Grunker]

Yes, and I often did in ToEE. But there are still plenty of encounters in both BG and ToEE where you can't do it. And I'm glad. It means I can rinse-repeat tactics all the time.

Also, your comparison is a little off in the sense that I'd take ToEE's turn-based glory over the semi-what-the-hell in BG any day. A game as vast and different and BG combined with ToEE's rule-set and combat? HAEVAN.

 

[Phelot]

Yes, and I often did in ToEE. But there are still plenty of encounters in both BG and ToEE where you can't do it. And I'm glad. It means I can rinse-repeat tactics all the time.

Also, your comparison is a little off in the sense that I'd take ToEE's turn-based glory over the semi-what-the-hell in BG any day. A game as vast and different and BG combined with ToEE's rule-set and combat? HAEVAN.

I think we're missing each other. Let me put it this way:

Seemingly bumbling through a door with your entire party and starting in an awkward position is something I consider due to an engine limitation.

The Moathouse main square where brigands jump out of bushes and attack is what I consider a fun ambush. Same with the giant toads/frogs and countless others.

I'm not really criticizing, I'm simply stating that I get what Skyway is talking about, but that I don't really see it as a huge problem, just a side effect of the sort of engine the game is using.

 

[Grunker]

OK, here's what I think: yes, I think you're correct that Tower-house "ambush" was due to engine-limitations. And yes, I think that the encounter is better for it. I certainly don't think it's anything to whine over to the extend SW does. Agreed?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Then the metagamer in you will realize that you can still do the Hommlet quests, and you'll force yourself to go through all that agony simply because they're there and must be done.

Nope. There are many games where I slugged through filler shit just to get everything done. I cleared out Tarant sewers. I would go through the Clerk Ward sewers. I would do all the fetch quests in Easthaven. In numerous other games I would kill everything in my way, even if it was avoidable, just to clear stuff out.

But not Hommlet. No. That place was just too banal/shit/boring even for my completionist nature. I tried doing some of them, oh yes. I would go from house to house, seeking Job! Rumours! Bye! I would listen to the peasants' daily problems. But I couldn't do that, lest my skull would cave in. Never. Again.

 

[Grunker]

We are so alike Roxor. That's exactly how I felt doing quests for the monestary in Risen. Thanks God ToEE actually abandons that quest design fairly early on

 

[Darth Roxor]

Yup, it abandons that quest design, and replaces it with no quest design at all

 

[SCO]

The Co8 mod has a old mod integrated. That mod was called "the signpost".

It does what you'd expect: teleporting*.

So you don't really need to run around. Instead just hit 'M' go to south homlett instantly from the world map, click on the sign, click on the nearest location on the dialog that pops up**, repeat.

* real life should be so nice
** it's often faster to click north homlett to go to the temple due to it being so near that marker.

BTW, sell Lareth stuff to the vendors Gremag and whatever.

 

[King Crispy]

Some more insight from the PnP module aspect and to lend a little perspective to Skyway's "problem" ( ):

Village of Hommlett being the lead-in to ToEE was meant for beginning-level characters, yes, but remember that it was designed by Gygax himself and, as originally written, was meant to be fair, but still very challenging. The moathouse was actually meant to be the crescendo to the module and was originally intended to be well planned for, well prepared for, and quite a dangerous expedition.

I don't quite recall how played up this is in the CRPG, but rumors abounded amongst the villagers in the module about the place being haunted, occupied possibly by bandits and much worse, and not a place that should be explored by anyone but the most cautious in nature.

Lareth ("the Beautiful"), in particular, was meant for big things. Hand-picked by Lolth herself to head up the Temple's operations in this area, he was to head straight to the top if he were to be able to manage establishing the foothold of the Moathouse with success, then leading the rebuilding and reestablishing of the Temple proper if things went well. His stats in the original module were astonishingly high (I think he possessed at least two 18's, CHA being one of them, which was unheard of back in them days) and he and his henchmen were likely meant to be avoided right away by the 2nd to 3rd-level party, if they were smart.

Even some of the more mundane encounters there, such as the giant lizard, were very deadly. And the grognards would've had it no other way. I know this isn't what Skyway wants to hear, but remember in PnP that there are so many other options available to the player(s) such that a conversion to a CRPG becomes awkward and forces the player to brute-force a lot of the encounters. Does that also force the use of cheese and min-maxing and the like? I don't think so because I wasn't forced to have to do that (until the Balor) but then again it does strongly hamper the efforts of the "purist" who might want to go with the unoptimized, more traditional, RP-style party. Skyway's original party almost sounds like it might be one of those. Unless his cleric were a real meat shield, for example, I can see why that party would be hard-pressed to survive there at low levels.

So either put your big boy pants on, Skyway, and strategize your way through this, patiently, or reroll a bunch of munchkinized Supermen and hit the win button. There's really no in-between with this game.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

Read my sig down below.
Source:http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/nwn2-advice.20041/page-4

 

[Roguey]

Yup, it abandons that quest design, and replaces it with no quest design at all

The temple faction-interplay is actually pretty well done, of course you miss out on it entirely if you don't put on the robes (or a paladin who will fall if you do evil quests).

 

[desocupado]

2. Eh? I could have sworn there was a mouse speed setting in options, is that what you mean?

No, I mean that mouse feels like it's dragging an elephant on ice. It's horrible, and made me want stop playing because it's a chore to fucking put the cursor over anything.

 

[hiver]

Bookmarking this thread in case... need arises. Ever again.

 

[MetalCraze]

What Grunker means by "thinking out of the box" is hitting save/load until all enemies are dead and your guys aren't.

Flanking the enemy by using stealthy rogues, puting ranged units and mages on overwatch positions to cover your party, manoeuvering between enemy ranks is that casual "thinking in the box" that all next-gen popamole gamers love so much.

Truth is - AI in ToEE is retarded. You can easily bombard enemies inside the fog of war and they won't move. You can summon some elemental near enemies and they will give all their attention to him despite your mages bombarding them with fireballs, ice storms and shit. It seems like doing pseudo-ambushes is the only way for the game to provide teeth-grinding challenge according to designers.

Although I have to give it to them - Troika counter-balanced that summoner exploit - the game tends to often crash if you summoned someone.

The temple faction-interplay is actually pretty well done, of course you miss out on it entirely if you don't put on the robes (or a paladin who will fall if you do evil quests).

It's cool but it's too short (3 quests per any faction and you almost join evil forces).
Besides Troll chieftain demanded 1000 plat to join fire temple so I decided to wipe out the whole temple instead because I'm a lewt jew.

 

[NewFag]

I guess I had less trouble with previous IE games than most people cause I played with widescreen mods etc on my first playthroughs.

Regarding ToEE, still trying to complete my first run, Co8 6.1 without NC. Party of six at level 7 so far.
I spent some time today and trudged through Dungeon Level 2, and half of 3, and have a few questions/thoughts:
- Do spells such as "Warp Wood", "Soften Earth and Stone" etc. have any practical use? Never tried them.
- Voice acting ranges from shit to passable.
- Fragarach is overpowered to the max.
- Seems there isn't much variety of stuff to kill so far (fucking bugbears), very few caster enemies.
- Is there any place to sell items/heal in the temple? Or do I have to march back to Nulb?
- Should I murder all the high priests? Or just leave them be and continue down to level 4?
- How many endings are there? Am I near the end yet?

That is all for now.

 

[SCO]

- Do spells such as "Warp Wood", "Soften Earth and Stone" etc. have any practical use? Never tried them.

Maybe they are golem related, can't recall.

- Is there any place to sell items/heal in the temple? Or do I have to march back to Nulb?

Lareth serves this purpose in a few possible outcomes of his subplot.

- Should I murder all the high priests? Or just leave them be and continue down to level 4?

You decide really. You can avoid all combat in the temple, mix&match, trick them with the robes (including greater temple ones - special dialogs), kill them all. The temple will get alerted if you bungle on or attack or let yourself be attacked by some important npcs. This includes stuff like looking too suspicious for repeatedly freeing prisoners in sight of guards and stuff (even with robes, differing threshold i think). Supernatural or animal creatures may attack you regardless, since they don't give a damn if you're temple personnel or not.

- How many endings are there? Am I near the end yet?

The endings are "fallout-like". Of the main-main part of dealing with Zuggtmoy there are 5 main possibilities and some variations inside of them. Nothing too impressive mind you - four of them involve combat first. There are many variations dealing with the npc's that are with you at the end and survive.
There are a lot more npcs and npcs related endings than may be apparent. The restrictions to getting some of them are ... unlikely. For instance if you have meleny, she and her parents are killed later on by ochre jellies... unless you meet and kill some with her in the party.

I tried to find a listing of all these variations on the net but failed. I think they are hidden somewhere inside the dat files of the game.

 

[Darth Roxor]

The temple faction-interplay is actually pretty well done, of course you miss out on it entirely if you don't put on the robes (or a paladin who will fall if you do evil quests).

I see what you are trying to imply here, old cock, but I had no lawful good people in my party and used the robes to run around. Yet like half of the mobs of the fucking bugbears would still attack me on sight for some reason. Must be some of that lovely ToEE bugginess I've heard so much about.

And the faction interplay I've seen (although I haven't seen much given that I stopped playing, so I'm probably ronk) didn't seem too impressive. Typical "WAAAAAAAAAAH, WHY AM I NOT TEH GREATEST EVIL CLERIC DUDE, PLZ KILL OTHER CLERIC DUDES FOR ME' or something like that anyway. The fact that I can't even remember that shit clearly probably says a lot too


r00fles!

 

[Shannow]

Regarding ToEE, still trying to complete my first run, Co8 6.1 without NC. Party of six at level 7 so far.
I spent some time today and trudged through Dungeon Level 2, and half of 3, and have a few questions/thoughts:
- Voice acting ranges from shit to passable.

Some stuff was fan-VOed in Co8, but that shouldn't be in a non-NC version...*shrug*

- Seems there isn't much variety of stuff to kill so far (fucking bugbears), very few caster enemies.

There are few truly interesting encounters in the game, but you still have 2-3 before you.

- Should I murder all the high priests? Or just leave them be and continue down to level 4?

What? Do you want us to play the game for you? Do whatever you like.

- Am I near the end yet?

Yes and no. You are either very near the end or still have a few hours to go. Depends on your choices...

 

[Grunker]

What Grunker means by "thinking out of the box" is hitting save/load until all enemies are dead and your guys aren't.

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Flanking the enemy by using stealthy rogues, puting ranged units and mages on overwatch positions to cover your party, manoeuvering between enemy ranks is that casual "thinking in the box" that all next-gen popamole gamers love so much.

I wonder which RPGs you consider to have strategic worth then... none of the Codex-gems can beat ToEE in this aspect. Are you perhaps refering to NWN?

 

[SCO]

I see what you are trying to imply here, old cock, but I had no lawful good people in my party and used the robes to run around. Yet like half of the mobs of the fucking bugbears would still attack me on sight for some reason. Must be some of that lovely ToEE bugginess I've heard so much about.

The minor temples are enemies in good old D&D chaotic stupid fashion... the right robe for the right mob (and for the greater temple), though i wouldn't rule out bugs sometimes.

 

[Kalin]

No, I mean that mouse feels like it's dragging an elephant on ice. It's horrible, and made me want stop playing because it's a chore to fucking put the cursor over anything.

If you go to the options menu and change the scroll speed from 5 to 0, and then back up to 4, your mouse should behave normally. It sounds silly, but it really works.

It really does work. The scroll speed issue is a bug and that little trick tends to solve it.

 

[Joghurt]

Well I installed TOEE yesterday and went to the moathouse at lvl 2 and got my ass raped. I decided to grind a little bit random mobs because I didn't have any quests left in Hommlet and returned to the moathouse at lvl 3 and raped the shit out of everybody except the ogre. By the time I reached Lareth and his guards I was lvl 4 and basically they couldn't do shit against me.

Got a standard party consisting of Fighter with a shield, dual wielding rouge, wizard, cleric and a ranger who uses a bow.

 

[King Crispy]

See? It's not that hard. Poor Skyway. Maybe on his seventh playthrough...

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

except the ogre

Try casting 2 or 3 Rays of Enfeeblement on the Ogre.