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Google Stadia - "a game streaming service for everyone"

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by toro, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

    DalekFlay
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    No one's missing it dude, we just disagree it's insurmountable for the mainstream. Google's test run and launch was mostly remarked on as working quite well from mainstream reporters, and the same impressions have been making the rounds for Xcloud. The average Joe doesn't care about 50ms of extra latency, which is what it amounts to in tests. Would you or I care? Sure we would, especially with a mouse, but does that mean much when the vast majority of mainstream consumers think "it's fine?" No, it amounts to a hill of beans, as the saying goes. Same for people on home theater forums ranting about bitrate and compression artifacts... they care, most don't, so it doesn't matter.
     
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  2. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    If anything, the average codex user would probably find it more usable due to tending towards turn-based games. Your average gamer would probably find the latency in their call of duty game unplayable.
     
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  3. tritosine2k Liturgist

    tritosine2k
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    Latency is function of endpoint, for "thin client" - s it's necessary to stream a whole framebuffer for many reasons.
    If theres no battery and compute constraint you can stream much more interesting things and structures, for example shaded texture is just a little bit advanced than framebuffer and even by then the latency problem is mostly solved (but you get other problems because said textures - must be defined for every surface) .
     
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  4. Dexter Arcane

    Dexter
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    How quickly we forget to return to spread more of the same FUD as before... BUT MUH GOOGLE TEST RUN!
    OnLive version: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/onlive-died-today.45644/page-10#post-1209132
     
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  5. The_Sloth_Sleeps Learned

    The_Sloth_Sleeps
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    I bet even with the ridiculous pricing of Stadia, Google is operating at a huge loss.

    Now, even if Stadia were cheaper, they would not be able to sustain losses for long enough to destroy all other gaming platforms.

    Big companies DO NOT want to operate on a loss long term. Any under performing product WILL get cut. Realistically its very hard to destroy competition purely by undercutting whilst offering an inferior product.

    I mean, sure the Chinese are happy to do that, but they do it with commodity based stuff (e.g. Garlic) where the differences between commodities are negligible. To help illustrate this point look at an extreme example - INDIE GAMES! E.g. The trash ones for $1.50. Sure they are cheaper but they are not going to put AAA games out of business. The value proposition is complex and undercutting doesn't eliminate competition. It has to be like for like, or very close for that to work.
     
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  6. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

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    Some of you don't see to grasp that a couple examples from more enthusiast circles doesn't mean shit.
     
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  7. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

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    How does Google treat its various other failures? Depreciation and eventually deletion.
     
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  8. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

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    To be clear no one's saying Stadia is or even can be a success. They really fucked it up with their business model and lack of games. We're saying subscriptions are the future of everything, and yes eventually streaming, once it's pushed with the right business model and exclusives. It's depressing but it is what it is. Mainstream consumers don't give a shit about quality or ownership, only cost and convenience.
     
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  9. Melcar Arcane

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    Fuck mainstream.
     
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  10. The Decline Arcane

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    The vast majority of mainstream users play one or two online games and little else. As long as competitive gaming is a thing streaming will never completely take over.
     
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  11. J1M Arcane

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    Another problem something like Stadia faces is the advancement (or even worse, stagnation) of graphics cards, driving down hardware costs. Each year gigaflops become cheaper.

    In fact, given Onlive has been green-lit like 6 times I am surprised nobody has green-lit a thin-client phone that does its rendering server-side. :lol:
    (Probably just indicates phone hardware still has high profit margins.)
     
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  12. Decado Prestigious Gentleman Old time handsome face wrecker Patron

    Decado
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    I guess I was vague here, when I say "everyone" I don't mean Codex posters. I'm talking about the vast majority of people who don't play games but are still boosters for this shit -- generic "tech" guru types and investors. I should have been clearer on that.

    The conversations I regularly have are with these people who don't really know much about the industry, but because they know finance, or generic business, or generic tech, games are going to go down the same paths they are used to when it comes to innovation, payment models, industry consolidation, etc. What these people don't understand is that the control experience is pretty important to a lot of AAA gamers (we've done survey research on this), and gamers will spend more money and be a little inconvenienced for a better experience. Again, as a group and broadly speaking.

    I agree, of course, that grandma on her phone or PC playing solitaire couldn't give a shit. But mobile is its own universe, for now.
     
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  13. Monocause Arcane

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    They're not going to solve the latency issues in the next decade or two, and even then I'd wager that you'd still need appropriate hardware and be constrained by your physical location in order to have an acceptable experience playing streamed FPS or RTS games. The "negative latency" solution mentioned by a "Google engineer" is from a technical POV pure bullshit and even if their predictive solution went 95% correct after facing insurmountable cost and effort invested into R&D, that 5% where it's wrong would still be a hurdle pissing lots of people off.

    If this was a real idea and not a PR red herring, it was likely made by an engineer who has no clue about the broad domain of gaming and the typical use cases of gaming software and who simply transcribes solutions he knows from other domains. Well yes, a user won't even notice if Google Search throws up couple percent of weird results, or if Google Ads mistargets something. But in gaming, when you want to jump, shoot or do something, you expect it to work 100% of the time and it makes the experience ruined when it doesn't.

    On a sidenote, if it did work, it would be a marvel of a technical achievement. Gaming behavior patterns are ridiculous for prediction especially since one of the core ideas of gaming is adaptation. It's easily observable in the so-called "meta" discourse for games such as Starcraft, where certain behaviour patterns go out of fashion and new patterns emerge. One week it might be the way to go to jump like a lunatic in Call of Duty, but then players adapt to it and become proficient in headshotting jumping people, hence a more defensive attitude is taken. Using machine learning to efficeintly adapt to that kind of bullshit trends would be something to see but I'd say we have no chance of seeing that happen until we reach a time when quantum computing and full-fledged AIs take over this kind of prediction.

    What remains is still the question of whether you, as a gamer, even *want* this kind of a solution in reflex-based games, as they're a competition of skill between players. So if there's an AI trying to figure out what do you want to do and providing "assistance" - not sure if people would still feel it's a fair competition and any success you have would always be overshadowed by the accusation that the AI latency God was predicting your next move favorably for you.

    Also, a funny observation: the "negative latency" solution would also obviously need to help people with aiming efficiently in FPS games. All hail the Google Aimbot.
     
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  14. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

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    Fair points, but again I think this all takes place in a bubble. "Real gamers" talking to other "real gamers" can't understand how anyone could deal with compression artifacts and 50ms of extra latency, but meanwhile a huge chunk of Assassin's Creeds millions of customers don't give a shit. However you guys are right that local gaming isn't going to vanish for a very, very long time. I'm saying eventually someone will get it right, eventually it will start creeping in and taking over the mainstream, and eventually they will take enough market share they can start bullying us. How long that takes I'm not sure, but it's inevitable.

    Subscriptions are more the immediate danger though, and I'm talking about both. Subscriptions are taking over all the other media types so fast people's heads are still spinning. It leads to many of the same things streaming does: exclusives you can't purchase, exclusives scattered around multiple services, exclusive modes for one version or another, no ownership, no control. Not many will care though. It's been embraced with movies, shows and music, there's zero reason to think it won't be embraced with games as soon as someone does it really well.
     
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  15. Ismaul Citizen First Class #3333 Patron

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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
    If it can't be removed from an inventory, material or virtual, it simply doesn't exist.
     
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  16. kaisergeddon Learned Patron

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    To follow up on what Monocause said, I can't believe they put Samurai Shodown on this device. I mean a fighting game, really? How do you even decipher it as a meaningful experience through streaming? I'd say the whole platform should be taken out back and shot, but it's Google, so time will take care of that.
     
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  17. Valky Arcane Manlet

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    A bit too late to worry about subscriptions when you people have been buying from steam for a decade. This has happened and is already the norm.
     
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  18. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

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    Yes, technically a Steam purchase is a license added to a free subscription, so is a "DRM free" GOG purchase technically... hell a disc was technically a license... but how things actually play out matters. You pay once, and have endless access as long as the service/disc exists. This is demonstrably different from paying monthly for continued access, losing access as soon as you stop, with no option to pay once and have permanent access. I'm as against DRM as anyone... I get the "you opened this door!" line... but they are different levels of bad.
     
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  19. Valky Arcane Manlet

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    How things actually played out is that DRM free games are copies that I have unrestricted freedom to use at my full control for playing, while your steam games are encrypted to brick themselves and not run unless you have a third party program running at all times to unlock it. I.E. you are totally dependent on steam in order to use your software whereas my drm free copies backed up on my external are self sufficient.
     
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  20. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

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    No shit, and I buy every game I can on GOG for this reason. However it's still a different thing, and you ignored that entirely.
     
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  21. Valky Arcane Manlet

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    It is equal to a subscription. The only correct option for drm exclusive games it to wholly pirate them, never to purchase a drm exclusive version.
     
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  22. J_C One Bit Studio Patron Developer

    J_C
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    You really don't understand the difference between the subscripton of Google and buying on Steam or you are just playing dumb?
     
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  23. baud Liturgist Patron

    baud
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    I think he's equating how both (Steam with DRM and Stadia) only give the buyer a licence to play a game that, once revoked, prevent access to the game; whereas when buying a DRM-free game, you get the licence to download and play the game even if the licence is revoked.
     
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  24. J_C One Bit Studio Patron Developer

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    I get what he is thinking but there is still a fundamental difference between subscribing to a license, and buying a license.
     
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  25. Valky Arcane Manlet

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    The difference is that you pay less for steam exclusives and you get to keep a DRM digital paperweight on your computer if steam wants to shut you down. (Versus not even getting a useless encrypted game with the cloud only stadia)
     
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