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Grimoire Class Discussion/Beginner's Tips

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,232
Location
Ingrija
@YES
Giant Berserker - can get bonus points, has good attributes, some equipment limitation, option to become pirate, Saurian is probably better as a pure berserker, but pirate seems impossible for them.

Not at all. Saurian needs 70 points to match pirate stats, and you can safely spend the entirety of your bonus roll to cover up to the half of it. Giant, in fact, needs 80.

The cleric is the choice I'm struggling with the most. Bard and Templar get cleric spells on Lvl 3 and the all-important cure disease and cure poison is learned by the Sage on Lvl 4 as well.
So, in the early levels, I have Sage and Thaumaturge who can take care of wounds and later on the Templar and Bard can handle it. Is there really a place for the cleric?
I've been thinking about replacing it with a wolfin ranger or a naga thief, who'll later become an assassin.

Good thinking. Have a wolfin ranger instead. That technically can relieve you of need for a dedicated thaumaturge, whom you can replace with another asskicker.

Oh, and never take drow spellcasters. Awful mana regen rate.
 

osefmarcher

Literate
Joined
Aug 5, 2017
Messages
36
What is the preferred class for each race? Think somebody said that for the Durendil race the preferred class is templar but what are the others?

First you need to know the stats bonus multiplier wich each race/class (not sure if the bonuses applies also to stats gain from level up) : http://www.mediafire.com/file/v96h0l5e1zxptbz/rolls.rtf (view in landscape mode)

Then you need to take into account the mana regeneration for mages :

Made some tests about stats while waiting for manual (might not be 100% accurate) :

DEV = +mana
CON = +vitality

hp is class based
hp regen is fixed at 10% per current hp (not max hp), might be a race ticking rate speed, but almost not noticable (feyfolk seems to regen slower)
mana regen is race based, tick faster for certains races : dwarf/wolfin(ultra mega fast lol)>>>>>>>>>>aeob/durendil/saurian>giant/vamphyr/faefolk(fast)>>>>>>>>human/drow(most horrible)
vit regen is also race based, but not really important it's fast enough as it is, faefolk (ultra fast)>>>>>>>durendil>drow>human/wolfin>dwarf>>giant/drake


So for berserk, you have many choices, Saurian is a pretty good choice (i rolled one with 32hp + attributes points). Giant is bad choice because of equipment.
For ranger it's no brainer Wolfin ( ranger is thaumarge fighter)
For thief any choice (depends if you want later to switch to assassin or pirate, but i'm not fan of this), double dagger (main gauche)
For sage Aeorb, you can equip music instruments (pretty op), you can make Wolfin for fast mana regen also requires 25+ on roll
For necro fae or vamphyr (they can get special equipment i read, like drow), mana regen will not be the best but, as a necro you'll get drain mana spell


Durendil templar is pretty bad tbh, you can only wear small weapons.
If you want to make a Thaumaturge, make a barrower or wolfin, but Thaumaturge (aka druid) is pointless, better make a ranger, they have acces to thaumaturge spells at lvl3.
 

GandGolf

Augur
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
854
Location
Rivendell
If you want to make a Thaumaturge, make a barrower or wolfin, but Thaumaturge (aka druid) is pointless, better make a ranger, they have acces to thaumaturge spells at lvl3.

Think Cleve said that the Thaumaturge can use the item workshop to merge items and that they are the only ones with that ability so they could at least be useful for that.
 

osefmarcher

Literate
Joined
Aug 5, 2017
Messages
36
Made some further tests with the skills gained per level, and it's correlated to the multiplier bonuses from each races/classes.
ie : barrower sage (0.8x multiplier) gained arround 80-100 skill points while aeorb sage (2x multiplier) gained 160-200 skill points

here is the list for the multiplier http://www.mediafire.com/file/v96h0l5e1zxptbz/rolls.rtf (view in landscape mode)

That said, for martial skills you don't care much
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
@YES
"Sage is not needed" with no explanation? Sage is often considered an essential class due to their immense versatility. With a statement like that, please explain why.

They are not needed. No explanation necessary. As for why I didn't take one - For a six man party you have metal smith with ancient customs (or whatever it is called) plus they get lethal blow. Bard gets high middle category points so can plus up their thief skills. Whereas sage gets high third category and low 1st/2nd. For a six man party I am going three melee (for various reasons, mainly I want three people with lethal blow to kill quickly and move party 2 into the party 1 slot so my bard can cc party 2 without having to change anything and always just quickly hit the battle button). Bard is my cc and thief, I think far better than sage because he is my fourth slot and can wear much more sturdy equipment and shields and get high 2nd category skill points). Then I have 2 casters. I want high damage for burning when needed, otherwise I leave them on a decent damage spell that doesn't use too much mana leaving enough for burns and not fucking with my rest rotation. I go with thaumaturge and necromancer. It seems all casters can heal early and necros get some great early spells. I go full speed in everyone but the two casters and leave bard 4 points behind my three melee.

A Sage would just weaken my party and add nothing. I cover assay, scout, and mythology with my melees. I cover all bases and have a strong party that does everything with six slots used no waste. If I wanted an npc I'd pick Junga Din as he isn't OP even a little, and I still have the 8th slot for npcs with content joining for the content.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
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Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
I don't think that attributes are more precious. For the two tanks, extra HP are more important. For the rest, extra skill points can be important too, especially for the ones who have lockpicking and assaying.

The extra hps help at the start only. Same with skills. Attributes help the whole game. It goes against everything I stand for to build a party around the game start. Speed is the game after the start and speed is an attribute. Also, almost all important skills have a spell to plus them up. Attributes are the rarest of the starting reasorces and the only resource that is useful the whole game. On my last level up for my berserker he got 18 hps. My three melee guys have retarded hps at around 8th level, triple what the others have at least. Adding bonus to hps is a huge waste. Same with skills in my opinion.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Yeah, Cleric really hasn't been useful for me in levels 1-5, because you find plenty of curative items in the early areas to tide you by until you can get a Ranger or Bard up to level 3.

I somehow rolled a Durendil Templar while trying to test a Durendil Necro. Class seems to start with a Holy Symbol (which does...?) and a big fat shield, and slightly higher skill points? How do they work?
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
For a six man party you have metal smith with ancient customs (or whatever it is called) plus they get lethal blow. .

Watch out, Metalsmith has a pretty low hp pool, like thief.

I get 10+ with him consistently. Or at least that is the minimum I'll accept while reloading for the high skill gain on level up.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,232
Location
Ingrija
Thanks for the info. What about sauron? Or, what race has good hth and no equipment limitations?

Saurians seem to have no limitations, at least I haven't seen any. Dwarves and wolfin too.

Also, if making durendil templar, go for a woman. The first semi-decent armor they can wear you're likely to find is female-only (cestian girdle).
 

Grimlorn

Arcane
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
10,248
Yeah, Cleric really hasn't been useful for me in levels 1-5, because you find plenty of curative items in the early areas to tide you by until you can get a Ranger or Bard up to level 3.

I somehow rolled a Durendil Templar while trying to test a Durendil Necro. Class seems to start with a Holy Symbol (which does...?) and a big fat shield, and slightly higher skill points? How do they work?
Holy symbol might have an effect on undead. I'd use it on them.
 

osefmarcher

Literate
Joined
Aug 5, 2017
Messages
36
It's just a +5dev item, and 4 charges of Bless spell, you need Incantation skill to use it (it's automatic).
 
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Dominae

Educated
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
43
If I replay going for 6 characters, I'd currently go for:
Saur/Berserker (to Pirate);
Any-Non-Dur/Metalsmith (until I see race/class item restrictions more fully, then maybe Dur if they're not too restricted) - my current is a Naga and he is doing pretty well;
Fae or Dura/Bard (or Aeorb Sage);
Dog/Ranger or Rat or Fae/Thief (for Assassin);
Dog-Cleric? (to Templar)
... and an unknown choice for last caster. Drow maybe, despite the slow mana regen, if their race-special items are any good.

Though to be honest, I basically do NOT use spells right now except to heal, because:
Aeorb are slow as hell. .. so if you can survive the alpha-strike from a boss, they're perfect to start the Lethe-Harp stun-lock cheese.
So last spot being a caster might be silly until if/when Music gets nerfed.
 

Brood_Star

Novice
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
26
Since people have purportedly tested the stats, and we're all awaiting the manual
Made some tests about stats while waiting for manual (might not be 100% accurate) :

DEV = +mana
CON = +vitality

hp is class based
hp regen is fixed at 10% per current hp (not max hp), might be a race ticking rate speed, but almost not noticable (feyfolk seems to regen slower)
mana regen is race based, tick faster for certains races : dwarf/wolfin(ultra mega fast lol)>>>>>>>>>>aeob/durendil/saurian>giant/vamphyr/faefolk(fast)>>>>>>>>human/drow(most horrible)
vit regen is also race based, but not really important it's fast enough as it is, faefolk (ultra fast)>>>>>>>durendil>drow>human/wolfin>dwarf>>giant/drake
So far, testing with stats:
Con has no effect at all on HP gain. Not entirely sure what affects it, but a Sage with 90 Con has 20% of the HP of a Warrior with 40 Con. In fact, the Sage is still liable to gain 2 HP per level even at 90 Con.
Dev has no effect at all on Magic gain. A character with 30 devotion can have the same if not more Magic than a character who has had 95~100 Dev for the past 5 levels. It also has absolutely no effect at all on Magic regen, this is based on Race and Level more than anything it would seem.
Wis has no effect on duration or power of buffs, and healing is entirely based on a die roll. This is between a 56 Wis Bard and a 100 Wis cleric, both had buffs of equal power. If wis does anything for spells, it might make it easier to apply status spells as suggested by another anon, but there is no way to test this as practically, and instruments are better regardless.
Int has no effect on damage of attack spells, this is purely based on dice roll/power level, and fizzles appear to be based completely upon Skill Level. It may effect skill point gain, but I have noted no difference in a 100 Int Sage, who seems to gain 6~20 Skill Points at starting int to 100 int, this appears to be more based on luck when they level than anything and can be savescummed.

Have not yet tested Str or Agi as there isn't too much of a practical way to test them, but Str does increase at the very least, max weight allowed.

DES has a chance of preventing death with a % based on the character's DES. With 80 DES, the character appears to avoid death with at least a 60% chance, while a character with 10 DES appears to avoid death with a 3% chance. This is testing with 100 deaths and is not entirely accurate.

This is testing between characters with 90+ 40 in comparable stats.
And they seemingly do little to nothing, what are people dumping things into?

It sounds like CON/Vit isn't very worthwhile either
Hmm, after some preliminary testing, it seems that CON mainly affects VIT.

Increasing CON determines how much your VIT will increase by each time you level up.

But it also decreases vitality consumption rate to the point that if you raise it to 100 from 20, it will almost double the time it takes you to consume all your vitality.

CON may also have other benefits, but I haven't noticed anything.


As for MET, it seems to have no effect whatsoever on vitality in terms of consumption rate or level up increase.

This leads me to believe that MET, since it stands for metabolism, affects food consumption rate, which is a function that is currently disabled by Cleve.

This means that until Cleve "fixes" food consumption, MET is a waste to put any points into.
Vitality is fucked up. No matter what you do you lose 10%.

Have 10,000 Vit. do a simple action..

You are down to 9,000

Have 1,000 vit. do a simple action..

you are down to 900.

Etc...

It retarded...really.

Zep--

So from what little I've gleaned

INT: Does not affect spell damage? But it's not like you have much else to pump in to for casters besides DEV anyway
WIS: Ditto
WIL: ?
STR: Seems like one of the only increases that provides a tangible benefit
CON: I'm no longer sure what this does at all
AGI: Affects evasion, and possibly penetration?
SPE: Seems like another safe bet to dump stats in
FEL: Seems of limited use
DEV: Magic pool
MET: Useless
DES: Doesn't seem useful at first glance, but if all the above is believed to be true, then there doesn't seem much else worth boosting

At this point, I think I may just do a 50/50 all-in split between STR/SPD for frontliners, and 30/70 base attribute+DEV for casters
 

Lady_Error

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STR and AGI affect penetration. So for fighters STR, AGI and SPD are no-brainers, while CON shouldn't be too low.
 

Lady_Error

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Here is what Cleve said about INT/WIS and automatically increasing skills with them:

Intelligence determines if you learn skillpoints from your successes, wisdom determines if you learn from your failures. Both of these do rolls against a random D100 to determine if you get the skillpoints associated with success or failure. For this reason these skills tend to learn very slowly until intelligence and wisdom goes up, at which time you can stop adding skillpoints at level up and wait for practice of the skill to increase your skill much more rapidly. Believe it or not the Bard works exactly the same way but when they succeed with a musical attempt the skillpoints granted are much greater than the 1 pt crawl of most of the magic casting skills.
 

youhomofo

Augur
Joined
Jul 13, 2005
Messages
142
Tips -

1) Sage is not needed.

The Sage isn't needed, but are you saying he's not useful? You get a mage that comes out of the gate with healing, utility, and damage dealing spells, who can do everything a thief can do, and play instruments. You don't NEED a Sage, but they sure are nice if you ask me.

No i agree, extra HP is useless. Attributes are way more important.
Sage is better than bard, hand down.

Much as I love the sage I'm still bringing a bard. Sure, the sage can handle instrument duty, but the bard has access to so many magic schools. In my eyes she's a slow burn to a powerful wizard. If multiclassing weren't gimped once she mastered her spells I'd switch her to Assassin and pick up another school and turn her into a melee monster to boot. (Assuming the assassin is similar to a Wiz ninja)
 
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YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
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Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
The Sage isn't needed, but are you saying he's not useful? You get a mage that comes out of the gate with healing, utility, and damage dealing spells, who can do everything a thief can do, and play instruments. You don't NEED a Sage, but they sure are nice if you ask me.

Sure, they are nice, I certainly agree with that.. Everyone saying they are necessary is a falsehood I wanted to correct.

If I had an eight man party I'd bring a sage probably. But for a six man party it would hurt my party. Again, bards get high middle category points so have an easier time getting their thief skills up early. Since casters always go last, and magic damage doesn't break cc, it just makes sense to have two DD casters and your bard CC, since the part can CC when it is useful to do so. Or else have your casters plus up speed and invocation/the other thing and have them use consumable cc. But that seems like a hassle. I've only needed to use consumable cc with Samhain since he acted so fast and I was so happy I went full speed on all my melee guys and was able to get cc off before she attacked 97 times and killed almost everyone.

Also, what is nice early isn't mid game and I'm guessing late game. The only things I need to worry about are the mobs that have one-hit kills and act fast, when there are multiple groups of them. Dragonflies, some monarch plant thing, etc. Other than that it is just steamrolling and with my setup I hit battle 99% of the time without having to change anything.

I wish the systems where set up different and everyone wasn't a caster capable of healing. I think this will be a rock solid and balanced game with v3 or v4, and a true masterpiece when something like the class/race modifications Cosmic Forge does for Wiz7 are possible to mod into this game. And it will achieve the rare status of sub-genre ultimate when some sort of better chardev can be moded in, like perks and traits. But for now, the name of the game is speed and lethal blow and early cc and high DD after the cc from the casters. In an 8 man party the sage being a nother higher speed cc for the multiple groups of instakill mobs would be really nice. I just think 6 is a party and 8 is a fucking crazy mob. Eight is too much and covers too much. The game seems to be balanced for 6 member party and veteran difficulty. It gives a decent challenge for this sort of game, and the different areas throw some nice loops at you from what I have seen so far.
 

Brood_Star

Novice
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
26
Some more random notes.

1) Digging through the game files, you can find some spell formulas. Some of them *are* affected by Intelligence, but they're mostly status (i.e. roll more die for Phantasm). The damage formula is gated behind "POWER" and "SLICE" constants, so it's still a mystery what each of the attributes do.
2) The game files also contain all the NPC dialogue prompts. One thing that I didn't realize is some prompts can be modified a bit (i.e. "Lich" will differ from "Lich where"—who/where distinctions are pretty common). There are also prompts that do not show from a Mind Read 7 spell, but nothing major as far as I can tell.
3) Class changing into prestige classes (Assassin, Jester, etc) does not allow you to learn their new skills. This means Ninjutsu and Powerstrike should be unobtainable (the latter without a Sanctuary start ofc)

and some random tips for any beginners/lurkers on top of whatever else
-You can bug Berserk. Have a character enter Berserker mode, use the Berserking skill, then rest, and when you enter the next fight, the default action will be set to Berserk even if you aren't in Berserker mode. Never choose another action and you can continue this indefinitely
-Robbery is fairly borked. I started with 20, robbed Gorlo completely (careful to get the key before you start or he'll get angry), resold all the items back to him, leveled up to 100 quickly, now you can do the same to any other NPC with an infinite gold source. You can also get the Royal Seal from Smithers a bit early with 100 Robbery.
-Sleep Bards etc
-In addition to the above on Berserkers, Lethal Blow and CC sounds like it's probably going to dictate the entire endgame. I don't believe there's any benefit to going Warrior at all other than a lower exp threshold for level 10 class changes, so I say your frontliners should be two Berserkers.
-You can also recruit and dismiss NPCs continuously. For one, you can get an easy source of poison daggers (2d4) early by doing that with Raghilda. Not many other applications, BUT: I've got a high leveled Raghilda and Rosy. I dismissed them, and they retain their levels and *most* of their stats (some differ slightly, skills usually reset to baseline when you recruited), but their exp bar is reset to something like 2700/6500. This seems like an easy way to farm levels without going through a grueling 500k exp for level 10 if you can continuously do this, but I'm not going to bother testing it. (The benefit is basically infinite stats anyway, since you can't class change NPCs. You also have to relearn their skills/spells.)
-If you just keep the Mind Read and Locate Item scrolls on you, you can just use them and then savescum after writing notes to get all the NPC dialogue prompts and the current dungeon layout.
-The bonus points you get on character creation seem fairly negligible. Skills seem like the worst use since the ones you need most level up naturally. HP quickly becomes obsolete after a few levels; 20 hp does not matter at all for a 400HP+ tank. It may be more reasonable on casters. Attributes seem to be the best use, but since Cleve remains enigmatic about what they do, there seems to be very little noticeable benefit to any of them besides Speed and Devotion.

*and a note to Cleve: I spent a few minutes trying to find Mistral again after I dismissed him. The game says he went to the Crypt of Monks, the location spell points to the Crypt of Monks, but I could never encounter him, even through stepping on every single tile. Might be bad luck, or might be something worth looking into.

I must wonder about the necessity of Sages as well. I like having two instrument users, but between the Bard and Sage, the Sage is the slowest fuck imaginable with a base speed far behind the rest of my party, even pumping everything solely into that stat. I'm also desperately wishing I had a Necromancer, because most of my spells overlap.
 
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Lady_Error

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Besides SPD and DEV, STR and AGI are also important (for penetration, higher damage and evasion in combat).
 

Brood_Star

Novice
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
26
I've got a high leveled Raghilda and Rosy. I dismissed them, and they retain their levels and *most* of their stats
I lied. I just got deceived by their ridiculously high base stats. Their xp bar does revert to 2500/6000ish though.
 

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