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Grimoire Class Discussion/Beginner's Tips

Zep Zepo

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Working on Unlocking Skills in DECLINE

Got 5 Skills I don't know which category to set them too.

1-Martial 2-Physical 3-Mental

Astralvision
Deflection
Iajitsu
Meditation
Firearms

Anyone know?

Zep--

I'm just gonna go ahead and add those 5 skills to Mental for the time being...

Zep--
 

Furcas

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Powerstrike is an actual ability that does a large amount of damage (completely eclipses weapons doing 30+ with 12 in it). Extra attacks proc off of it too. I tested this by rolling an assassin at the library via cheat engine. It shows up as a different attack when unarmed.

Lethal blows proc off hand to hand hits for that assassin as well. They also fire off when using powerstrike but it does not seem like it does off the initial powerstrike hit but rather the extra attacks.

Ninjitsu I haven't tested yet, but it doesn't show as an extra attack type. I'll test it tomorrow.

Hand to hand skill goes up still when using powerstrike.

Edit: when said assassin procs a critical, lethal blows skill goes up. This is while using claw or powerstrike.
 
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Brood_Star

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I have two berserkers (HTH) and a ranger (axe). I dumped 20 lethal blow into each. My berserkers have never procced lethal and are still at 20, my ranger is at 60.

My whole party also has powerstrike, and my hthers are are saurian/drake serkers and a naga thief. None of them have a powerstrike option.

Well, at least glad to know that I've apparently been wasting skill points again
 

Furcas

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I have two berserkers (HTH) and a ranger (axe). I dumped 20 lethal blow into each. My berserkers have never procced lethal and are still at 20, my ranger is at 60.

My whole party also has powerstrike, and my hthers are are saurian/drake serkers and a naga thief. None of them have a powerstrike option.

Well, at least glad to know that I've apparently been wasting skill points again
Skills you don't start the character with don't work in most cases. Firearms I'm not sure about. If they are unlocked at character creation they do function. This is also what makes class changes pointless because they have the same issue. That and they don't unlock class skills of course.
 

Morblot

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Might be a dumb question, but is there any use for locksmith's keys and common gate keys? I have shitloads of both. Can I just sell them?

Also, what does a ring of power do? It just says "@SPELLS" and "POWER 0" after identifying. And does a ring of deflection have other uses than being able to cast "Deflection screen", whatever that is?
 

osefmarcher

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For people doubting DEV doesn't increase Mana, here is the test (I already did it multiple times):
devtest.png

All lvl7 sage class, Erasmus is Barrower and Agrippa Wolfin, all other are Aeorb race.
You can see they base mana also from creation (min mana on the stat), so it's not related to mana increase.
 

gestalt11

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So is there any point in ever taking a Thief or Warrior? Thief seems really bad compared to Ranger and/or bard, it doesn't even have a race with high multiplier (1.1 is best compared to 1.6 for ranger). Warrior seems worse than Ranger(similar HP, has lethal blow, much better caster) and Berserker and maybe even metalsmith (worse HP but gets lethal blow). Even when it comes to XP Ranger is either super close to thief or better than warrior.

These two classes seem like always a bad choice.
 

Lady_Error

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Might be a dumb question, but is there any use for locksmith's keys and common gate keys? I have shitloads of both. Can I just sell them?

You can use them on some of the doors that can be lockpicked, I think, though I didn't try that and instead just force the doors open. The keys used to be good for some cash, but now you can just discard them for the most part. Backer keys are a different story.
 

Morblot

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Might be a dumb question, but is there any use for locksmith's keys and common gate keys? I have shitloads of both. Can I just sell them?

You can use them on some of the doors that can be lockpicked, I think, though I didn't try that and instead just force the doors open. The keys used to be good for some cash, but now you can just discard them for the most part. Backer keys are a different story.

I did try them on regular locked doors and locked chests that can be picked, but they didn't do shit. I ended up selling most of them.
 

Furcas

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On dev and Mana:. People weren't doubting the effect but rather the magnitude. People weren't going from 50 to 100 in one go so the effect isn't so pronounced for them.

My question is did you start with 100 dev or increase it naturally. As I understand it you're gaining the effects of it on level up so unless you hit max early you wouldn't see as much Mana out of it. Is that not the case?
 

Lord Andre

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On dev and Mana:. People weren't doubting the effect but rather the magnitude. People weren't going from 50 to 100 in one go so the effect isn't so pronounced for them.

My question is did you start with 100 dev or increase it naturally. As I understand it you're gaining the effects of it on level up so unless you hit max early you wouldn't see as much Mana out of it. Is that not the case?

Agree. Unless the effect is retroactive it's not really worth it.
 

osefmarcher

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On dev and Mana:. People weren't doubting the effect but rather the magnitude. People weren't going from 50 to 100 in one go so the effect isn't so pronounced for them.

My question is did you start with 100 dev or increase it naturally. As I understand it you're gaining the effects of it on level up so unless you hit max early you wouldn't see as much Mana out of it. Is that not the case?

It's not retroactive :
devtest2.jpg
 

Furcas

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Few extras I figured out:

1. Berserking only works with weapons that have melee as one of their attacks. When you use berserk, the next round should give you an ability called berserk. Using it will cause you to attack and get a damage bonus labeled berserk.

2. Several weapons lack this trait. This renders a good half the weapons in the game less than useful for berserkers. None of the spears have it. This pretty much relegates you to swords and axe/scimitar to make use of lethal blows and berserk.

3. Lethal blows can fire off at the same time as berserk for extra hilarity. Berserk hits really hard.

4. Ninjitsu as best as I can tell doesn't go up on it's own. Neither does ironhand after using it a bunch now.

5. Berserk goes up on kills like weapon skills.
 

Agame

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Is it worth doing the Wizardry thing with characters, eg starting someone as a warrior and then later multiclassing into a spellcaster?

I also just spotted something wierd, when making a vamphyr I never get any bonus points to spend when choosing wizard class, but it seems to work for warrior/thief, all three of those only require 5 points for a vamphyr so there should be extra points to spend on wizard with a high roll, must be a bug?

And it kind of sucks that vamphyr bite/claw does nothing in combat, I hope thats on Cleves to do list.
 

gestalt11

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Is it worth doing the Wizardry thing with characters, eg starting someone as a warrior and then later multiclassing into a spellcaster?

I also just spotted something wierd, when making a vamphyr I never get any bonus points to spend when choosing wizard class, but it seems to work for warrior/thief, all three of those only require 5 points for a vamphyr so there should be extra points to spend on wizard with a high roll, must be a bug?

And it kind of sucks that vamphyr bite/claw does nothing in combat, I hope thats on Cleves to do list.

For bonus points you need a certain number of points spare to get bonus points, can't remember the number but its like 15 or so check the wiki. This is affected by the racial modifier for a class however you DO NOT get the full multiplied amount if you take attribute. So if you do an Aeorb sage you can get a ridiculous amount of bonus points in the 40s but that will actually be like 20 attribute points. This is not entirely a bug as if you had chosen HP you would get the 40. So anything that needs to roll about 20 or above (and has no multiplier) can not get bonus points.

As for class changing it is kind of broken atm with the way the skills are not unlocked. However I would say changing a warrior to a spellcaster is pointless and probably this is intended by Cleve. ALL classes can spellcast (and I am assuming this is exactly why). A warrior will start getting Wizard spells at level 9 and you can only change classes at level 10. So changing a Warrior to a Wizard is actually somewhat harmful. Changing a warrior to a Cleric would just change your spell book some.

There are certain cases like changing a Ranger to an Assassin where you would expand your spellbook in exchange for the 3 levels of no more spell choice. In the end changing any melee-class to a pure caster is either a wash or somewhat to very harmful. Some of the "Prestige" classes that cannot be started often get two spellbooks so their is some cases where the versatility is nice. You could switch a Warrior to pirate to get two spellbook however you need 10 warrior levels and then 6 pirate levels to ever gain spell choices, so I am not convinced this works out in any decent sort of practical manner since I think your party will probably cap out around 20 or so (can someone confirm that level?) .
 

Furcas

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Ninjitsu is a damage bonus to hth it appears, and possibly extra attacks. Extra attacks seemed far more common with more in the skill. With 100 in it, iron hands, and powerstriking I did over 75 damage a couple times. Without any in ninjitsu it was around 40 at most on powerstrikes. With no ironhand either, claw attacks were doing 10-20. So if you're attempting to abuse the monster population a little bit, make sure to dump your points into Ironhands. HTH goes up just fine on its own. Ninjitsu isn't accessible unless you change class into assassin or jester, cheat yourself one, or find some other way to learn the skill.

Hand to hand is really, really powerful. It isn't a magic attack though, and that limits what it's capable of hitting. There may be some HTH gloves or something out there that are magic and that could change things up a bit.
 

Agame

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@gestalt11 thanks for the info, it does seem like multiclassing, even into the "prestige" classes is of rather dubious value in this game. Not sure why that would be a goal for Cleve as half the fun of Wizardry was planning out characters and doing multiple class changes.

Regarding the vamphyr I probably didnt explain it correctly, what I have found is: going off the chart for character building someone has made, warrior/thief/wizard all require 5 points for vamphyr. If I make a warrior or thief vamphyr with a roll of 20 I get 15 points to spend, great. If I make a wizard vamphyr with a roll of 20 I get no points to spend, hmm? Seems broken and is a shame as I want to make a vamphyr wizard but it :feelsbadman: getting gimped on the bonus points...
 

Furcas

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@gestalt11 thanks for the info, it does seem like multiclassing, even into the "prestige" classes is of rather dubious value in this game. Not sure why that would be a goal for Cleve as half the fun of Wizardry was planning out characters and doing multiple class changes.

Regarding the vamphyr I probably didnt explain it correctly, what I have found is: going off the chart for character building someone has made, warrior/thief/wizard all require 5 points for vamphyr. If I make a warrior or thief vamphyr with a roll of 20 I get 15 points to spend, great. If I make a wizard vamphyr with a roll of 20 I get no points to spend, hmm? Seems broken and is a shame as I want to make a vamphyr wizard but it :feelsbadman: getting gimped on the bonus points...
That's how it's supposed to work. Some classes have higher or different stat requirements. End result is if your roll isn't high enough (32 is max) you can end up with no bonus points because they're preallocated to making the class possible.
 

Furcas

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warrior/thief/wizard all require 5 points for vamphyr.

Yep, I'm wrong. I would guess it's either stealing them or auto allocating them. A sure way to tell would be to make one of each and total up stat points after you start. You may not be losing them but just not getting a choice on where to put them. Still not desirable.

Gestalt's post shouldn't apply in that case as you both rolled past the threshold and met the class requirement. The other thought is his statement about multipliers, but none of those classes have a penalty. Something weird going on there.
 

Agame

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warrior/thief/wizard all require 5 points for vamphyr.

Yep, I'm wrong. I would guess it's either stealing them or auto allocating them. A sure way to tell would be to make one of each and total up stat points after you start. You may not be losing them but just not getting a choice on where to put them. Still not desirable.

Gestalt's post shouldn't apply in that case as you both rolled past the threshold and met the class requirement. The other thought is his statement about multipliers, but none of those classes have a penalty. Something weird going on there.

Good idea, I will check that, and also I should probably check the other race/class combos to see if anything else is not working.
 

Agame

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Yea there is something wierd going on, just created an Aeorb Wizard, Sage and Thaumaturge all 20+ rolls, the Thaumaturge never gets bonus points to spend.

Ok more testing and it looks like that 'unofficial grimoire guide' is incorrect, thaumaturge requires 40 AGI which sucks up all the aeorbs bonus points. And I got a vamp wizard with bonus points but i needed a 30+ roll.
 
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Grimlorn

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Yea there is something wierd going on, just created an Aeorb Wizard, Sage and Thaumaturge all 20+ rolls, the Thaumaturge never gets bonus points to spend.
You'd probably need a roll of 30. Try 25 first, but if that doesn't give you a bonus you need to try 30. Aeorb Thaum get no bonus multiplier and need 15 points to become Thaums.
 

Agame

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Yea there is something wierd going on, just created an Aeorb Wizard, Sage and Thaumaturge all 20+ rolls, the Thaumaturge never gets bonus points to spend.
You'd probably need a roll of 30. Try 25 first, but if that doesn't give you a bonus you need to try 30. Aeorb Thaum get no bonus multiplier and need 15 points to become Thaums.

Actually I completely forgot the multiplier thing, Im sure thats the answer, just ignore my previous posts!
 

luj1

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Tips -

1) Sage is not needed...


Aeorb Sage is one of the best party members you can have. In fact here's what Cleve's son had to say about Sages
2. You need a Sage.

Every party must have a Sage. Sages are basically a jack-of-all-trades caster that has tons of utility early game and becomes just as badass as a necromancer or wizard late game. You can potentially even omit a necromancer, cleric, or wizard from your party and have your sage fill that position instead. Obviously, they won't be as effective as that actual role. But that extra slot would allow you to stick an additional fighter in your party. Make sure you get Detect Secret as one of your Sage's starting spells. An Aeorb or Human Sage is a must.
 

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