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Grimoire Class Discussion/Beginner's Tips

Furcas

Novice
Joined
Aug 11, 2017
Messages
15
It does make me chuckle when it happens. Ohhh, Mr. Black Lich, you think you're so strong! Nuclear launch detected.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
My point was that spellcasters aren't weak they just look weak because the bard class is broken.

It isn't really anymore. Music points go up slowly, Halcyonic Lyre is now Cone of Cold. Only the resistances of some tougher monsters against sleep/paralysis/charm instruments still need to be adjusted.

I would change musical instruments to alter weapons and let them proc like throwing weapons or gauches. Then it would be more in line with the rest of the classes.
 

Furcas

Novice
Joined
Aug 11, 2017
Messages
15
Like Edward. I'm going to play to you so hard it hurts!

edit: play not sing. Doh.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,205
Location
Ingrija
I would change musical instruments to alter weapons and let them proc like throwing weapons or gauches. Then it would be more in line with the rest of the classes.

Nah, that's crap. Just give resistances where applicable (wtf, ghosts getting paralyzed?) - the sleep lyre, for instance, doesn't affect everyone by far, not even the green hand gang.

Then again, I have already stopped using music instruments because long spell fx are annoying. Make them 10 times slower, and everyone will stop using them unless as a last resort against hard bosses :lol:
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2015
Messages
1,350
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I would change musical instruments to alter weapons and let them proc like throwing weapons or gauches. Then it would be more in line with the rest of the classes.

Nah, that's crap. Just give resistances where applicable (wtf, ghosts getting paralyzed?) - the sleep lyre, for instance, doesn't affect everyone by far, not even the green hand gang.

Then again, I have already stopped using music instruments because long spell fx are annoying. Make them 10 times slower, and everyone will stop using them unless as a last resort against hard bosses :lol:
It was pretty amusing to poison ghosts.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
Its probably more challenging to play on novice with one character that doesn't cast spells. So? Instruments provide the only non consumable cc that can be applied before enemies act. Early game this is great, but mid game when there are groups of ninjas that can kill half your party if they act it is nice to know you can cc at least one. The only use spellcatsers are is for aoeing weak groups or high DD of ST if you can eat their hits.

What level does Sage get Deep Freeze compared to the other classes that get it? What are you basing a Sage being the most powerful off of specifically? Because I highly disagree.

My point was that spellcasters aren't weak they just look weak because the bard class is broken.

The case for aeorb sage is that it can do a lot of things very well without being a one trick pony deep freeze bot.

What can it do well that the other casters can't? Bard is way better than sage and all the other starting spell casters besides cleric are too. The only thing sage is good for is being able to use an instrument and that is only for an 8 man party. If instruments were so great I would bring a sage or second bard in my six man, instead of two damage casters. I certainly see how great casters are and have since the beginning. They are great early and mid game and they should be better if anything late game if enemy party and party sizes keep increasing. I am holding off playing for a bit and have deleted all my saves to force me to start over when I do start again so have not reached late game. The toughest place I cleared was the mandarin palace with the kill your party ninja masters and kill half the party ninjas that come in single groups of three usually and it is critical none get the chance to act. So, keep in mind I have no experience late game.

I really like and think metalsmiths are great because of all the items they can use, lethal blow, ancient knowledge, good casting, just a very strong class with no weaknesses. You seem to look at sages the way I look at metalsmiths. But I can list a ton of weaknesses of sages compared to other classes, and while I can't think of any for the metalsmith other than in an 8 man with a sage it may be just as good to bring another berserker, but you still need a melee that can wield all weapons, and I haven't checked the changes to the game in the last week or so but Templars and warriors aren't as good as metalsmiths in my opinion.
 

PEACH

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
285
I'm hardly min-maxing or focused on optimization but I'm glad I have a sage for advanced assaying alone. I've used it so frequently and while it's hardly a necessity, I really like the ability to get more information and a journal entry about any unidentified item at a moment's notice. I'm not sure if there are other ways around that other than the 10(?) from sanctuary, or to procure the spell elsewhere, but I'd probably make another for my next party as well.

Plus he casts status ailments, most of my curing, locate item, raise dead, locate person etc. While I'm sure you can tune a party to render him obsolete, at 25% map explored he's been incredibly helpful the entire way, enough that I dropped my cleric entirely and haven't missed them
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
I'm hardly min-maxing or focused on optimization but I'm glad I have a sage for advanced assaying alone. I've used it so frequently and while it's hardly a necessity, I really like the ability to get more information and a journal entry about any unidentified item at a moment's notice. I'm not sure if there are other ways around that other than the 10(?) from sanctuary, or to procure the spell elsewhere, but I'd probably make another for my next party as well.

Plus he casts status ailments, most of my curing, locate item, raise dead, locate person etc. While I'm sure you can tune a party to render him obsolete, at 25% map explored he's been incredibly helpful the entire way, enough that I dropped my cleric entirely and haven't missed them

The only place I've ever started was the skull place. My metalsmith does the assaying since he has nothing else to put third skill group points into. I'm not saying they are a bad class and if I had an 8 man party I'd most likely have a sage. I just think 8 is too many and I lose the sense of "my party." It just becomes a gaggle I don't know well. Six is the maximum for me to feel each one is really mine and has an identity. If it had npcs like wiz8 that join and have content and agenda and aren't permanent and do leave for specific zones and are meant to be switched out I would pick up npcs. But the npcs are just too much. Every one I've seen besides Junga Din is far too OP. I'd definitely take him if he had some content. Without content he is just a character that puts my party over the limit that I didn't even make. I don't know if that makes sense, but it is important to me that my characters feel like mine and all are individuals with specific roles that do specific things. I love creating my own party but I believe less is more when it comes to being attached. I am not a graphics whore at all but portraits are a really big deal to me and I'll spend huge amounts of time deciding on one, changing classes for it, etc.
 

PEACH

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
285
Fair enough, I definitely get what you're saying and can see where you're coming from. I've left a space open as a revolving door for NPCs but you're right that a majority of them are way too overpowered which is why I kick them out fairly routinely after having a look at them.

As far as 8 party members go, I may have felt like it was too much too if I didn't design them cooperatively with my girlfriend which makes some feel like mine / some feel like hers and I definitely have a soft spot for sage due to him being one that I designed / planned out personally rather than one she made
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
What can it do well that the other casters can't? Bard is way better than sage and all the other starting spell casters besides cleric are too. The only thing sage is good for is being able to use an instrument and that is only for an 8 man party. If instruments were so great I would bring a sage or second bard in my six man, instead of two damage casters. I certainly see how great casters are and have since the beginning. They are great early and mid game and they should be better if anything late game if enemy party and party sizes keep increasing. I am holding off playing for a bit and have deleted all my saves to force me to start over when I do start again so have not reached late game. The toughest place I cleared was the mandarin palace with the kill your party ninja masters and kill half the party ninjas that come in single groups of three usually and it is critical none get the chance to act. So, keep in mind I have no experience late game.

I really like and think metalsmiths are great because of all the items they can use, lethal blow, ancient knowledge, good casting, just a very strong class with no weaknesses. You seem to look at sages the way I look at metalsmiths. But I can list a ton of weaknesses of sages compared to other classes, and while I can't think of any for the metalsmith other than in an 8 man with a sage it may be just as good to bring another berserker, but you still need a melee that can wield all weapons, and I haven't checked the changes to the game in the last week or so but Templars and warriors aren't as good as metalsmiths in my opinion.

It's not a clear case of omg aeorb sage is best evar. I like them because in theory they can learn any spell and max cast it because they have a bigger mana pool than the rest of the classes. It's true that when deep freeze does 500 damage on a one die cast, it kind of makes max casting other spells irrelevant. Who knows maybe the incoming tweaks that Cleve was hinting at will make it so that other spells get a chance to shine too...

Why in hell does Thaumaturge fizzle so much?

Maybe alchemistry is weaker than the other magic skills by design to account for doubling as a crafting skill ? Or something's fucked about it...
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
My Aeorb Sage has basically been the utility man, mostly doing detect secret and astral spells etc. Sometimes Confuse etc. Just doesn't seem to get any massive damage skills.
 

PEACH

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
285
Yeah I've mostly relied on status effects and shrill sound with my sage so there's no big fireball/deep freeze haymaker spells for him, but I imagine the utility is his wheelhouse overall.

He isn't the best healer and isn't the best nuker but fills the gaps efficiently where need be and has the bonus of plentiful out of combat spells to aid in secret hunting and area traversal and the odd heavy heal and cure disease when need be.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,205
Location
Ingrija
If you want your sages to be effective in combat, give them an instrument. +M

Well, now that music doesn't grow on its own and sages get like 1-2 physical skillpoints at levelup, they ain't gonna be very effective. They can still play something like lethe harp, but horn of winter or halcyonic lyre is all fizzle and beyond their ability.

The game does not shy from giving away fireball, magic missile and firestorm spellbooks though. So long as free scribing for everyone isn't fixed, sages can be converted to battlemages. I don't see why you'd need a battlemage to begin with, though. Anything a bunch of berserkers can't deal with in a round, a lethe harp/horn of winter and a bunch of berserkers can deal in two. :smug:
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

Self-Ejected
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
2,957
Location
Free Village
quick question guys, how do wis and int work in regards to success and failure?

Like, if I swing a sword and hit but don't penetrate - is that success or failure?

If I play an instrument (can you ever fail to play an instrument btw?)/ succesfully get off a spell but the enemy saves, success or failure?

Also, do I need inspection and lockpicking on the same guy?
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
quick question guys, how do wis and int work in regards to success and failure?

Like, if I swing a sword and hit but don't penetrate - is that success or failure?

If I play an instrument (can you ever fail to play an instrument btw?)/ succesfully get off a spell but the enemy saves, success or failure?

Also, do I need inspection and lockpicking on the same guy?

The way it works, martial skills have a chance to increase when you successfully kill an enemy. That is governed by the attribute Intelligence.

Skills that cover item use, including music for playing instruments, have a chance to go up even if you fail in its application. If an enemy saves or resists the effect, or if the item backfires, that would count as a failure. Wisdom contributes to a higher chance of skill increase when you fail.

You need the skills inspection and lock picking on the same character for disarming traps.
 

Yeoman

Educated
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
29
For some reason my Ranger and Thief don't have a Bladesmanship skill. Either I'm playing the game wrong or there's more picoissues for Cleve to fix.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

Self-Ejected
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
2,957
Location
Free Village
never having played before V2, all I can say is: DON'T ever start with a necro


takes forever to level up, and even on a roll of 42, you won't get to spend bonus points on skills with ANY race. Meaning all your spells will fizzle at the start and you're a worse kind of slinger.

level 1 spells actually don't sound bad, it's just that you won't get to cast any of them.

edit: ok for posterity's sake I'll leave this shitpost up :lol: just ignore it.

Though I have to say... the cases where I'd take a single class necro into a party are still rare. Drow assassins are basically pumped up necros with great combat skills, available on level 1 and they actually don't take much longer to level than the necro, only downside being the mana regen. So unless you are rolling a magic damage heavy party and rly rly need that CC, I still wouldn't create a necro.
 
Last edited:

Lady_Error

█▓▒░ ░▒▓█
Patron
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
1,879,250
What are the rolls required for a pirate and jester in the beginning? Are those possible at all? The assassin is relatively easy to roll compared to those.
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
How exactly to multi-class? Got level 3 on character, got stats but cant multiclass...
 

Whisper

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,357
How exactly to multi-class? Got level 3 on character, got stats but cant multiclass...
I was able to change a character's profession once they got to level 4.

Yes, figured it. But its useless. Exp is same to get to next level as if you didnt change level at all.

So no clue why multi-class would be useful unless you go for elite professions.
 

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