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Has anyone played all the C&C games, if so what do you think of them?

anvi

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I have, would have a hard time picking the best though. There are a few of them that do things I really like but overall I feel like none of them have ever truly nailed it. The closest was probably Tiberium Sun, but it came before gaming got really big, and before the internet got really big. I think in this age of MOBAs and battle royale and whatnot, some other types of competitive multiplayer games (and co op) would be really popular. But it needs to be done well and I don't even know what that would be anymore. I don't think EA do either, which is to be expected seeing as they got rid of all the people with true talent and foresight (Westwood etc).

I like the Supreme Commander games too, and World in Conflict. Although I think the latter is more like a different genre entirely, like the Company of Heroes games, they are just different.

I think the only RTS I never got into was Starcraft and sequel. I liked the Warcraft games though.
 

majorsoccer

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Command & Conquer is probably the biggest gaming franchise ever made,look how many titles C&C has:

Dune 2
Command and Conquer 95
Warcraft
Warcraft 2
Z
Command and Conquer Red Alert
Command and Conquer Tiberian sun
Age of Empires
Starcraft
Dark Reign
KKnd
KKND: Krush Kill 'n Destroy Xtreme
KKND2: Krossfire
Dune 2000
Command and Conquer Red Alert 2
Age of Empires 2
Emperor: Battle for Dune
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds
Command and Conquer Generals
Age of Mythology
Cossacks: European Wars
American Conquest
Command and Conquer Red Alert 3
Armies of Exigo
Axis and Allies
Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War
Empire Earth
Empire Earth 2
Empire Earth 3
Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth
Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth 2
Star Wars: Empire at War
Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars
Stalin vs. Martians
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty
Command & Conquer 4: Tiberian Twilight
Age of Empires 3
0 A.D
Cossacks 3

You need alot of time if want to play all the C&C games
 

luj1

You're all shills
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I have really fond memories of Tiberian Sun. It's probably my favorite C&C game.

1. Tiberian Sun
2. Red Alert
3. Red Alert 2
4. Generals (?)
 

DalekFlay

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I'm not much of an RTS guy at all but I played through all the Red Alert games for their unique style and story, and enjoyed myself very much. Could do a lot worse.
 

anvi

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Yep it was a huge series but it seems like not only did C&C die because EA are morons, but RTS's in general died too. Tower Defense is popular though, which to me is basically half an RTS. It has all the defending aspect that most RTS games had, the only difference is that you can't build up and then go on the offensive. But I think if someone smart could bridge that gap, and after playing through the C&C games recently, I can see how it can easily be done. Most of the series didn't need skilful attacks, they just needed you to chip away at their key structures or overwhelm them. You could put those attacks into a Tower Defense game and give the player a chance to eventually tip the scales and fight back.
 

Terra

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Played and finished them all except C&C4, EA + no base building + always online was enough for me to never touch that travesty. In an ideal world, Petroglyph could redo it after the remasters and actually make a proper end to the franchise.

But I digress. For me, the original C&C really set the tone, theme and my expectations for the series and Joe Kucan did such a great job as Kane that the original holds a special place for me. Added to that, there were frequently multiple choices of missions as you advance through the story, offering different map layouts and sometimes even completely different missions as the campaign progresses, offering great replay value for the main campaign. As the series continued, this aspect unfortunately disappeared and thus this remains a big plus for the earlier games in the series.

In terms of overall quality, things started to drop off in terms of core C & C values for me with Generals, going with 1:1 real life factions seemed a bit dull to me and while the takes on say China were humorous, the typical EA-induced laziness/streamlining started to set in with this entry when the FMV mission intros, hallmarks of the series, were replaced with text briefings.

Tiberian Sun was weird, I wasn't a massive fan of the leap from the tech level in C&C1 to Tib Sun, with cyborgs, walkers replacing standard tanks and whatnot but I still enjoyed the game, however there were a lot of unfinished and unrealised aspects to that outing sadly.

Gameplay wise RA1 + RA2 are still both absolute classics, with both games featuring fantastic expansion content, from the original C & C's Covert Operations, through Aftermath,Counterstrike and Yuri's revenge, these were true expansions and provided some of the trickiest missions across the series; it was always fun to fathom out the solutions to these puzzles, you could always tell the designers had gone to town on some of these - Paradox Equation (I think) completely rejigged all units for one mission so Heavy Tanks fired Tesla coils and other various things, the expansions were packed with fun experiments and interesting mission setups like that, it was a great time for the genre

For me, recent attempts at RTS games fail in making their factions appealing/interesting; in the Tiberium series you have the charismatic Kane, in RA you're working with Stalin and so on, I'm immediately invested because of the care and attention put into the FMVs that form the backdrop of the game, like Einstein assassinating Hitler in the opening moments of RA immediately catches your interest and draws you in. Marry that up with memorable units; Tesla Coils, Obelisks of light, Flame troopers and the like and you've got some very distinctive factions to play as (as well as there being tangible "faces" for the factions and franchise). Petroglyph have tried recently with the 8-bit games, Grey Goo and that other one Forged Batallion, these guys have nailed the C&C gameplay but they've completely forgotten how to do memorable/appealing factions and thus their recent attempts have been completely forgettable. C & C had this cool near-future thing going on (the original at least) and RA had an alternate past that were immediately recognisable/relatable. Maybe the unique combination of gameplay and quirky/slightly camp FMVs were products of their time, but I actually gave a shit about GDI/Nod and Allies/Soviets, but the newer RTS games- I couldn't give a shit because the factions are trash. Probably the same reason people were clamouring for an actual campaign in the Sins of a Solar Empire series; there you had some decent factions but no story/campaign.

I watched the GDC Classic Game postmortem for C&C while at work this week, it's a interesting watch but the big takeaway for me was it was one of those beautiful times in game dev where they'd caught lightning in a bottle; the people involved gave a shit, they loved the game they were making and it shows in the earlier products especially.
 
Last edited:

Endemic

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I enjoyed C&C 1 and Red Alert 1, and the multiplayer community for the latter is still active to this day. Started Tiberian Sun recently, I should get round to finishing the campaigns at some point.
 

anvi

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I enjoyed C&C 1 and Red Alert 1, and the multiplayer community for the latter is still active to this day. Started Tiberian Sun recently, I should get round to finishing the campaigns at some point.

There is a free Tiberian Sun download now that has a multiplayer build in and stuff, really slick. What did you think about Generals and Zero Hour?

I think it is strange how long lasting popular games series can just die out. It happened to space games too but they are threatening a comeback at the moment. I think the same will happen to RTS eventually.
 

Removal

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Generals and Zero Hour play very differently from the rest of the franchise, they're a solid okay and fun to play but don't reach the heights of the other games
 

Endemic

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There is a free Tiberian Sun download now that has a multiplayer build in and stuff, really slick.

Yeah, that's the one I used.

What did you think about Generals and Zero Hour?

I played those many years ago, I remember the campaigns and generals being very tongue-in-cheek, and balance in multiplayer was...interesting.

I think it is strange how long lasting popular games series can just die out. It happened to space games too but they are threatening a comeback at the moment. I think the same will happen to RTS eventually.

Plenty of indie space games out there, some are even Elite clones. Admittedly nothing with AAA production values, but that isn't necessary for a good game imo.
 

anvi

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That's my point, there was a time when you couldn't find any space games except old ones, now there are 100 on Steam. Most are tiny indie games but there are some big ones too, that's why I am saying about a comeback. RTS hasn't had that yet.
 

Endemic

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That's my point, there was a time when you couldn't find any space games except old ones, now there are 100 on Steam. Most are tiny indie games but there are some big ones too, that's why I am saying about a comeback. RTS hasn't had that yet.

Eugen's Wargame series seems to be pretty popular, have you tried any of them? They're also working on a Steel Division 2.
 

fantadomat

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Red alert 2 is test game as entry way for someone that haven't played the games. All of them are great tho....talking about the old ones,anything after yuri is garbage!
 
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My favourite one would be Red Alert 2, plus Yuri's Revenge.

When I first saw the original C&C at a friend's place, I was blown away. The elegant control scheme, the ability to select any amount of units and assign groups, the graphics, the music. Even the installation program was amazing. I had played the hell out of Dune 2, and that was like a heavily improved Dune 2. So naturally, I bought the game thinking "OK, this requires a 486DX at 40 MHz and I have a 386DX at 40 MHz, but I have the required 4 MB of RAM... it will probably be a bit slow, but I'll manage". I managed until after mission 5, which took 30 minutes in real time, or 5 minutes in CPU time. It was too sluggish afterwards, as the unit count increased.

I didn't get to experience it in its full glory until 1998, when my father got a Pentium II at 266 MHz with 64 MB of RAM - computers and phone/Internet were fucking expensive before the euro, and pretty much everything else was cheap, whereas the opposite is true now.
 

Stormcrowfleet

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First one I played as a kid in 1995 was Red Alert. It was crazy good and it still is. I played most of the main series of C&C, and I liked most of them. The recent ones (after RA2 I guess) are okayish, but not memorable and I wouldn't replay them. I have fond memory of Tiberium Sun because of the aesthetic, music, etc.
 

Malakal

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I played first CnC installed from floppies, good times. Loved how new the mechanics felt at the time (dawn of RTS).

But the one I enjoyed most was RA2 as it was really fun game with interesting and novel units. Wasn't much of a fan of RA1.

CnC3 is a notable mention too.
 

anvi

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I played most of the series in the past few weeks. It bugs me how they never found a niche with the C&C games and mastered it. Each one plays differently. The last one I played is C&C 3 Tiberium Wars which made me realise I hate it. First off, it is really zoomed in so the focus is on the zomg shit blowing up zomg, and less on the grand strategy of dominating a map. I hate that. Also you can build a crane as your first building and then you can build 2 things at once, so you just spam out power plants while using the second tab to build your base. You can also mass produce refineries, so by the time I built towards the middle of the map I have basically infinite money and units, and I just keep building endless power plants, and I can build towards the enemy base and just wipe him out easily with base defences. I don't even need to build any units. It doesn't matter how hard the AI is if you control 90% of the map. I find it far too intense to play though, I am building something every 2 or 3 seconds for the entire game, 4 tabs of buildings constantly ticking down, 2 for base buildings and 2 for defenses (which also attack).

Compare that to Tiberian Sun and it is completely different. In that game you can't build across the map in the same way because it costs far more, the building distance is far shorter so it would take much longer, and the landscape of so cratered and busy that you just can't build in most directions. It means that your best option is to defend well, and build a big attack that will finish off the enemy. And these attacks can work in many different ways, air, ground, underground, and you can also set up a new base near the enemy base which lets you use EMP. And if you land one or two super weapons at the same time then you can overpower anyone. But this is not easy to do and takes time to set up. But it is a totally different type of game.

And then Red Alert is completely different again. And Generals is different too. It is like a bunch of unique RTS games all under the same name, but you never know what you are going to get. Regardless of the name you could get a sequel to any of these. Or you could until the whole thing died. Personally I think they should have found one of these to stick to and master, because most of these types of games have better alternatives. For pure actions per minute, I think Starcraft is probably better. Supereme Commander too can be kind of man handled, if you just play like a plague, expand constantly aggressively destroy everything and build on every inch, you can win with the intensity. If you want a more tactical game then Tiberium Sun is better but never got a true sequel. Generals is sort of in between. Generals also has 3 races instead of 2 but I think it suffers because of it. Each one is pretty OP in one way which makes the whole thing very rock paper scissors. Also there were balance issues with the super weapon general, his planes basic bombs become like mini nukes so mass produce those and you can wipe out anything in no time. People used to make games that had that general banned, but then you are playing rock paper scissors but without the scissors.

C&C 4 is so weird because it is like they have no confidence at all... How can you abandon the idea of base building just because everyone else is doing it? Stuff like Company of Heroes and World in Conflict basically got rid of base building and focused on the units fighting each other, and C&C4 tried to be part of that. But why not have the confidence in your own convictions? If you made base building RTS games for 20 years and suddenly you see a new way, you just abandon everything your colleagues have ever done? Do they really have such little respect for people at Westwood that they bought out for a reason? You now have games that have gone to the other extreme, games like Factorio where you build constantly and building are everything. There are a few defense buildings and you can have a few units to attack or defend, but the whole concept of attacking is basically gone and instead you have a game just about defending and building. And there are lots of pure building games, building cities, building space stations, building frost villages, building every fucking thing. C&C should have found its own identity and mastered it.
 

Terra

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C&C 4 is so weird because it is like they have no confidence at all... How can you abandon the idea of base building just because everyone else is doing it? Stuff like Company of Heroes and World in Conflict basically got rid of base building and focused on the units fighting each other, and C&C4 tried to be part of that. But why not have the confidence in your own convictions? If you made base building RTS games for 20 years and suddenly you see a new way, you just abandon everything your colleagues have ever done? Do they really have such little respect for people at Westwood that they bought out for a reason?
If you want a real chuckle about how C & C 4 ended up how it did, just watch this hilarity from 26:10 onwards to see EA at their finest.


And they will never, ever change their modus operandi.
 

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