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Has Artificial Intelligence in RPGs Stopped Evolving?

Has RPG AI stopped evolving?


  • Total voters
    63

lobsterfrogman

Scholar
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
109
Do we really want a good AI though? People love to bitch about bad AIs in games, but I bet even most codexers would ragequit when faced with opponents who play defensively, kite them, abuse chokepoints and line-of-sight shenanigans.
 

The Great ThunThun*

How DARE you!?
Patron
Joined
Mar 8, 2018
Messages
583
Pathfinder: Wrath
You guys should first stop linking AI to emergent storytelling. That latter is a bullshit propagated by idiots like Todd Howard. I would rather have handcrafted encounters and well written story over shallow boring emergent stuff.

The real value of AI is in companion and enemy behavior on the battlefield. I wonder what Vault Dweller has to say about it.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,857
AI evolution in games stopped on Black and White 1. B&W1 set bar so high that frankly speaking i am pretty shocked they ever did that so many years ago.

It is the only imo game that you could say AI was actually artificial intelligence, rest of games could be instead categorized as dumb scripting.
For those who don't know what B&W is it was Lionhead game and Peter Molyneux baby one of rare times where his brilliance was shown as mother fucked actually build AI that could learn reasonably well patters to basically replicate an actual animal.

Monsters in that game could actually learn sophisticated patterns and they could actually use some intelligence to solve problems.

Like for example to get your monster strong you had to give him a rock and make him move around with that rock. If you for example do it every morning and in reasonable same way monster by itself would pick up that pattern and would try to train by itself. And it wasn't just dumb mimicking. Monster could for example take a rock in completely different part of island and start to walk with it in using different road because monster apparently understood that walking/running with huge rocks is making him stronger.

Teach monster water spell and he will try to mimic it but you can leave it alone and after a while he would pick up by itself that he can use it to put down fire or grow trees.

Your village has problems with food ? No problem. Just teach your monster to regularly grow fields with water spells, take wheat from those fields and throw them to granary.

Obviously system was not perfect but sometimes you would be amazed what that AI could learn. Like for example my turtle monster picked up spell from opposite enemy power just by looking at it from afar, then he started to use it and raze enemy villages. In my other play-trough my monster learned that he can just go and steal wheat and wood from other enemy powers just by walking to village and picking it up. So he basically broke my game because i never run out of food or wood while enemy could grow...

I played B&W2 but from what i played they scaled back AI in it.

You guys should first stop linking AI to emergent storytelling. That latter is a bullshit propagated by idiots like Todd Howard. I would rather have handcrafted encounters and well written story over shallow boring emergent stuff.

You obviously never played Dwarf Fortress.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,781
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
I would rather have handcrafted encounters and well written story over shallow boring emergent stuff.
Nah we're saturated of this static shit already. Gimme an emergent experience instead. It could even be a simple dungeoncrawl, where you compete with half-dozen smart AI characters with quirks and dialogues, needs and goals of their own, that could finish the dungeon ahead of you when you blink it, ally or betray you if their priorities say such, and with enough richness of behavior to stay fresh after the 100th playthrough. All in ironman with no reload.

Idea: Make it a Lady planar maze with only one exit and key and the first to reach it gets back to Sigil while the rest is trapped forever. Make it a continuation of sorts to Torment where your companions were dumped on a maze after TNO dismissal. You can choose between original companions (Morte , Dakkon , Annah, etc) and other NPCs that made contact with the TNO (Ebb Creaknees, that mage grandma, Mantuok, etc). Have factions of previously dumped inhabitants offering shelter, gear and info with different dispositions (a Sensate group that exaggerated in the booze? a Planewalkers Guild missing party?). DLC would add characters and gear from other Black Isle games (Sulik from Fallout, Nasrudin from Arcanum, HerDaelis from BG, a mini-gun, etc). Call it "Planescape: Lady's Ire".

Oh shit I'm a genius. :smug:
 
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epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
Do we really want a good AI though? People love to bitch about bad AIs in games, but I bet even most codexers would ragequit when faced with opponents who play defensively, kite them, abuse chokepoints and line-of-sight shenanigans.

Yes. If better AI makes someone ragequit, that's not a bad thing. That's just separating wheat from chaff.

Those examples are not evolutionary game AI in any way, just a few sensible combat behaviors for classic state machine AI. Take Underrail for example. It has AI types with behaviors like that - human soldiers who attempt to break LoS after shooting at you, creatures that kite by spitting poisonous spikes at you and then keeping distance, other creatures that play defensively with a handful of behaviors (sneak up to victim, poison/paralyze it with their sting, retreat and hide, sneak back and attack helpless victim). The best is thing is that there's nothing new or special about any of these, they don't require endless resources or new tech to achieve. Basic game design and programming competence is enough.

Maybe the human intelligence of RPG devs and players alike has gone down the drain, but there are always glimmers of hope.

Yes, but... Dijkstra algorithm is the most cost effective search for the shortest path in a graph, but it is not a necessary basis. A* requires specified nodes and weighted edges, therefore "potential field" path planning are used when such a graph does not exist and cannot be made.

A* fails when all entities are able to move simultaneously as you can see in Pillars of Eternity when a paladin is running around enemies in circles instead of attacking closest.

Are you guys current computer science students by any chance? Nobody else would nitpick algorithm details... The point was that game AI hasn't seen any significant improvements after home computers became powerful enough for real-time pathfinding that doesn't suck (see early RTS games for examples that suck), and A* is the industry standard for that. Implementation details vary.

However, there have been some smaller improvements. Probably fairly large improvements from gamedev perspective.
Back in 2005, FEAR did something new. Basically it added another layer of abstraction on top of the industry standard finite state machine AI to make implementation of complex NPC AIs faster & easier. But honestly, from player perspective, FEAR's AI (and all newer games using similar systems) don't do anything particularly impressive compared to older A* and FSM systems. FEAR also had a simple squad controller on top of the individual AIs, but there weren't any complex behaviors programmed in it - any seemingly complex squad behavior was just emergent happenstance. NPC maneuvered to flank you? Only because it couldn't find valid cover/route elsewhere. And they hyped that system to death...

STALKER was another game with overhyped AI system. Its ambitious ALife system was completely neutered before anything was released to the public. Most of the games' AI behaviors come from smart terrains that give NPCs tasks. Unlike marketing/hype claimed, AI stalkers can't live and progress through the zone like the player does. At all. They simply get assigned tasks by these smart terrains - campfires, faction bases, sleeping bags, etc. And at some point during early development STALKER SHOC was pushed towards more scripted storyline, less sandbox. My understanding is that this meddling was publisher demands, but don't quote me on that. So they had to implement space restrictors where the AI couldn't go and do its thing before the player has progressed through the storyline in that area. IIRC the only special thing the ALife system ended up doing was its AI LOD system - it allowed real-time simulation of all NPCs in the entire zone by switching far-away characters to simpler simulation mode. I think it was the first game with complex level geometry to do this, but older X universe games had similar AI LOD system allowing real-time simulation of far larger number of AI actors.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
Yes, but... Dijkstra algorithm is the most cost effective search for the shortest path in a graph, but it is not a necessary basis. A* requires specified nodes and weighted edges, therefore "potential field" path planning are used when such a graph does not exist and cannot be made.

A* fails when all entities are able to move simultaneously as you can see in Pillars of Eternity when a paladin is running around enemies in circles instead of attacking closest.

Are you guys current computer science students by any chance? Nobody else would nitpick algorithm details... The point was that game AI hasn't seen any significant improvements after home computers became powerful enough for real-time pathfinding that doesn't suck (see early RTS games for examples that suck), and A* is the industry standard for that. Implementation details vary.
By any chance yes, and nitpicking would be comparing computing costs (here running time only) (like G=(V,E) with max running time of Omega(|V|^2) with optimal runnnig time of Omega(|V| log (|V|) + |E|) for the A*) of differnt viable solutions and determine which search algortihm (best-first search) would fit the best a specific scenario. And yes my graduation profile was Intelligent Systems (AI) with specialisation in Robotics and Navigation and Graphics.

However, there have been some smaller improvements. Probably fairly large improvements from gamedev perspective.
Back in 2005, FEAR did something new. Basically it added another layer of abstraction on top of the industry standard finite state machine AI to make implementation of complex NPC AIs faster & easier. But honestly, from player perspective, FEAR's AI (and all newer games using similar systems) don't do anything particularly impressive compared to older A* and FSM systems. FEAR also had a simple squad controller on top of the individual AIs, but there weren't any complex behaviors programmed in it - any seemingly complex squad behavior was just emergent happenstance. NPC maneuvered to flank you? Only because it couldn't find valid cover/route elsewhere. And they hyped that system to death...

STALKER was another game with overhyped AI system. Its ambitious ALife system was completely neutered before anything was released to the public. Most of the games' AI behaviors come from smart terrains that give NPCs tasks. Unlike marketing/hype claimed, AI stalkers can't live and progress through the zone like the player does. At all. They simply get assigned tasks by these smart terrains - campfires, faction bases, sleeping bags, etc. And at some point during early development STALKER SHOC was pushed towards more scripted storyline, less sandbox. My understanding is that this meddling was publisher demands, but don't quote me on that. So they had to implement space restrictors where the AI couldn't go and do its thing before the player has progressed through the storyline in that area. IIRC the only special thing the ALife system ended up doing was its AI LOD system - it allowed real-time simulation of all NPCs in the entire zone by switching far-away characters to simpler simulation mode. I think it was the first game with complex level geometry to do this, but older X universe games had similar AI LOD system allowing real-time simulation of far larger number of AI actors.
Fear was better them most of the products in its time, but it made also many shitty things, like turning a table for cover and hiding behind it even when the turned table was only reaching to agent knees. I never got the play STALKER despite owning it.
Mostly the "AI" is overhyped in such projects.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,781
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Evan if STALKER' ALife ultimately fell short of its original goals, it's still the most impressive thing I've seen on the matter. You could track a Chimera by the corpses it leaves on the way, you could be given a quest to take a package with someone and when you arrive at the location the person got away (or is there but killed by some beast), you had animals and stalkers seeking daily needs or agendas (and bandits preying on the later), etc. besides having your attitudes tracked by factions (so the more you kill/help individuals of each group, the others will react accordingly), all this in an emergent, dynamic way. At some points there can even be other stalkers beating you for artifacts and you having to negotiate with them (or killing and robbing their corpses) for getting said artifacts.

Honestly, STALKER makes it's world more alive than any self-titled RPG I've ever seen, be it Bethesdan, Biowarian, Black Islander, Lord Britisher, or whatever.
 
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Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,006
Do we really want a good AI though? People love to bitch about bad AIs in games, but I bet even most codexers would ragequit when faced with opponents who play defensively, kite them, abuse chokepoints and line-of-sight shenanigans.
This is exactly the point. People already bitch about it when the AI uses guerilla tactics against them, skirmishing in undefended areas and constantly probing for weak points. People want to smash doomstacks into eachother and have epic battles, not micromanage 20 squads, each having a tiny, nigh irrelevant impact.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
You guys should first stop linking AI to emergent storytelling. That latter is a bullshit propagated by idiots like Todd Howard. I would rather have handcrafted encounters and well written story over shallow boring emergent stuff.

The real value of AI is in companion and enemy behavior on the battlefield. I wonder what Vault Dweller has to say about it.
Naturally I prefer hand-scripted content and hand-scripted AI that can use all the elements of the combat system in a reasonably intelligent way.
 

gaussgunner

Arcane
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
6,158
Location
ХУДШИЕ США
That can be done with scripting alone, and it's still incline. AI wouldn't necessarily improve it; AI would just be navigating a graph of dialogue and waypoints and shit to reach the NPC's nearest goal. Sounds hard to quantify. Might be easier to implement than scripting every possible outcome. Not as easy as railroading ofc.
There, you just hit it in the head. The premise that informed CRPGs was a railroad, for good or ill. And that's the reason we don't see AI in this genre. The expected environment is a frozen world waiting for players to come into viewing distance to wake up. What should an AI do in this? Meditate on the bleakness of life as a mook to be repeatedly slain by heroes?

Not every CRPG is a linear railroad like the Witcher or Shadowrun series where you're just acting out the fight scenes in a novella. Some are branching railroads where you act out fights in a CYOA. Some are more open-world (like JA2) but your goals are still defined by a prewritten story.

If there's no story it's not an RPG, it's a roguelike or strategy wargame.


There are great possibilities for AI in RPGs, at least in combat. Most attempts will fail, naturally; indie devs lack the experience; big devs have to meet release schedules or go broke; AI pros who venture into gamedev typically won't know what makes for good gameplay. Smarter AI isn't it. I want AIs with personality, i.e. distinctive tactical styles in NPCs/leaders I encounter repeatedly. I want AI that doesn't make noob mistakes, but does make the same kinds of miscalculations I do. I want AI that get distracted, overreacts, panics, takes risks, suddenly shifts from cautious to hail-mary mode, etc. I want the AI to surprise me.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
Honestly, STALKER makes it's world more alive than any self-titled RPG I've ever seen, be it Bethesdan, Biowarian, Black Islander, Lord Britisher, or whatever.

Oh yes, STALKER has one of the most dynamic and alive feeling game worlds. The "AI" is a major part of that illusion, even if much of the stuff is cruder than it appears. And oh yes it works far better in practice than Bethesda's radiant crap. All the radiant features feel very mechanical and repetitive, like it's just another categorical content system with very simplistic filler content. Does nothing to make the world feel alive and dynamic. Have other RPG devs even tried anything similar? I guess Ultima Online would count for Lord British, it had some cool dynamic systems that failed immediately when introduced to large masses of players.

But I'm eternally bitter that GSC Game World had to abandon the full sandbox A-Life. STALKER could've been so much more...
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,781
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
if there's no story it's not an RPG, it's a roguelike or strategy wargame
I contest that.

Darklands thrives on sheer exploration and swindling from one corner to the next of Holy Roman Empire. Same is true for some Ultimas (including Online), Might & Magics and Elder Scrolls entries where you can ignore the story and just vagabond through the world. Are those games not RPGs?

Also, and more importantly, RPGs were created as dungeon-crawlers in an emergent environment where stories were basically excuses. What defines an RPG is pretending you're there on the skin of an alter-ego, making decisions accordingly, and nothing else.

If anything, this current mold of babysitting the player through linear stories with the ocasional fight (where he's expected to win anyway) is just the mode of play that devs were able to replicate electronically. But they didnt do it because it's the only one - they do it because it's the easiest one. Historically, tabletop RPGs found a myriad gaming structures besides the typical railroad, from sandboxes to PvP to mission-based to character-driven drama etc.
 
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gaussgunner

Arcane
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
6,158
Location
ХУДШИЕ США
Simulations, meh.

Tabletop RPGs aren't railroaded because the DM/players make up the story as they go. CRPG developers have to write the whole story up front, complete with narrative and artwork. AI can't even dream of doing that. Take that away and you have a simulation sandbox with generic characters wander around picking fights just for the hell of it. Games like that are classified as RPGs by virtue of stats & skills & exploration mechanics, but they're on the fringes of the genre, and AI won't change that.
 

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