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Hearts of Iron 4 - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by GarfunkeL, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

    IHaveHugeNick
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    Adding oil as a resource has fucked this game completely. Oil should have been a disadvantage to the Axis, but the opposite has happened. Since oil is no longer needed just to build advanced units, Germany now builds an insane amount of tanks. After collapse of France, Germany just snowballs in an absurd way.

    Soviets simply can't defend, so every game is either autowin on Axis side, or mind-numbing grind to take out the fortress Germany.

    Yet another example that making things realistic isn't always the best idea. Requiring oil to build tanks may have been "gamey" mechanic, but at least it fucking worked. By making it more realistic faction balance became completely out of whack. You need to buff Soviets with sliders just to make it slightly less retarded, but even that barely does the job.
     
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  2. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    The German IC is in general just absurd, and since they have almost all other resources (this is in general what I feel is the problem with resources, a lot of it is just "and this country can do everything" sort of balancing).

    Fuel in general seems to be mostly a problem for everyone who isn't Germany, UK, or Kwa (well Kwa can just do whatever anyway). I also feel it rears its head much more in Kaiserreich, since KR has probably even worse resource balance than vanilla since it's never added prospecting or any other stopgap measure (hey, at least in BlackICE it feels like you are allowed and encouraged to build up and seize resources), and then you have frankly absurd National Ideas like the one Union of Britain get that increases base Refinery to Fuel gain several times over. (KR in general now has this weird antagonism towards letting factories be built)
     
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  3. HeroMarine Irenaeus

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    False, they just failed to balance a more realistic feature. That's why we mod.
     
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  4. Jonathan "Zee Cat Educated

    Jonathan "Zee Cat
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    still waiting for then to let me choose the composition of my air wings, aka having the possiblity of having a determined air wing with a specific variant of a plane while i use another more streamlined variant on another region. (Long range with slight lower agility or firepower in asia for example) while in europe i have variants with better agility/firepower but shorter range.
     
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  5. Life of the Party Arcane

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

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    Wrong fucking Elder Sign.
     
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  7. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

    IHaveHugeNick
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    The same problem occurs even with modded AI and in alternative history mods. So how are you fixing it with mods exactly?
     
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  8. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Yea it's also kind of a poor mechanic in that it's entirely binary. Either you have absolutely no reason to worry about fuel, or you're just fucked. Like, they added those fuel tank buildings? Those are totally fucking useless because truth is that in practise you have either a permanently full stockpile or you're empty or empty in a less than two months.

    Because of the nature of things like how naval war works, it's also a situation where you basically have to stay within the consumption limit. Kwa will have no problem because they have basically almost the entire oil production of the planet in HoI4, Germany doesn't have to worry about it because they have the IC to just build all the refineries they could ever want. It's only a problem that exists to constrain the options and viability of the countries that aren't designated to be above the mechanic.


    IMO the only mod that actually got the system working in a kind of neat way is Old World Blues, the Fallout mod, because the way war is focused almost entirely on land keeps a much more clear spectrum of things you might use them on and the ability to improve your Energy Cell capacity is much better designed in the tech tree and how you build infrastructure and buildings. And honestly, it only shows up truly in the Enclave submod, where it actually slots in perfectly with how Reformist path makes cores so you end up actually considering your construction process around balancing coring and energy production (short version, good guy Enclave cores by expanding an electricity grid, where each state costs -4 Electricity, so you have to eventually put in the work start building and researching power plants to keep energy cell gains up with what your expanding army of power armored grunts eats up), and how you are incentivized to operate a high-tech military. OWB in generally really benefits from the way it isn't afraid of being gamey and arcadey, and this is a notable example of it (heck if Kaiserreich team was behind the Enclave submod, the Califonia integration focus tree would probably take five years to slog through; heck it's a huge focus tree in the actual mod too, but it's designed to be wide rather than long and narrow).
     
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  9. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

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    Proper system would require a buildup of fuel reserve before a major offensive, but obviously that's not how it works at all. From what I saw when peaking through console, Germany is often out of fuel too. It's just that you don't need fuel to defend, so Red Army just crashes against advanced units built with Hitler superior IC. Likewise, any serious attack on German soil is a god awful boring because you need to grind down +5 years of production with 300 military factories. They never run out of equipment even late into the game.
    Heck, even the resistance mechanic in the next patch is meant to slow down Germany's IC a little bit. So they end up introducing another system entirely to balance the faulty fuel mechanics. :negative:

    There really isn't a way to fix it through mods. I just buff Soviets with sliders in most games and give them some PP through console at the start to increase their production. :negative:
     
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  10. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Really, the only country that actually has to engage with the fuel system is Japan, because of how much navies use and how they have no choice not to use the navy. It really shows how it doesn't work either, since stockpile is basically irrelevant, the % of need you can fill is the only thing that actually matters.

    (Then again Japan has the other thing that in HoI4 they don't really have a reason to go to war, because the only thing you find after invading China is that you were lied to about there being resources there)
     
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  11. Malakal Arcane

    Malakal
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    Fuel works quite well in MP. Also rubber is another balancing factor, especially in MP too where air war is vastly more important.

    In SP you most likely have unlimited resources as any major nation anyway so whats the point. You could argue that Romania produces too much oil and that synthetic production is too cheap/efficient maybe.
     
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  12. Space Satan Arcane

    Space Satan
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    [​IMG]
    Show Spoiler

    Hello, and welcome back to the next DevDiary for the upcoming DLC! Today, we will talk a bit about how we are going to represent Vichy and Free France during the war.

    Vichy France is perhaps the best example for what I like to call “trying to fit a history-shaped peg through a mechanics-shaped hole”. They were a puppet state of Germany by any reasonable metric - except they never formally joined the war. They weren’t at war with the Allies - and yet there were several battles between Allied and Vichy forces in Syria, Madagascar and most famously Dakar and during Operation Torch. Even after the battles were fought, however, Vichy France did not join the war, and the Vichy French troops engaged there were usually repatriated by the Allies after operations were over.

    Currently, the division between Vichy France and Free France is handled by creating a civil war in France and Germany puppeting the fascist side. This automatically solves a number of issues that come with the sandbox nature of the game, such as dividing the military the player built instead of relying on pre-scripted OoBs, making sure both sides start with the same technology base and so on. It does, however, immediately put Vichy into war with Free France and (usually), by extension, the Allies.

    This is somewhat accurate in the sense that there were engagements between Allies and Vichy France and Vichy France lost territory in those engagements. But there was never a formal state of war between Vichy France and the Allies, and the total contribution of Vichy French forces to the war in Russia amounted to a single regiment of volunteers. In fact, in a lot of ways, the Allies preferred Vichy France to de Gaulle, despite de Gaulle’s winning personality and great people skills.

    To really do this situation justice, we decided to make special focus trees to handle it.

    My design goals were to have

    • A way to separate France into a government-in-exile and a collaborating government in metropolitan France that did not require a gigantic ramshackle script system to handle all the edge cases

    • A Vichy France that remains neutral in the war for at least some time

    • A way for Vichy to become the “legitimate” France and even potentially join the Allies

    • A way to have Free France gain territories that were assigned to Vichy France when the whole thing was created, without bringing them into the war

    Thankfully, we now have the ability to essentially run the civil war creation effect without actually creating a civil war. This does split the country, reassign the military, split the stockpiles, give both sides the right technologies and so on and so forth. This makes the whole process a lot less painful and reduces the number of edge cases, because as far as the game is concerned, Free France and Vichy France both qualify as France under the right conditions.

    [​IMG]

    Another small change is that if you manage to get war support above 70%, a third option appears in the event about deciding between asking for an armistice or creating the Franco-British Union, allowing you to continue the fight. If you decide to surrender, the country is split between Vichy France and Free France, much as you are used to. Most overseas territories will initially go to Vichy France, as was historical, with Free France holding onto a few scattered island possessions. Both countries load a separate focus tree.

    Free France has two main storylines to follow. On the one hand, you’ll want to recover territories that are held by Vichy. For the purpose of making things more manageable, the French colonial holdings are separated into a number of larger areas instead of being separated by modern national or period-appropriate administrative borders. These areas are: Syria, North Africa, West Africa, Central Africa, Madagascar, and Indochina.

    [​IMG]

    Appealing to them directly through the focus has a chance to flip a few of them to your side, but the rest will have to converted by more direct means. One option is to promise the territory independence after the war, which has a chance to convert the territories and reduces resistance/increases compliance in the affected areas for the duration of the war. However, once the war is over, these areas will demand that you honor your commitment and let them go. If you refuse, you will quickly find yourself with a rather upset population resisting your administration, like France did historically in Indochina.

    Option two is to intervene militarily, in areas that you have access too. This takes the form of the border wars, allowing you (or, more likely, your allies) to take over territories from Vichy France without going into a full-blown war. Not all areas can be taken over by border wars - Madagascar doesn’t border any other state from which an intervention could be launched, so you’ll have to find a different way.

    [​IMG]

    The other large branch for Free France is establishing and improving the resistance working in France. Through a number of focuses, you can boost resistance targets all across occupied France and turn the entire area into a hotbed of resistance - even if you do have to make some unlikely alliances between Communists and Industrialists.

    Once you have recovered the homeland and taken back Paris, you can form the Provisional Government, which reloads the original French focus tree. Should Vichy France still exist by this point without being at war with you, you get a decision to demand reunification.

    [​IMG]

    On the opposite side, the biggest change is that Vichy France is no longer considered to be a puppet of Germany. Puppets are heavily weighted towards joining their master’s faction and towards following a call to arms if in a faction. I briefly considered making a special puppet level that could refuse a call to arms and set a number of scripted AI strategies to make it do so, but decided that a one-off puppet level was easily as much of a hack solution than just not having Vichy be a puppet in the first place and handle its relationship with Germany through other ways.

    As Vichy France, your big task is to complete the “National Revolution” to transform French society away from the republicanism that has brought them to this point. At the same time, you will want to rebuild the military and, of course, try to hold onto your colonial empire. In the moment of surrender, you are saddled with a massive 20% consumer goods penalty that represents the occupation costs levied on France by the Germans.

    [​IMG]

    To reduce these costs, you can strike a number of deals with the Germans, starting with giving them basing rights (historically done to help German support for an uprising in Iraq), later you can reduce your penalties further by offering to produce aircraft parts for the Germans (reducing production cost for German planes) and sending workers to Germany (giving them a production bonus).

    Once you have finished the National Revolution, you can ask for Germany to return your occupied territories, and, should they agree, you join the Axis and reload the original focus tree with the branch towards the fascist alliance with Germany unlocked. If Germany refuses, you can then attempt to reconcile with the Free French, unify and re-join the war on the allied side if de Gaulle agrees (loading the original focus tree with the right-wing democratic branch unlocked), or you can decide to regain your honor by yourself and declare war directly, in which case you load the original focus tree with the branch towards the Latin Entente unlocked.

    Of course, the Case Anton decision for Germany remains, so you might want to make very sure that you hold onto North Africa, lest Germany decides that you can’t be trusted.

    That is all for today. Next week we will talk about some other changes coming in 1.8 Husky.
     
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  13. Space Satan Arcane

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    DD: Garrison rework
    Show Spoiler

    Its Wednesday, so you know what that means. Today we will discuss a feature previously alluded to, the Policing Garrison rework.

    The main thrust of this rework is the removal of the resistance suppression garrison mission from the map, and the addition of off-map suppression garrisons. This change is being made to increase performance, as well as remove what we feel is a tedious part of the game. Suppression garrison forces will now be managed through occupation laws and a choice in what division template will be used to provide suppression. The system will then distribute manpower and equipment to states with resistance. The old, defense-related, garrison missions will persist and will be named to “Area Defense.” This should result in a much cleaner map endgame. No more prebuilding and shuffling around horseybois.

    [​IMG]

    This feature is tied heavily to the rework of resistance. As we mentioned previously, resistance will no longer be so easily controlled. Active resistance will regularly attack defense forces and disrupt their local state. These attacks will result in a small but continuous loss in manpower and equipment. This should help to curb the power of a world conquest run (IE historical Germany).

    [​IMG]

    The higher the resistance level, the higher the suppression requirement. Suppression requirement is the main factor that controls how much garrison is needed. A secondary factor that controls how much garrison is needed is the occupation law. Different occupation laws will have modifications to suppression needs per for each percent of resistance. And finally, the player will be able to choose what type of garrison template they are using.

    [​IMG]

    The player will be able to design garrison forces as they always have, using the division designer. All existing templates available for recruitment will also be available to assign as a division template. The template being used will be able to be controlled at the national level, occupied nation level, and state level. A state may in turn use fractions of a division to meet suppression requirements.

    [​IMG]

    To manage these interactions, we have expanded the occupied territories menu to give a breakdown on resistance, compliance, and what forces the player has stationed in occupied territory they control. In the same menu the player can choose occupation law, and what division template is being used for policing garrison work. Different requirements in manpower and equipment will be shown when choosing which template to use. The player may choose to have no garrison present as well, but this will result in a huge boost to local resistance.

    [​IMG]

    When designing garrison templates, there will be a couple of factors to consider. Some existing battalions will have their suppression values reworked and battalions with hardness will have bonus to resisting damage taken from resistance activity. The result of this is that battalions with hardness will be more expensive materially, but provide protection for your manpower. If manpower is more of a long-term concern than production, there is a benefit to using battalions with hardness. If manpower is not a concern, using low hardness battalions in your division template is probably a good idea. This will also give some new life to light tanks that have found themselves collecting dust in your stockpile

    That's all for this week. See youse guys next week.
     
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  14. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    That's fairly interesting, at least the occupation sitch should be more interesting or at least interesting tools for modders.
     
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  15. Life of the Party Arcane

    Life of the Party
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    I'm surprised that there's ten trillion mods for anything and everything including countless alternate history scenarios but there's no a 1918 mod.
     
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  16. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    1918 mod as in an interwar mod? Because there is a WW1 mod, and it sort of kind of has interwar sort of maybe kinda covered.
     
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  17. Life of the Party Arcane

    Life of the Party
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    Yeah, from the November Armistice to the rise of Hitler. The Roaring Twenties.

    I know there is the Great War mod – and there is also The Coming Storm which should have a 1918 scenario – but I was hoping for a mod focused on various revolutions and dissolutions of German, Austrian, Russian and Ottoman empires. Also Prohibition.

     
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  18. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    Personally I figure the main consideration is the long wait to the "main event" and the number of variables that can make it go completely off the rails if you intend to go all the way to WW2. I would say it'd be a neat idea either way since the Big War stuff is not quite as varied in its offerings as it could be.
     
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  19. holla_cabezas_de_mierda Arcane

    holla_cabezas_de_mierda
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    in the actual war I think German production actually continued to increase as the war went on despite the bombings etc, and by quite a bit even if I recall from albert speers book I read a long time ago
     
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  20. Space Satan Arcane

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    It was really annoying to distribute hundreds of NKVD divisions across Europe and Middle East. You have to cover almost every province with them. Garrison order helped a little but you still had to assign garrisonable provinces so it just reduced amount of clicks a little. All that pandemic resistance growth was more annoying than harmful, so nw system is clearlly better if you can just assign MP divisions to reduce resistance and act off-map, instead of shuffling and clicking half of the globe.
     
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  21. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    Yea, it should also allow for organizing coastal defense more handily if you don't have to account for them doubling as resistance suppression.

    (Come to think of it, I haven't seen any ritualistic mass suicide via sea transport on part of coastal defense garrison units in a looooong time)
     
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  22. Life of the Party Arcane

    Life of the Party
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    [​IMG]
     
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  23. The Brazilian Slaughter Arcane

    The Brazilian Slaughter
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    8 W A Y S P A N I S H C I V I L W A R
     
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  24. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    Thousand Week Reich also looks like a p fun mod that I'm looking forward to.

    But The New Order is by far the most ambitious thing done with Paradox modding.
     
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