Heresy: There is no reason to expect a 2D-isometric engine again. But now we do have one...

[Dexter]

But 2D games totally don't look like shit

That's why I took games from the last 3 years produced with amazung 3D graphics technology of today OP was talking about on amazung hardware and not Wolfenstein 3D, System Shock and Descent.

As soon as 3D graphics actually resemble the concept art they are built off of instead of some retarded styropor models we can talk about it. Till then hand-drawn backgrounds and pre-renders with direct concept art elements will always look better.

 

[made]

People that are unaware call the IE games "hand-painted", which just shows how pretty they are, but nobody cares how the 2D image is made, just that in the game it will be a 2D image, and not 3D, textured objects.

And why is that? Because after two decades of butt-ugly 3D games people associate it with blocky models and lowres textures (see Dexter's post). If 3D could look just like the 2D images people have come to love they wouldn't care either. I believe we are finally at the point where it would be feasible, as games like TW2 prove, so why don't we see more games with such high quality graphics? Cost? Consoles? It should be interesting to see what a guy like the Stasis dev has to say, because I doubt anyone here has the expertise to make a well founded judgment.

 

[MetalCraze]

That's why I took games from the last 3 years

You mean from the last 3 years on your shitty Xbox 360?

What about those PC games you consoletards never play for a change?

And these are not even shooters.

 

[FeelTheRads]

That's why I took games from the last 3 years produced with amazung 3D graphics technology of today

Yeah, see, that only gives Skyway more reason to say you don't know about the amazing 3D graphics he's talking about. Simon the Sorcerer, MI4 and NWN were not released even close to the last 3 years.

 

[Raapys]

You'll always be able to make prettier pre-rendered( i.e. 2D) backgrounds than you will a 3D environment. There are many reasons for that. Whether it's better or not in a game setting is debatable though. I think much of the skepticism for 3D top-down/isometric stems from the fact that there hasn't really been many good-looking ones. The games we've had have also usually had other annoying factors; highly limited zoom level, sluggish/slow character movement/responsiveness, crappy camera, poor UI's, etc. Those obviously aren't directly linked with 3D, but it's usually part of the baggage anyway.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And these are not even shooters.

Nor are they RPGs. Get back to me when you find an RPG that looks even close to that and doesn't play like a piece of shit (NWN2).
Could be, maybe, it's possible, it's doable...it's just bullshit. Let me see it.

 

[MetalCraze]

Nor are they RPGs

So what? Maybe this has something to do with cRPGs not being made anymore?

So strategy games where you control a bunch of units just like in a cRPG will have to do.

You'll always be able to make prettier pre-rendered( i.e. 2D) backgrounds than you will a 3D environment

I wouldn't be so sure

Le 2D

Le 3D

 

[Ion Prothon II]

I believe we are finally at the point where it would be feasible, as games like TW2 prove, so why don't we see more games with such high quality graphics? Cost? Consoles? It should be interesting to see what a guy like the Stasis dev has to say, because I doubt anyone here has the expertise to make a well founded judgment.

We will see that, if it's costs or consoles- just a year after the release of the next nextgen consoles: Xbox 720 and PS4.

I'd say it's about costs. Going beyond a mediocre quality require too much effort and the audience don't give a shit about it. Shader effects and color manipulations are to hide the imperfections, not to make things pretty.

 

[Dexter]

That's why I took games from the last 3 years produced with amazung 3D graphics technology of today

Yeah, see, that only gives Skyway more reason to say you don't know about the amazing 3D graphics he's talking about. Simon the Sorcerer, MI4 and NWN were not released even close to the last 3 years.

That was a separate tangent I went on in the middle for publishers ruining certain genres because they had to push for shitty 3D, SWOTOR, Derp Age 2, Tales/Sam&Max are all 2009+

You mean from the last 3 years on your shitty Xbox 360?

What about those PC games you consoletards never play for a change?

And these are not even shooters.

I haven't ever been a consoletard so fuck you too, but you did a pretty shit job at having a single convincing example.
Most of your screens are filled with barren hills lacking any sort of details and shit texture jobs with constantly repeating models of the same 2-3 trees, buildings or units with a different alignment. If that's the best you can do in regards to real-time 3D renders looking close to concept arts or drawings with lots of unique elements and level of detail don't try again.

If you want to get anywhere close at least try games like Witcher 2 and Dark Souls with rather diverse looks or DX11 capable shit with Tessellation and newest Shader Model, but those won't look like the concept art they've used to create them or like drawings either.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Most of your screens are filled with barren hills lacking any sort of details and shit texture jobs with constantly repeating models of the same 2-3 trees, buildings or units with a different alignment. If that's the best you can do in regards to real-time 3D renders looking close to concept arts or drawings with lots of unique elements and level of detail don't try again.

The Arthur game has absolutely shit terrain but HURR you can see in the distance.
The others are easy... everybody finds likable a realistic look. But hey, his point was from the start that video cards > artists. So there you go. Get some plants and some high-resolution textures and you make "awesome 3D".

 

[MetalCraze]

Most of your screens are filled with barren hills

It appears that the hipster newfag not only does not know when games he posted screenies came out - but he is also pretty blind.

with constantly repeating models of the same 2-3 trees

You mean like in Baldur's Gate? Or Stronghold? Or Age of Empires?

buildings or units with a different alignment

True. In 2D Sim City games those 3.5 buildings face the same direction.

If that's the best you can do in regards to real-time 3D renders looking close to concept arts or drawings with lots of unique elements and level of detail don't try again.

Please tell me about how you play concept arts and drawings. Because 2D games don't look anything like concept arts either.

If you want to get anywhere close at least try games like Witcher 2 and Dark Souls

Hahahaha. Especially Dark Souls which looks worse than Dragon Age 2

Goddamn you are one fucking consoletard

 

[Commissar Draco]

What is cost of 3D Graphics? Cause if it is much more than 2D expect streamlining and dumbing dawn galore in order to sell more copies to consoltards to pay those shiny graphics and full voice acting. Witcher 2 was done in Eastern Europe don't expect Kwan programers to work for Potatoes, and game costing 10 millions of Jewgold is highest celling for most indies even powered by Kickstarters anyway.

So for reasonable budget our niche market can efford we can have either games with cheper 2D, wast word and intresting plot and writing or Whackamole like Twicher2 was (only 3 times more expensive and dumber cause done in KWA).... And once our niche would be seen as profitable for Jews from EA, Activision, Zionmax we will loose all.

 

[MetalCraze]

The Arthur game has absolutely shit terrain but HURR you can see in the distance.

Which is more than what can be said about glorious 2D games with cool terrain like that RPG BG2

or PS:T

3D is copy pasted. Unlike Arcanum

Shit I guess I should've posted something from early 90s then maybe? Maybe then it looked better?!1

Maybe we should look at Fallout which totally didn't have 2-3 trees?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Le 2D

Have another look. It's as much 2D as is your second image.

or PS:T

Actually, yes, in both BG2 and PST the terrain is much more detailed than that blurry brown shit that's smeared everywhere on those hills.

 

[Ion Prothon II]

Nice try Skyway. Now tell us how this awsum visual presentation makes worse or better video games, which are in theory boardgames on steroids.
Watching amazingly detailed units in RTS, from a perspective as if it was a TPP shooter? That's really a vital feature. Is it worth anything if I zoom out to see the battlefield? The view system, will it force me to manipulate the camera all the time, to play normally?

 

[Tolknaz]

For once i actually agree with Skyway. 3D covered up with various shitfilters and prerendered into 2D with limited color palette does not look better than 3D (And hasn't since at least NWN2). The main reason why it was used in the first place (performance) is not valid anymore. The lot of you need to pull your heads out of your arses.

 

[IDtenT]

The view system, will it force me to manipulate the camera all the time, to play normally?

ITT: We learn Codexers can't use their mouse.

A 3D engine is superior to a 2D engine as far as visual quality and capabilities are concerned. 2D engines however allow you to make art, as is the case in many point-and-click adventure games. There is absolutely zero reason to use a 2D backgrounds in an isometric RPG over a 3D engine with fixed rotation options. That is, if the game's visual style is not artistic or cartoony, both of which do not apply to Eternity.

 

[Dexter]

You mean like in Baldur's Gate? Or Stronghold? Or Age of Empires?

True. In 2D Sim City games those 3.5 buildings face the same direction.

Sure does look mighty shit. Lacks all teh brown hills & shit and too many different objects make me all confused.

Please tell me about how you play concept arts and drawings. Because 2D games don't look anything like concept arts either.

You want me to explain to you how Adventure games and a lot of isometric games work or anything that goes with a more artistic style and uses drawn 2D components instead of all-out 3D models now?

Hahahaha. Especially Dark Souls which looks worse than Dragon Age 2

It's one of the games with closest 3D representation of the original concepts.

And it sure does...

Goddamn you are one fucking consoletard

Fuck you too.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And hasn't since at least NWN2

And this invalidated any point you might have had. NWN2 looks absolutely hideous.

Also, lol at 3D covered with shitfilters (examples, plz?) prerendered into 2D. 3D covered with shitfilters (pretty much everything today) and left 3D is much better, huh?

 

[Turjan]

Just wanted to be sure. I found your desire to make real- time rotations in ortho a bit confusing.

What's the point of this, anyway? Except some kind of fetishism. I wonder if you're spinning things around too, when you play a board game.

Regarding camera rotations per se, I was relieved when these became standard. In IE games, there were often maps that were hard to navigate because of obstructed views or paths that were not obvious where they actually went. Games like Divine Divinity were even worse in that regard. Being able to rotate the camera as in true 3D would have solved these issues easily.

3D games were very ugly in their early days. Stuff like M&M6-8 used more or less the worst of both worlds. However, I liked the freedom of movement in those games better.

I don't mind 2D games. Actually, the last game I just played was 2D (an adventure game). I don't see anything inherently better in engines as the Infinity one as compared to modern 3D engines, though.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The view system, will it force me to manipulate the camera all the time, to play normally?

ITT: We learn Codexers can't use their mouse.

A 3D engine is superior to a 2D engine as far as visual quality and capabilities are concerned. 2D engines however allow you to make art, as is the case in many point-and-click adventure games. There is absolutely zero reason to use a 2D backgrounds in an isometric RPG over a 3D engine with fixed rotation options. That is, if the game's visual style is not artistic or cartoony, both of which do not apply to Eternity.

Are you sure you don't mean that there's absolutely zero reason to use a 3D engine in an isometric RPG? I never felt the need to rotate the camera in an isometric RPG, in fact rotating camera usually fucks up everything, so what else does a 3D engine give me if the camera is fixed? What's its use?

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Sorry bro, but the backgrounds in IE games were 3D maps pre-rendered from a fixed perspective.

This is a stupid fucking argument. All art is inherently "3D" (in a visual sense), as long as it has perspective. It doesn't matter if you painted it on a canvas by hand, or you used a 3D engine to build the image. But if the game down't allow you to interact with the third dimension, then its 2D (in an interactive sense, which is what we are talking about here). Fucking twerps learn to reason.

See bro, posts written in reply to other posts have this thing called context, which sometimes allows you to understand their meaning better. You should look into this, might help you to move past Plato in your philosophical readings.

 

[MetalCraze]

Sure does look mighty shit. Lacks all teh brown hills & shit and too many different objects make me all confused.

BG and PS:T screens you posted look really low-detail. Empty rooms with zero detail chars.
Now next screenies are better because they are too low res to see anything. Another great advantage of 2D.

Should've resized BG screenies to 320x200 - would've looked just as good.

You want me to explain to you how Adventure games and a lot of isometric games work or anything that goes with a more artistic style and uses drawn 2D components instead of all-out 3D models now?

No please explain to me why 2D games look nothing like concept arts and often much worse than their modern 3D counterparts.

It's one of the games with closest 3D representation of the original concepts.

Those concepts must be really shitty then because on your screens Dark Souls looks like a bunch of brown boxes.

And you say Dragon Age 2 graphics suck? Are you joking?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Empty rooms

How many 3D games have that amount of details?

Now next screenies are better because they are too low res to see anything. Another great advantage of 2D.

Guess if those had a high-resolution mod they would have been too empty as well. Missing the TONS of awesome detailed 3D characters you see everywhere otherwise.

 

[MetalCraze]

How many 3D games have that amount of details?

Much more than 2D games that have that amount of details.
Which is exactly what? An empty floor with a low-res copypasted texture? A couple of tables? Characters that have no faces? A bunch of columns? And you can't even interact with those objects, can't push them, can't break them. And the size of those areas? Loadscreens every fucking 50 meters.

Impressive, very impressive.

Guess if those had a high-resolution mod they would have been too empty as well. Missing the TONS of awesome detailed 3D characters you see everywhere otherwise.

Try to stretch that screenshot to at least 20" monitor and tell me about how good looking it is.

I can resize a screenshot of Crysis 3 to 600x400 and it will look even better too.



3D games have nothing on that glorious 2D detail!

Just look at those highly detailed 2D models!
Just look at the face of that guy in 2D screenshot. And his clothes are shining with great pre-rendered 2D detail! What can a shitty 2007 game say to that?