Incline Hey hey people, it's the SsethTzeentach thread

[Citizen]

Regarding the Heroes of Might and Magic series, why no love for 4? Is it a bad game? Even when compared to even 5?

5 isn't a bad game, it has a pretty solid gameplay which is basically 3 with more fluff and different initiative system. It's visual style (edgy 3d anime/warcraft3) and visual clutter on a strategic map that are terrible.

4 is not only ugly, but also features very questionable gameplay decisions that completely break the trusty homm game formula. Some people claim that there's a great game somwhere underneath it, bust it's mostly weirdos that "play it for ots amazing writing"

Remember Spazz Maticuz?

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

4 is not only ugly, but also features very questionable gameplay decisions that completely break the trusty homm game formula.

Ah, yes, "awesome trusty formula" that should be repeated until nausea from sequel to sequel until normal people will start question "is it really worth buying a sequel if it's fucking same?"...
FIFA and COD doing that for decades and sells shitload copies, but is it really good path for HoMM? I don't think so.
NWC maybe died, but they at least tried something new instead cowardly clinging to opinion of bunch of overreacting autists, who probably just mental ill and need cell with soft walls (opinion based on observation of some "critique" of HoMM 4 that I have seen on forums)
Anyway, NWC is dead and HoMM died with them (despite of what corporate necromancers from Ubisoft would say). Amen.

 

[Farewell into the night]

Anyway, NWC is dead and HoMM died with them (despite of what corporate necromancers from Ubisoft would say). Amen.

HoMM will never die! It's spirit is with us.

 

[OctavianRomulus]

Like I said in another thread, I think 3 and 5 (especially with their unofficial expansion packs) are the best and I have a hard time choosing between the two. I think a lot of the hate H5 gets is because it was terribly unpolished before TOTE. I played it right from the beginning but once H5 TOTE came out I never looked back. I don't even remember how non-TOTE Heroes 5 is because the last time I played it vanilla was like 15 years ago (!!!!). Both games have unique flaws and strengths so I think they are actually complementary to eachother.

I really like the 3D WoW graphics of 5 but I think every Heroes game should have a completety different art style from the last one, shuffle creatures a bit (Centaur went from Warlock to Rampart) as well as have towns unique to that game (Cove, Dwarves etc.) to give players reasons to play all of them. On the art side, I really wish they returned to the pre-rendered graphics of 3. If done right, they could be truly timeless and on top of that they could also port the game to mobile devices. Heroes is the perfect game to play on your tablet while you are on the bus or train.

 

[Citizen]

Ah, yes, "awesome trusty formula" that should be repeated until nausea from sequel to sequel until normal people will start question "is it really worth buying a sequel if it's fucking same?"...

Isn't that the reason why people are buying sequels? I want more of the same BUT better, not a completely different game in the same setting.

I'm not saying the games in a series should be completely the same, but taking the same formula and improving on it. HoMM4 gameplay is garbage compared to previous games, it seems like like they tried to rip off AoW more than continue making heroes, but succeded in neither

 

[OctavianRomulus]

Ah, yes, "awesome trusty formula" that should be repeated until nausea from sequel to sequel until normal people will start question "is it really worth buying a sequel if it's fucking same?"...

Isn't that the reason why people are buying sequels? I want more of the same BUT better, not a completely different game in the same setting.

I'm not saying the games in a series should be completely the same, but taking the same formula and improving on it. HoMM4 gameplay is garbage compared to previous games, it seems like like they tried to rip off AoW more than continue making heroes, but succeded in neither

Maybe they could have a couple of towns that deviate a bit from the usual Heroes formula like Warhammer 2 did with some of its factions. Perhaps there could be a Thief town where heroes can hide on the strategic map based on a special skill and you have lots of weak but stealthy creatures. It could also have a special retreat function for hit and run attacks.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Ah, yes, "awesome trusty formula" that should be repeated until nausea from sequel to sequel until normal people will start question "is it really worth buying a sequel if it's fucking same?"...
FIFA and COD doing that for decades and sells shitload copies, but is it really good path for HoMM? I don't think so.
NWC maybe died, but they at least tried something new instead cowardly clinging to opinion of bunch of overreacting autists, who probably just mental ill and need cell with soft walls (opinion based on observation of some "critique" of HoMM 4 that I have seen on forums)
Anyway, NWC is dead and HoMM died with them (despite of what corporate necromancers from Ubisoft would say). Amen.

Different isn't necessarily bad. HoMM 4 is indeed very bad though.

 

[OctavianRomulus]

Ah, yes, "awesome trusty formula" that should be repeated until nausea from sequel to sequel until normal people will start question "is it really worth buying a sequel if it's fucking same?"...
FIFA and COD doing that for decades and sells shitload copies, but is it really good path for HoMM? I don't think so.
NWC maybe died, but they at least tried something new instead cowardly clinging to opinion of bunch of overreacting autists, who probably just mental ill and need cell with soft walls (opinion based on observation of some "critique" of HoMM 4 that I have seen on forums)
Anyway, NWC is dead and HoMM died with them (despite of what corporate necromancers from Ubisoft would say). Amen.

Different isn't necessarily bad. HoMM 4 is indeed very bad though.

Of course not but the question is what innovations make sense in a Heroes game and how do you innovate when the fanbase is extremely conservative?

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Of course not but the question is what innovations make sense in a Heroes game and how do you innovate when the fanbase is extremely conservative?

Honestly I don't really know, and maybe the best thing for HoMM4 would have just been a lick of paint and some new units. I just thought it was pretty autistic for that guy to REEEE at the idea that HoMM4 was littered with shit changes. Sitting down for the first time with Homm4 was a massive disppointment.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

Honestly I don't really know, and maybe the best thing for HoMM4 would have just been a lick of paint and some new units. I just thought it was pretty autistic for that guy to REEEE at the idea that HoMM4 was littered with shit changes. Sitting down for the first time with Homm4 was a massive disppointment.

Oh, so it's me autistic for questioning of "Homm4 bad cuz not Homm3" attitude and NOT you for simply repeating "Hom4 bad" argument all over again? It's seems you suddenly lost all logic and reason, just like most radical members of fanbase. You don't have any idea what changes would be better and yet you like robot repeat "Homm4 bad". Not to mention that opinions are subjective and if you call something shit - it doesn't mean that you absolutely right.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Care to tell me what's good about it?

 

[OctavianRomulus]

Honestly I don't really know, and maybe the best thing for HoMM4 would have just been a lick of paint and some new units. I just thought it was pretty autistic for that guy to REEEE at the idea that HoMM4 was littered with shit changes. Sitting down for the first time with Homm4 was a massive disppointment.

Oh, so it's me autistic for questioning of "Homm4 bad cuz not Homm3" attitude and NOT you for simply repeating "Hom4 bad" argument all over again? It's seems you suddenly lost all logic and reason, just like most radical members of fanbase. You don't have any idea what changes would be better and yet you like robot repeat "Homm4 bad". Not to mention that opinions are subjective and if you call something shit - it doesn't mean that you absolutely right.

For starters, the art is objectively bad. It's not like in H5 where the art is well done but you might not subjectively like it because it looks like Warcraft, it's just bad. Good art (not necessarily graphical fidelity) is vital in a Heroes game.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Oh, so it's me autistic for questioning of "Homm4 bad cuz not Homm3" attitude and NOT you for simply repeating "Hom4 bad" argument all over again?

I mean, Citizen made a fairly sedate point that Homm4 made some bad changes and you threw a hissy fit. I dunno what to call that other than autistic. It certainly wasn't a "logical and reasonable" response. Which you seem to think are virtuous qualities

 

[Citizen]

"Homm4 bad cuz not Homm3"

But it's bad not because it's different from the previous games. It has weird focus on hero units that just doesn't work in a "huge armies" type of game like HoMM (the same heroes-focused gameplay works nicely in AoW1-2 though), it has awful gridless tactical combat which is much worse than visually clear and predictable combat of HoMM1-3, the towns are forgettable uninspired mash-ups with no central theme, as opposed to previous games' memorable and thematically different. And to top it all: terrible eyeraping visual style

Ih has good OST and some maniacs from codex claim that the writing is good, but that's not enough for a strategy game to be good

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

I mean, Citizen made a fairly sedate point that Homm4 made some bad changes and you threw a hissy fit. I dunno what to call that other than autistic. It certainly wasn't a "logical and reasonable" response. Which you seem to think are virtuous qualities

My answer to him is perfectly fine and wasn't emotional too, but you started to be his Yes-man like he is disabled and can't "win Internet brawl" without any help. In result you showed yourself as the very stereotype I described in my post.

But it's bad not because it's different from the previous games. It has weird focus on hero units that just doesn't work in a "huge armies" type of game like HoMM (the same heroes-focused gameplay works nicely in AoW1-2 though), it has awful gridless tactical combat which is much worse than visually clear and predictable combat of HoMM1-3, the towns are forgettable uninspired mash-ups with no central theme, as opposed to previous games' memorable and thematically different. And to top it all: terrible eyeraping visual style

Ih has good OST and some maniacs from codex claim that the writing is good, but that's not enough for a strategy game to be good

Well finally some arguments and not just "Homm4 bad".

It has weird focus on hero units that just doesn't work in a "huge armies" type of game like HoMM (the same heroes-focused gameplay works nicely in AoW1-2 though)

I liked focus on hero, because hero should be more than weakling that waiting in background while his army fighting. Technically Homm setting partially medieval, it was common back in the day for leaders of army fighting together with troops. In homm 1 there was no stack splitting, I remember reading somewhere that it was connected to one thing - units in homm wasn't planned as army, their "count" was just a hp bar (I can be wrong though). So homm not always was about huge armies with over9000 skeletons, more like small party with very high hp members.

it has awful gridless tactical combat which is much worse than visually clear and predictable combat of HoMM1-3

Well I can agree on grid. I didn't liked lack of grid.

the towns are forgettable uninspired mash-ups with no central theme as opposed to previous games' memorable and thematically different

Complaining about lacking central theme off towns it's like comparing pagoda with church and complaining that they are different. Ofc Chaos town will be different from Order. Towns in Homm series was always mashups from different myths and legends, don't see your point.

Ih has good OST and some maniacs from codex claim that the writing is good, but that's not enough for a strategy game to be good

Yes ost is good and writing is good, for strategy part - imho HoMM series isn't deepest of turn based strategy games. Relative simplicity is what made it popular.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

For starters, the art is objectively bad. It's not like in H5 where the art is well done but you might not subjectively like it because it looks like Warcraft, it's just bad. Good art (not necessarily graphical fidelity) is vital in a Heroes game.

Art always subjective. If you intend to prove otherwise, bring me measurement system that allow to scale art proven by scientific methodology.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

you started to be his Yes-man

I simply agreed with him.

Your response was an over-reaction. He didn't say anything as extreme as "should be repeated until nausea from sequel to sequel until normal people will start question "is it really worth buying a sequel if it's fucking same?""

Just like calling me a Yes man for agreeing with someone, you jumped to an extreme for no reason. Autism.

 

[Citizen]

Art always subjective.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

When I say "Art always subjective" it doesn't mean that I love every single in game model, I meant that you should take in account that if someone calling some art good/bad it doesn't mean he/she correct because there some kind of "art" standard, it just mean that person did not liked it. Listen or not to someone's opinion on art is another question.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Art always subjective.

 

[Citizen]

When I say "Art always subjective" it doesn't mean that I love every single in game model, I meant that you should take in account that if someone calling some art good/bad it doesn't mean he/she correct because there some kind of "art" standard, it just mean that person did not liked it. Listen or not to someone's opinion on art is another question.

Yeah. I just linked a rainbow haired horse, something that looks like a gorilla that went full

and a moai statue on fire. All in the glorious 2002 prerendered 3d

Edited: Are you working on heroes 8 for Nival, Deadman?

 

[Citizen]

What I mean is: the fact that HoMM4 looks like this is because of a bad design, not some techical limitations. AoW1 also used prerendered 3d sprites but somehow looked amazing. (Even HoMM3 used prerendered 3d sprites, but most likely they retouched them a lot after rendering)

 

[OctavianRomulus]

For starters, the art is objectively bad. It's not like in H5 where the art is well done but you might not subjectively like it because it looks like Warcraft, it's just bad. Good art (not necessarily graphical fidelity) is vital in a Heroes game.

Art always subjective. If you intend to prove otherwise, bring me measurement system that allow to scale art proven by scientific methodology.

That's asking a lot tbh, you could write a whole library of books about that, which I will not do here, obviously. But to sum it up, art can be objectively good or bad but you can subjectively enjoy it or dislike it. Things like perspective, use of color, lighting and composition are objective. These things are really more like scientific principles, which if you know you can use to make art that does not represent reality but looks good. Heroes 4 simply looks muddy, with bad use of color and the sprites are obviously made after 3D models. If you want to make sprites out of 3D models you gotta work on them after or they look like plastic (that unicorn is the best example).

What I mean is: the fact that HoMM4 looks like this is because of a bad design, not some techical limitations. AoW1 also used prerendered 3d sprites but somehow looked amazing. (Even HoMM3 used prerendered 3d sprites, but most likely they retouched them a lot after rendering)

True, Heroes 1 came out in 1995 and it used outdated technology but I think it looks great and has aged a lot better than H4. The colors are a lot more vibrant for example

 

[†††]

hey hey people, it's the HoMM flame wars thread

 

[hello friend]

HOMM4 is ugly as sin and heroes participating in combat really didn't work at all, but there were several interesting things they tried to do with the combat system - simultaneous retaliations is one - and the caravan system were good innovations. One of the best scores of the series. Any unit being able to move around freely on the adventure map was the biggest mistake of all imo, because now you spend every turn wasting your time with a ton of weak stacks trying to pick everything up and scout as cheaply and efficiently as possible. When this was limited to heroes there is a higher initial investment and there is an upper limit on how many heroes you can have running around.

Some of the campaigns aren't bad. Gauldoth Half-Dead, the Solmyr plotline, these were both fairly decent. Spazz Maticus is not what people think of when they refer to HOMM4's interesting campaigns.