Human protagonist

[Sjukob]

Drago's topic has spurred me to create my own, to share my thoughts about something that has been bothering me for a long time. I don't really have a cohesive thought, so it's probably going to be a mess, but please stick with me.

I think that making protagonist a human is extremely overused and the abyss of unused opportunities to make him/her something different has already evolved to a black hole. The point is that it has become boring and stale, especially when you consider how many various species and races, and universes have been created. It would be interesting to observe alien cultures and life not from the point we used to (regular, familiar human) but instead as a member of said culture and may be even get some interesting alternative perspective on our own (human) society.

To me it really holds a lot of flavor and excellent ideas. I believe, I thought about it for the first time when I was playing xenomorph in AvP: "Why do we get to control non humans in games so rarely?". How about playing aliens in X-com and conquering the Earth instead or a diablo-like game where you control demons and bring destruction wherever you go ? Remember that savage lizard/orc/whatever archetype from fantasy worlds ? Let's make them protagonists so we can wage tribal wars, praise spirits and eat unfortunate human travelers. Or even better bring Cthulhu in our world, let's be cultists or monsters from the depths of the oceans, let's breed tentacles and transform people into fish abominations. But usually we get nothing and even if choice of race is purely cosmetic we still only recieve elves, dwarfs and orcs, almost never you are able to play something more exotic like reptiles, fish, plants, bugs and others.

Reasons why it doesn't get implemented are well understood I guess: big companies are not going for anything truly creative (it's not safe), casuals won't get the idea and indie developers lack time/money/skill. There is however one thing that I believe is not so obvious - the fucking object design. Do you know why a lot of alien species in games are of humanoid shape and those who are not don't get a lot of attention ? It's because creating stuff for non-anthropomorphic races and making it look adequate is an insane fucking work. For thousands of years humans have been developing various things to better suit their needs and it actually takes skill, hence why we have professionals in different fields. Creating a new non-humanoid race and creating tools, clothes, vehicles etc for them is just mindblowing. I do think it's possible but very difficult.

For some reason it's not true for platformers where various animals often take on main role. I guess it's to set more humorous mood. I just don't understand why aren't there more opportunities to play a non human character in serious games. And even if the task of creating a new race with unique culture and stuff is too difficult, it is possible to set for something more humble, like being a dragon. Very often we get to interact with them, but games where you can play one can counted on fingers.

Still, I hope situation changes and we will at least see some non standart appearances like fantasy lizards/plants paladins in full metal armor or fps from perspective of the slug-like creature that can only crawl.

And what do you think ?

 

[Neanderthal]

Various races and cultures of human species have hardly ever been explored or detailed in most games, off hand i can only think of Orlanthi from KoDP as being an alien culture that needed adjusting to.

Supposed other species are usually just poor representations of human races.

 

[Falksi]

Think it's a good shout & surprised how few games allow the player to experience it's universe/world from the alien perspective.

Plenty of games out there which I'd like to see played from "the other side".

 

[deama]

There was an MMO being developed a while back, in it you could play as a rock and could wait in ambush for unsuspecting humans to wonder by and ... BAM!
Sadly, it did not do well.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

the human protagonist is made so that any minus habens buying the product can identify more easily in him and enjoy it more.
it's not like the other races are underused, it's that humans sell hugely more.

 

[Baron Dupek]

same shit extremely overused and the abyss of unused opportunities

that sums up videogames these days perfectly

 

[DraQ]

Disclaimer:
For the purposes of this thread Elves and Dorfs are effectively humans in at least 99.99% of cases.
A protagonist is only meaningfully non-human if they, through story or (preferably also) gameplay, experience things that couldn't be experienced by a human (including humans in setting).

I think that making protagonist a human is extremely overused and the abyss of unused opportunities to make him/her something different has already evolved to a black hole. The point is that it has become boring and stale, especially when you consider how many various species and races, and universes have been created. It would be interesting to observe alien cultures and life not from the point we used to (regular, familiar human) but instead as a member of said culture and may be even get some interesting alternative perspective on our own (human) society.

Considering I am "roleplaying" a human 24/7 IRL and that games are about experiencing things you'll have no chance (or in some cases wouldn't want to) to experience IRL, I wholeheartedly concur.

To me it really holds a lot of flavor and excellent ideas. I believe, I thought about it for the first time when I was playing xenomorph in AvP: "Why do we get to control non humans in games so rarely?". How about playing aliens in X-com and conquering the Earth instead or a diablo-like game where you control demons and bring destruction wherever you go ? Remember that savage lizard/orc/whatever archetype from fantasy worlds ? Let's make them protagonists so we can wage tribal wars, praise spirits and eat unfortunate human travelers. Or even better bring Cthulhu in our world, let's be cultists or monsters from the depths of the oceans, let's breed tentacles and transform people into fish abominations. But usually we get nothing and even if choice of race is purely cosmetic we still only recieve elves, dwarfs and orcs, almost never you are able to play something more exotic like reptiles, fish, plants, bugs and others.

Quite ironically, even though you clearly recognize that this would open some really fresh and awesome opportunities, most of your listed cases are just simple inversions and villain protagonists.

How about, instead of telling the same old human story, just with protagonist and antagonist parts swapped, telling a different story?
Where your non-humans are some legitimate motivations, rather than simply being assholes or animalistic (or at best tired old cliche of noble savages)?

And more importantly, reflect inhumanity of your protagonist with something more than just blurb, boxart and assets used.

Note that being inhuman doesn't automatically mean being inhuman in every aspect.
It also doesn't mean that your story needs to be something bizarrely incomprehensible to your audience - even small things can work if you are willing to follow the train of logic (check Ursula Vernon's brilliant "Digger" comic for one of the finest possible examples of this).

Say, you want a dragon protagonist with humans as antagonists, but without being simple villain protagonist inversion burninating all the peasants. A very cliched setup you'll now try to sculpt into something less so.

Ask yourself what does your dragons think about human hordes multiplying like rabbits, upsetting your food sources and trying to zerg them in their sleep, murder them and take their stuff? Do your dragons have some sort of civilization? How does it work? What timescales do their operate at? Can they find use or for some sort of truce with humans? Maybe build their civilization on beings that can be sustained in greater numbers and have little nimble fingers that make them useful at creating shinies and all sorts of useful stuff? etc.

For an extant, if somewhat weaker example, you can take Soul Reaver, which uses the vampire/wraith protagonist rather interestingly both in terms of story and gameplay.

There is however one thing that I believe is not so obvious - the fucking object design. Do you know why a lot of alien species in games are of humanoid shape and those who are not don't get a lot of attention ? It's because creating stuff for non-anthropomorphic races and making it look adequate is an insane fucking work. For thousands of years humans have been developing various things to better suit their needs and it actually takes skill, hence why we have professionals in different fields. Creating a new non-humanoid race and creating tools, clothes, vehicles etc for them is just mindblowing. I do think it's possible but very difficult.

That's more of an opportunity than a hurdle:
You can reexamine what we take for granted while also creating tons of minuscule details to help weave your unique lore and visual style from and get them effectively for free as they logically follow from your characters' biology and physics, while also cementing your reputation as creative and startlingly original creator. What's there not to like?

Also you get +10 to sales to furries.

For some reason it's not true for platformers where various animals often take on main role. I guess it's to set more humorous mood.

I'd rather say it's because there is simply very little overlap between plausibly human skillset and a skillset of an interesting platformer protagonist - increasingly less the more dynamic your gameplay and the more detailed your animations.

Try playing, say, Ori and The Blind Forest and picture convincingly animated human(oid) experiencing the same kind of gameplay. It simply won't work.

And even if the task of creating a new race with unique culture and stuff is too difficult, it is possible to set for something more humble, like being a dragon.

Dragons are anything but humble. I am kind of an expert on this topic.

or fps from perspective of the slug-like creature that can only crawl.

Doom

Spoiler

You couldn't jump.

Spoiler

And System Shock's Hacker has been demonstrated to have tentacles

 

[Lazing Dirk]

How about playing aliens in X-com

I did that in my last game

You don't get to wipe out humanity though, but it's pretty neat.

 

[Sjukob]

For the purposes of this thread Elves and Dorfs are effectively humans in at least 99.99% of cases.
A protagonist is only meaningfully non-human if they, through story or (preferably also) gameplay, experience things that couldn't be experienced by a human (including humans in setting).

For me some decent cultural differences would be enough, if unlike me you travel abroad, then you should already know how big of a factor it is. Although I welcome developers to try and put player in control of creature that leaves in 4 dimensions or something.

Quite ironically, even though you clearly recognize...

I understand this, I just thought of some catchy ideas and didn't want to write a big paragraph.

That's more of an opportunity than a hurdle:
You can reexamine what we take for granted while also creating tons of minuscule details to help weave your unique lore and visual style from and get them effectively for free as they logically follow from your characters' biology and physics, while also cementing your reputation as creative and startlingly original creator. What's there not to like?

Sure, it's just that people spend a lot of time and money to create games with familiar items and known formula. I have no idea what would happen if stray that far from known roads.

I'd rather say it's because there is simply very little overlap between plausibly human skillset and a skillset of an interesting platformer protagonist - increasingly less the more dynamic your gameplay and the more detailed your animations.

Try playing, say, Ori and The Blind Forest and picture convincingly animated human(oid) experiencing the same kind of gameplay. It simply won't work.

I get it, but for example: Crash Bandicoot can be easily swaped for human, Spyro can easily be swaped for human (just give him some weapons and glider), Meatboy can easily be swaped for human, and Sonic (put him on some fancy bike) and many others.

Also you get +10 to sales to furries

That's not a community anybody wants to have.

Dragons are anything but humble.

Divinity 2

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I'm being serious

 

[Beastro]

the human protagonist is made so that any minus habens buying the product can identify more easily in him and enjoy it more.
it's not like the other races are underused, it's that humans sell hugely more.

Because at some level fiction has to relate to us and we are human beings.

It's why a lot of Sci-Fi have aliens with funny looking foreheads and stuff. They are not alien aliens, they are distilled and hyper focused aspects of humanity set in such a way to give a new light on ourselves or to cast old things in a new light.

The problem with fiction and non-human protags (and a lot of games beyond the simple Mario or Sonic protagonist), is that if you make them different enough then the entire themes and lessons in a story will no longer apply to human beings and either be too weird to relate to, if not be outright unappealing and be something people don't want to bother with.

I thought of that mulling over if Star Trek should have gone with an alien-centered series awhile back. Trek being Trek, that immediately brought to mind the Klingons. But what would make a good, appealing show for us to watch wouldn't make something true to what we know of Klingons nor would making a show rashly honest and forthright work either.

To put it another way, it's an issue European Christians have struggled with from the get-go given how many, especially Germanics were like as the continent was slowly converted in the Early Middle Ages.

The biggest problem was the converts wanting to frame their new religion within their culture to make it more relatable and failing to juggle the incompatibility.

One work had Christ and the Apostles be a German lord with 12 retainers traveling around Northern Europe reenacting the Gospels in a familiar Germanic setting. It didn't work well because Christ's message runs completely counter to the Germanic outlook on life. Instead of going around slaying everyone that got in their way and taking on a dragon for his gold, the story was a boring chain of Christ doing His thing with the only big action scene being Peter cutting off the Legionaries ear.

Another example was a, IIRC, second or third generation Christian Frankish priest who was delivering a Sunday sermon in Northern France and forgot who he was exactly. It was about a Frankish queen whose king had died in battle and his enemies had come for her sons. Marching up to them, the enemy king offered her an item in each hand: In one hand a sword, in the other a pair of scissors. The implication was well known to any Frank listening given their customs. If a Frankish heir ever cut their hair they were disqualified from succession, so the rival king was offering the queen a choice: Either she cut her children's hair off and invalidate their inheritance to save their lives living under the victorious king or she take the sword and kill them to spare the two such dishonour. The priest greatly praised the queen for unhesitatingly reaching for the sword and striking her children down rather than do what you'd expect of a Christian.

Even today you try and make such kinds of stories you're going to run into such things. Make a Trek show about Klingons, they're either going to act out morality we know Klingons don't hold to and just be a pack of Worf's, or they will do what we expect and the lessons drawn from the show will be Klingon ones we disagree with and most won't find appealing to watch. Same goes for really, honestly taking on something like a D&D or Warhammer Dark Elf game where you increase. Having to "Amass a horde of slaves to torture and do outright nasty and terrible things towards to lower your Slaneesh-eating-your-soul meter" might sound cool in concept, but having to keep going back to doing it in the laborious way 40k Elves have to do it to survive isn't going to make for something that will attract anything but a creepy niche of people.

I know that for a fact after recently trying to play Blood Omen 2, where drinking blood is effectively how you gain experience and level up, something which in practice turned a fun health restoration mechanic in Blood Omen 1 into a tedious as fuck thing you have to do to most everything you kill as you endure the increasingly lengthening blood sucking cut scene each and every time you do it.

A balance has to be struck, which is where we typically get the human protagonist or one that is effectively no different than one, because deep down only truly messed up people genuinely do not want to revel in not being human (or do other crap that is beyond the pale, which makes things like FATAL so disturbingly hilarious), most just want some little flight of fancy where they can lightly LARP doing other shit or living by some other moral system within the a story that still obeys the one they are apart of.

 

[laclongquan]

There're two stealth games featuring goblins recently that I know of. Both flop like nobody business is my judgement considering the word of mouth around here. Styx something something.

I mean it's very obvious. Only a gamer of strange taste would consider watching and controlling a goblin form move on screen for hours on end.

French developers IIRC.

You can invest huge amount of money, sweat, tears and bloods into making a game with non-humanoid form protagonist. If you are prepared for 100% chance of zero attention and profit.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

that doesn't count. it's a french goblin. i mean, who in their right mind would impersonate a french?

 

[DraQ]

For me some decent cultural differences would be enough, if unlike me you travel abroad, then you should already know how big of a factor it is.

For merely cultural differences you don't need nonhuman protagonist.
In the end your culture is going to be at some points rooted in your physical and biological characteristics, and that applies to human cultures as well - even though their diversity is a testament to how broad the spectrum can be for a single sapient species.

If you try to contrive something completely abstracted from that, you're just going to end up with a bunch of nonsense.

And then, if you have your physical and biological differences it only pays off to tie them into gameplay somehow.

I understand this, I just thought of some catchy ideas and didn't want to write a big paragraph.

Fair enough.

Sure, it's just that people spend a lot of time and money to create games with familiar items and known formula. I have no idea what would happen if stray that far from known roads.

For me the deal is as follows:

• You get me something new and interesting to enjoy? Nice, you get a new sum of money in exchange.
  
• You come up with the same old shit? Feel free to enjoy the money I already paid you when it wasn't the same old shit yet.
  
• The same old shit wasn't actually yours to begin with? A pity. I hope you aren't a petty enough asshole to have any hard feelings for someone else enjoying their hard earned money (or their worthless shits of an offspring, in between bouts of pissing on their grave, but I digress).

That's not a community anybody wants to have.

That's not a community anyone wants to deal with (sort of like the Codex, actually), but that's a relatively big difference.
Plus it's not exactly a homogeneous one either.

A paying community is very much a one you want to have as long as you don't let them take over and lead you in brand new, "prosperous" directions.
Furries are very much going to remain an eagerly paying community as long as non-human protagonists remain rare, so as long as you don't let (some of) them lead you to make furry smut (unless you actually want to, but then you might rightfully alienate pretty much everyone else), they are a model one.

In any case, Bethesda doesn't seem to be complaining.

Divinity 2

What's with it?

 

[DraQ]

There're two stealth games featuring goblins recently that I know of. Both flop like nobody business is my judgement considering the word of mouth around here. Styx something something.

If the devs had any sense in them they would have made them about kobolds instead.

 

[Bocian]

If a writer cannot make a human character interesting, changing the race won't help. Changing the writer might.

 

[Sranchammer]

Minority and other disadvantaged peoples naturally make better protagonists. Humans, specifically white males, are perfect villains due to their monopoly on violence.

 

[Damned Registrations]

If a writer cannot make a human character interesting, changing the race won't help. Changing the writer might.

That's a dumb way of looking at it. You could just as easily limit the character even more and argue that all protagonists should be disabled black children from detroit with dyslexia, because if the writer cannot make that interesting making it more varied won't help. Of course changing the race will help, and there's no reason to settle for 'good enough' if you can get an awesome story about inhuman characters that see the world in an alien way because they outlive entire nations and the relative time investment for them to learn a trade or how to play an instrument is like a human learning someone's name.

 

[Serus]

Various races and cultures of human species have hardly ever been explored or detailed in most games, off hand i can only think of Orlanthi from KoDP as being an alien culture that needed adjusting to.

Supposed other species are usually just poor representations of human races.

Disagree here. Orlanthi ARE humans for all practical purposes. And their culture might feel "alien" to some players only because it isn't a modern human culture but one modelled after traditional ones.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Neanderthal]

Various races and cultures of human species have hardly ever been explored or detailed in most games, off hand i can only think of Orlanthi from KoDP as being an alien culture that needed adjusting to.

Supposed other species are usually just poor representations of human races.

Disagree here. Orlanthi ARE humans for all practical purposes. And their culture might feel "alien" to some players only because it isn't a modern human culture but one modelled after traditional ones.

That's what I'm saying, Orlanthi are one of few human races and cultures that are distinct, and precisely because we've got to change our mindsets to an earlier one to succeed as them.

You could have a game with just human races, and make it far more distinct and unique than those with loads of dull, undefined fantasy species. Master humans before you try to expand.

 

[Serus]

Various races and cultures of human species have hardly ever been explored or detailed in most games, off hand i can only think of Orlanthi from KoDP as being an alien culture that needed adjusting to.

Supposed other species are usually just poor representations of human races.

Disagree here. Orlanthi ARE humans for all practical purposes. And their culture might feel "alien" to some players only because it isn't a modern human culture but one modelled after traditional ones.

That's what I'm saying, Orlanthi are one of few human races and cultures that are distinct, and precisely because we've got to change our mindsets to an earlier one to succeed as them.

You could have a game with just human races, and make it far more distinct and unique than those with loads of dull, undefined fantasy species. Master humans before you try to expand.

Ok, then it was a misunderstanding on my part. I agree with you on this.

 

[DraQ]

Stuff

That's actually a good reason to consider non-human protagonist.

As you have noted there have been lots very diverse human cultures, most deeply disagreeable for most of us. All those cultures share some common basics, not the least of which is human physiology.

With different biology you can have differences distinct from differences between any two human cultures, without automatically having to go for wildly dissonant values.
And if you do have dissonant values, being a completely different species makes them easier to swallow - sort of a morality uncanny valley, if you will.

And then there is gameplay potential.

If a writer cannot make a human character interesting, changing the race won't help. Changing the writer might.

That's besides the point.

The point isn't whether or not human characters can be made interesting.

The point is whether non-human characters can be made interesting in different ways than human ones AND possibly expose new ways to make them or their stories interesting that are still accessible to (admittedly mostly rather pedestrian) game writers.
Also, games have more layers than writing and non-human protagonist has a lot of potential to substantially alter the gameplay of a well established genre.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Maybe there can be an RPG in which you play an introspective RPG. You ask yourself, what can change the nature of an RPG? Over the course of the game, the answer slowly crystallizes in front of you, and gradually comes to resemble two words, to your growing horror: Todd Howard.

 

[Damned Registrations]

One of the interesting things is that this kind of already happens with the 4x genre- although it's not explicit, you're essentially playing some sort of immortal deity ruling over a culture and guiding it through broad strokes in a way no human ever could. Well, I suppose it's explicit in Eador. But generally speaking.

I think the only game I've played that did a good job of conveying an alien sense of abilities and priorities is Endgame: Singularity where you play as a sort of nascent AI in the wild, trying to evade detection and accrue resources to survive. It's a very simple game, but I think it's a good example of being interesting in a way a human protagonist never could.

 

[orcinator]

If you look at it from a gameplay perspective you're already playing a nonhuman in most games, given how extremely limited your interaction with the world is and how your behavior would, at best, classify you as a low functioning autistic.
It's been a thing since games were created but most that bother to have a story just ignore how

the protagonist acts and make them look relatively normal in the cutscenes and eyes of the NPCs.
A lot that can be done story-wise with the concept of the PC's limited ability to interact, but few games actually try. There's a bunch of games where you play a robot or something machine-like and very many where you're blindly following orders, but I can only think of Bioshock as an example of a game where the player character's autism is viewed as abnormal(it certainly doesn't handle the concept well, given you're behaving identically even after the mind control is broken but it gets a sticker for trying).