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Gold Box I played the NES port of Pool of Radiance for a bit; this game is terrible

Reality

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I found Pool of Radiance digestable, only played it for first time last year .. I agree that abusing the "helpless" mechanic with sleep/stinking cloud/hold person makes up a lot of the game., but I think it was still good enough. The later gold box games still have a lot of cloud/hold person, but sleep stops being usable, and I feel like fireball/chain lighting / backstab / AoO are more important in them...

I found "block clearing" pretty fun though. Also underated, but when you start finding enemy spellcasters later on they will start to do most of the player BS against them - I remember the priest of bane's nasty hold person and the final boss will even reflect his lightning off of the wall to hit you twice.
 
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Lilura

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You should have played the Amiga version:

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por.jpg


That's not a faggoty frontend, by the way. It's a 27 year old OS set up manually by me, in order to play Amiga games without cracktros and loadtimes.
 

Roguey

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You should have played the Amiga version:

While it does have decent graphics, I didn't want to deal with a tiny exploration window, the difficult-to-read-font, and having to alt-tab to a journal or list of code wheel codes. That's what made me drop the DOS version as quickly as I did.
 

Mortmal

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Use forgotten realms unlimited adventure, there's a port of pool of radiance. Exact same thing with the improvements of the latest gold box games plus of course the UI addon .
 
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Lilura

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When talking about RPGs, nothing beats the 1987-1993 period ... Your beloved late 90's and early 00's aren't even close.

Actually, my Renaissance/API era shits on your grandpa era. Renaissance has:

Diablo
Daggerfall
Fallout
Baldur's Gate
Fallout 2
Planescape: Torment
Jagged Alliance 2
System Shock 2
Baldur's Gate
Deus Ex
Icewind Dale
Diablo 2
Nox
Avernum
Arcanum
Gothic
Severance: Blade of Darkness
Shadows of Undrentide
Hordes of the Underdark
Morrowind
Icewind Dale 2
Arx Fatalis
KotOR
Gothic 2
KotOR 2
ToEE
Silent Storm
Vampire Bloodlines
Mask of the Betrayer
Storm of Zehir
The Witcher
 

Jason Liang

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When talking about RPGs, nothing beats the 1987-1993 period ... Your beloved late 90's and early 00's aren't even close.

Actually, my Renaissance/API era shits on your grandpa era. Renaissance has:

Diablo
Daggerfall
Fallout
Baldur's Gate
Fallout 2

Planescape: Torment
Jagged Alliance 2
System Shock 2
Baldur's Gate 2 (fixed)

Deus Ex
Icewind Dale
Diablo 2
Nox
Avernum
Arcanum
Gothic
Severance: Blade of Darkness
Shadows of Undrentide
Hordes of the Underdark
Morrowind
Icewind Dale 2
Arx Fatalis
KotOR
Gothic 2
KotOR 2

ToEE
Silent Storm
Vampire Bloodlines
Mask of the Betrayer
Storm of Zehir
The Witcher
that's better
 

Bruma Hobo

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When talking about RPGs, nothing beats the 1987-1993 period ... Your beloved late 90's and early 00's aren't even close.

Actually, my Renaissance/API era shits on your grandpa era. Renaissance has:

Diablo
Daggerfall
Fallout
Baldur's Gate
Fallout 2
Planescape: Torment
Jagged Alliance 2
System Shock 2
Baldur's Gate
Deus Ex
Icewind Dale
Diablo 2
Nox
Avernum
Arcanum
Gothic
Severance: Blade of Darkness
Shadows of Undrentide
Hordes of the Underdark
Morrowind
Icewind Dale 2
Arx Fatalis
KotOR
Gothic 2
KotOR 2
ToEE
Silent Storm
Vampire Bloodlines
Mask of the Betrayer
Storm of Zehir
The Witcher

Bitch please, you're including games from 1996 all the way to 2008 and many expansion packs, yet your list gets still dwarfed by the golden 1987-1993 era.

Wizardry 4, 5, 6 and 7
Might and Magic 2, 3, 4 and 5
Ultima 5, 6, 7, 7 part 2, and Underworld.
Quest for Glory 1, 2, 3 and 4.
All 12 Gold Box games.
Dungeon Master, Chaos Strikes Back, and its many clones (I mean, if you let Diablow in, I can include these).
Lands of Lore
Darklands
Realms of Arkania
Betrayal at Krondor
Wasteland
Dragon Wars
The Magic Candle
Dark Heart of Uukrul.
Nethack
Dark Sun

And that's ignoring many minor titles like Ultima Underworld 2 and the Worlds of Adventure spinoffs, The Bard's Tale 3, Eye of the Beholder, 2400 AD, etc., that may not be the among the greatests, but that can still be more enjoyable than many so called classics like Icewind Dale, KotOR, or your beloved Neverwinter Nights expansion packs.
 

Roguey

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Lilura

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Bitch please

Bitch, please. You listed 20 sequels. I take quality over quantity any day of the week.

Jagged Alliance 2 alone, all by itself, shits on every RPG in your list, taken together. As do Fallout and Arcanum.

And you've never even played them.

Tragic.
 
Repressed Homosexual
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Those Gold Box games are horrible. Everyone says they're enamored with them because they were the first video game that approached a proper reconstitution of D&D on a computer, but the truth is that they really are not good. The interface alone is so unintuitive and such a total pain to use that it's an exercise in frustration. You really need to take off your nostalgia goggles.

KoTC is that Gold Box should have been, an eminently playable, easy to master and fun game.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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This is what inevitably happens when you allow in fans of Baldur's Gate. :M

Baldur's Gate is the greatest AD&D 2nd Edition RPG ever made. In fact, it is the greatest D&D-based RPG ever made, all things considered.

It's so great that one commentator posted write-ups entitled "THAC0 Lords: The Armor Piercers" and "AC Lords the Supertankers".
 

Ladonna

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All things considered? I grant you it had some nice scenery and it was reasonably fun, but combatwise it was not up to the Goldbox games.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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All things considered? I grant you it had some nice scenery and it was reasonably fun, but combatwise it was not up to the Goldbox games.

Please. Go and read each section of my revised retrospective; especially the combat-related sections. Then try to apply such commentary to the Goldbox games. Doesn't work because Goldbox combat has no depth IN COMPARISON.

Just because a game is turn-based, doesn't mean it's good. And this coming from someone who has covered the three greatest turn-based tactics games in the genre: Jagged Alliance 2, ToEE and Silent Storm (which no commentator has ever done before, I might add, because they're jokers).

I wonder how many Goldbox grandpas have even played THOSE.
 

octavius

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All things considered? I grant you it had some nice scenery and it was reasonably fun, but combatwise it was not up to the Goldbox games.

It has better and moddable AI and much more options, which ultimately triumphs over simpler turn based combat.
 
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Darkzone

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Yes but sleep and stinking cloud doesn't work on higher level enemies and upon undead.
While true for sleep, Stinking Cloud works fine, there's just a saving throw vs poison. Undead can be managed with Turn Undead.
By your own admission you recognise that you need different means for different enemies. I will post here from the poolofradiance.fandom wiki the spells.
Sleep:
This spell puts up to 16 targets to sleep for 5 rounds per level of caster. The least powerful targets are affected first, and the bigger the monster, the fewer of them are affected. Monsters above a certain power are not affected at all. No saving throw.
(16hd of monster level affected, while monster with 4d+3 are saved) That means 16 Lv1, 8Lv2, 5Lv3+1Lv1 monster and perhaps 4 Lv4 monster, or in other words: the effect changes with the monster level.
Stinking Cloud:
This affects a 2 square by 2 square area. Anyone in the cloud gets a saving throw. If unsuccessful, he is helpless for 2-5 turns. He can move out of the cloud, but he is still helpless only as long as he is in the cloud and for 1 round afterwards. The cloud lasts 1 round per level of caster.
So yes there are saving throws for Stinking Cloud according to the wiki. My memory was not that bad.
I might add here that in later games (Curse of the Azure Bonds and Secrete of the Silver Blades) there are Drows and Rakshasa that resist magic.

But tell me how did you applied sleep on the horde in Sokal Keep? It is not always about what you use, but also about how and on whom you use it.
I used it on the mob and plinked them with arrows while focusing my melee on the ogres. That was one of the fights I liked, yes.
So you have thinned out the ranks with sleep and arrow throwing mages. Implies that you had at least two mages.
What about the archers in the back rows?

Different means for different enemies with different effect and the need to apply it different dependent on the situation, while preferring one enemy over the other, that is what they call tactics.

Mages were the only class that could resort to different means of combat, while fighters have been in the first versions of D&D rather a dull group. Fighters received different special maneuvers like grapple and disarm in ADD, but this could have not been translated to cRPGS. And due to Colin and his infamous Book of Elves with the Bladesinger fighting style the possibility was born to make a fighter more versatile. With DnD3E the Fighter received the Feets that made each fighter possible a different kind of bread. The 4E is not a PnP RPG, but a BnP RPG and each fighter becomes as versatile as a Mage and why WotC are not pushing it in the time of Board Games is a mystery to me. The DnD5E has created the most versatile Fighter ever in an DnD version aka the most beloved Battlemaster, that builds up also upon Colins work of the Bladesinger fighting style.
This is what is called evolution (changes over time that accumulate and are selected).
Therefore you cannot expect much tactics with the Fighter, Paladin or Ranger in the earlier GoldBox games, besides positioning, choice of weapon and enemy. And therefore the mage is the only possible way to experience the tactical choices and even his is limited especially in PoR due to the amount and the kind of spells. The mage with sleep is the the strong choice in the first part of the game. But as the game progresses and the enemies and the caster gets stronger the sleep spells depricates and Magic misslie, Burning Hands, Shield are a better choice. Stinking Cloud is the only Level 2 attack spell, while Strength is to short in duration.
 
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Bruma Hobo

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I'm obviously not a Pool of Radiance fanboy here, but I do believe it's a more enjoyable game than Baldur's Gate. You just can't beat fast-paced and secret-riddled blobber exploration with slow and clunky RTS movement, or a superior abstract presentation (very fitting for this kind of game) with a top-down real-time game where most characters look like they have no other purpose than being there waiting for the player (which is why progression is way more satisfying in PoR, and why the world feels more alive). And of course full-party creation and turn-based combat synergize much better with the AD&D rules and that's definitely a plus, even if the IE games have a better encounter design and more balanced spells.

It's still a clunky as hell game though, inventory and spell management is a mess, and has some very questionable design choices (like, you can't just make a computer game with vancian magic that lets you save and rest everywhere, that's just dumb and not how actual D&D works, at all). Pool of Radiance needed some Greenberg kind of guy designing more tight and elegant gameplay.
 

smaug

Secular Koranism with Israeli Characteristics
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Champions of Krynn is a much better game to start with than PoR.

The UI improvement is godly.
 

Jason Liang

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Pool of Radiance doesn't really let you rest everwhere though. Until you clear them, many of the later areas only have the occasional "safe spot" to rest, i.e. Vallejo Castle and Valhingen graveyard. That's why New Phlan *does* feel like a civilized haven in a hostile wilderness.
 

Dorateen

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The Gold Box games regularly employed diverse resting rules. Some areas restricted resting to a single square or zone. There were maps that had a wandering monster system in place, which could interrupt resting attempts. And some locations let the party rest safely only after they defeated a set number of encounters. The concept of restricted resting would re-emerge in the Dark Sun games through the use of campfires, and by extension, this method of recovering hit points and spells was used in Knights of the Chalice.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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You just can't beat fast-paced and secret-riddled blobber exploration with slow and clunky RTS movement

Baldur's Gate is the one of the fastest-playing RPGs ever made. It runs at up to 60 AI updates per second, and is capable of representing a maximum of 24 ApR per round/6 secs or six spellcastings every other round/6 secs (halve those times under 60 AI updates).

12.jpg


3.jpg


or a superior abstract presentation (very fitting for this kind of game) with a top-down real-time game where most characters look like they have no other purpose than being there waiting for the player (which is why progression is way more satisfying in PoR, and why the world feels more alive).

You haven't backed this up with a single fact. Thus, I can simply counter: Baldur's Gate feels more alive than PoR, and it's just your word against mine.

Not that I give a fuck about RPGs "feeling alive". Not if it means NPCs are going to be harder to find. That is some Bethes'tard shit right there. You're probably a fan of Oblivion and its Radiant AI.

And of course full-party creation and turn-based combat synergize much better with the AD&D rules and that's definitely a plus, even if the IE games have a better encounter design and more balanced spells.

Despite being RTwP, Baldur's Gate offers superior tactics to any Goldbox RPG. Read my blog.

And I like how you talk about full party creation and the IE games in one swoop, forgetting that IWD and IWD2 are built around full party creation and in-game character arbitration. Moreover, by way of simple workaround BG and BG2 can be played that way as well.

And guess what? Full party creation isn't even needed for greatness. Ever played Jagged Alliance 2, numbnuts?

01.jpg


Totally smashes your primitive Goldbox to pieces - in every single way. And hasn't been beaten to this day.


Rogueknight's Swordflight offers the best example of resting restrictions and resource management under the Vancian magic system. You wouldn't have played it, though, because you let your petty biases get in the road of a much-needed education.
 
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Bruma Hobo

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You just can't beat fast-paced and secret-riddled blobber exploration with slow and clunky RTS movement

Baldur's Gate is the one of the fastest-playing RPGs ever made. It runs at up to 60 AI updates per second, and is capable of representing a maximum of 24 ApR per round/6 secs or six spellcastings every other round/6 secs (halve those times under 60 AI updates).
Bitch, are you for real?



Blobber exploration is mucho, much faster, as every step covers more terrain than 5 seconds of constant walking in your average RTwP game. Pillars of Eternity even needed a fast forward button because RTS exploration is inherently slow, don't make me laugh.


or a superior abstract presentation (very fitting for this kind of game) with a top-down real-time game where most characters look like they have no other purpose than being there waiting for the player (which is why progression is way more satisfying in PoR, and why the world feels more alive).

You haven't backed this up with a single fact. Thus, I can simply counter: Baldur's Gate feels more alive than PoR, and it's just your word against mine.

Not that I give a fuck about RPGs "feeling alive". Not if it means NPCs are going to be harder to find. That is some Bethes'tard shit right there. You're probably a fan of Oblivion and its Radiant AI.
So you think Oblivion's more immersive than Gothic? There must be something wrong with your head.

Learn to read, I just said that the world feels more alive because of the more abstract presentation (which is a fact). The world can "feel" more alive while being very static, that's a matter of presentation and aesthetics, and Pool of Radiance succeeds where Baldur's Gate doesn't. PoR only hints at a populated Phlan and an evolving world (like when you clear some monster infested areas and become civilized) with very scarce resources and the player believes it, while the extremely detailed and filled with content Baldur's Gate city feels nevertheless more empty and artificial (just like Oblivion cities feel more artificial than Morrowind's, even with all that crappy Radiant bullshit).

Despite being RTwP, Baldur's Gate offers superior tactics to any Goldbox RPG. Read my blog.

And I like how you talk about full party creation and the IE games in one swoop, forgetting that IWD and IWD2 are built around full party creation and in-game character arbitration. Moreover, by way of simple workaround BG and BG2 can be played that way as well.

And guess what? Full party creation isn't even needed for greatness. Ever played Jagged Alliance 2, numbnuts?

Totally smashes your primitive Goldbox to pieces - in every single way. And hasn't been beaten to this day.
What a nice AD&D RPG Jagged Alliance 2 is, bro. You obviously didn't understand a word I was saying.



And I thought my Gold Box hatred was pretty obvious here, perhaps it was just too subtle for people like you. Go find another clown to defend these games, I no longer care.
 
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