I want to buy TOEE, but I want to know...

On a similiar note Greyhawk itsself was designed to be just like how Monte explained. And ta-dah, the base setting for 3rd Edition is...Greyhawk!

 

That's me you're talking about. I started playing seriously as a pre-teen in '85. For me, the game was never about the combat -- it was always the least interesting element of play. I now have a nostalgic reverence for the Giants series, but I remember being bored stiff as we hacked our way from room to room. I was much more taken with the Tomb Of Harrors/Ravenloft school of story-driven, atmospheric, puzzle-modules. And I responded best when the Dungeon Master took us out of the store-bought adventures and into more free-form gameplay of his own devising.

I think the Planescape setting was an attempt to give those of us who weren't that compelled by combat a version of Dungeons & Dragons tailored to our desires. Obviously there weren't that many of us, because Planescape was never too popular. But in our old Planescape campaign, we could go several sessions of intense game- interaction without ever resorting to combat. And there was no question at any point that what we were playing was Dungeons & Dragons -- a logical extension of the game we discovered in '85. Same basic rules, same character system, same types of encounters, same options and methods of resolving difficulty.

So while the game rules do allow a tremendous number of combat options, and while the d20 is a combat system, I have a hard time agreeeing with the notion that Dungeons & Dragons is fundamentally a combat game. I've played in combat-heavy campaigns, and campaigns that were more narrative-driven, and while the tenor of the experiences were different, in both cases that "D&D essence" was always there.

From the Clerk's Ward,
Tris McCall

 

It should'nt be that tough, because it is a cold hard fact.
Of course It's your perogative to *view* the game as you see fit
given your own experience, that doesn't however change the fundamental nature of game. While those who controlled the license during the years may have strayed the course, 3E core has brought things back into perspective or "back to basics" so to speak. This is a black and white issue, I can only assume that those who argue the contrary are just trying to justify their personal preference to the rest of us. It's pointless, just proudly say "Hey I like Roleplaying", and D&D is my outlet for it..Don't tell the rest of us the game isn't about combat or wasn't designed with combat as its central focus.

 

I agree with Sheriff05. People have used D&D as a platform to jump off into free-form story-telling/ role-playing. If that's where you're going, do you need armour classes and hit points and Great Cleave feats?

Not really.

John Woo might think that he's taken the action movie genre into new balletic directions that verge on arthouse. Great, John, please carry on. But to the rest of us it's still car chases and guys getting hosed down with MAC10's.

I think that Tris is right, though, and that Planescape was the apogee of where AD&D "lost it's way". If TSR had been smarter they'd have actually licenced a free-form story-telling game associated with the D&D brand and let Planescape free from the "shackles" of rules. But that's another issue.

The only RPG I ever palyed where we did anything near serious role-playing was RuneQuest, because the campaign settings and realistic combat model more or less demanded it (you were pretty careful about initiating melee as you might end up missing a limb or three). D&D was more fun on a superficial level. It's the ultimate quarter pounder, fries and a beer from an upscale brasserie...not prime rib. And I couldn't eat either every night.

Cheers
MC

 

I'd never say that. I think it's clear that the game *was* designed by Gygax and the other founders with combat as its focus. It's also clear that the number of D&D players who *want* the game to continue to have a combat focus outweigh those of use for whom that combat focus isn't so important -- hence 3E, and the decision not to support Planescape.

But the intentions of the designers and the will of the majority of the players isn't what I'm wondering about. I was thinking about the very difficult question about the "spirit" of Dungeons & Dragons that Elastizombie asked. How has that spirit or essence developed over the past thirty years, and what continues to draw people to the game? Is combat the essence?

I don't think it could be. It's possible to play the game without fighting -- not usual, but possible. The experience of playing Dungeons & Dragons in a low-combat setting like Planescape isn't altogether different than the experience of playing it in a hack-and-slash Greyhawk campaign. Remove the combat, and it's still Dungeons & Dragons, still playable -- and for some of us, *more* playable (I know I'm not the only one).

What can't you play Dungeons & Dragons without, though? You can't play without making a character. I think character development is the spirit and center of the game -- the player's identification with his or her character, and the accompanying will to make that character more powerful. I remember Jeff Vogel said something about this in a chat-session somewhere, and I can't agree with it more. You create a little avatar of yourself; it starts weak, and then you make it stronger, and in so doing, you provide yourself a metaphor for your own struggles and your own development. You can develop a character through combat, or you develop a character in other ways.

I think the character-development system of Dungeons and Dragons (coupled with the fantasy setting that appeals to people for a variety of reasons) is the hallmark, essence, spirit, fundament, whatever you want to call it, of the game. Think of the tropes from Dungeons & Dragons that have become near industry-standard: the six major attributes, the hit dice, the class advancement, the alignment system. What's the first thing anybody does when making a new game? They rip all of this stuff off from D&D. Why? Because better than any other system devised, it gets you inside your character. It does the best job of creating an imaginary avatar -- one the player can inhabit.

I won't contest that combat simulation was the original idea. But if Dungeons & Dragons had remained an impersonal combat system played with miniatures on a grid, it never would have captured the imagination of anybody beyond a hardcore group of grognards. The spirit came into the game with the six attributes, the class-advancement system, and the alignment system.

I also won't contest that what most people want to do with their avatars is head into a well-stocked dungeon and bust skulls.

 

So what it seems to me from what people are saying is that the spirit of D&D is a combination of a number of ingredients :

- the hack 'n' slash dungeon crawl lewt fest
- the roleplaying aspect (amateur dramatics or otherwise)
- the feeling of comraderie and fun that comes from playing with a group
- the core ruleset
- the ability to get creative and go beyond the rules (see rule 0)
- the fantasy world aspect

Feel free to add to this list.

Also, it appears that everyone prefers their own combination and quantities of these ingredients to define the spirit of D&D. How necessary are all these factors?

Coming back to TOEE, to what degree are these factors met? How about CRPGs in general?

I guess what I'm trying to say is: if a key ingredient for you to enjoy a D&D session is missing from a game that claims to be D&D based, than you probably won't enjoy it very much. But someone else with different key ingredients at the top of their list will think it is the cat's pajamas. For myself, TOEE has a lot of what I look for in D&D, so I enjoy it, but I would probably enjoy the game more if it had stronger roleplaying aspects. And I've yet to find a game that recreates that "playing with a group around the kitchen table" feeling. I'm not even sure if it is entirely possible.

Just my 2 cents...

 

I dunno, that Mission Impossible 2 movie was freaking stupid, primarily because of the silly car chases and gun fights. Just the scene where Tom Cruise is using the rear view mirror on his motorcycle to shoot the machine gun toting bad guys with his pistol alone, while not taking a scratch from all the hundreds of bullets they're firing at him.. I hated that movie.

 

Tris McCall iis an unparalled genius.

 

In light of Tris McCall's post, I would definitely add Character Development to the list.

 

No, he just agrees with you.

 

Which makes him a genius... :wink:

P.S. He doesn't agree with me 100% so don't put words in either of our mouths. :twisted:

 

I think I'll throw in here.

Personally, I don't want a CRPG that replicates the PnP experience. (plus I don't think its possible) I don't want the box on my desk to be a substitute for interacting with actual people (or the other way around, for that matter).

With a PnP game sometimes I want role-playing, sometimes pure hack is OK. But the primary thing is the social aspect- having a good time with people.

With a CRPG, I want fun and entertaining- sometimes something to squeeze into a free hour, sometimes something deep and thought provoking. But what I want to play depends a bit too... if I'm squeezing an actiony thing like D2 or Sacred is good. Thought provoking makes me look for more hard-core things...

 

Weird. You're right. But I can't use the mouse to scroll the screen now.

 

Hmm, I never tried that so I dunno. Always controlled the screen with the arrows.

 

I need to try that.....I want to finish this game, but the gods of poorly compiled code are angry...they demand a sacrifice. :shock:

 

Often I do. Agree with Volourn, I mean. But I'll defend ToEE pretty strenuously as a dungeon hack. As a matter of fact, it's easily the most compelling dungeon hack I've played. So I think Volourn would consider me among those who've persisted in overrating the game.

There's a strain of argument on the Atari boards that goes like this: if you're *not* up in arms about the bugginess of ToEE, and if you *don't* want to punish Troika and Atari for releasing an incomplete, flawed product, you're contributing to the complacency of a games industry that's taking its customer base for granted. I understand the argument: I've struggled with the bugs and slowdowns, too. Yet I'd be the first person on line at EB to buy an extention, or an Against The Giants game made using the same engine. So, yeah, maybe I'm part of the problem.

Tris

 

Sorry to bring this back on topic.

I've been slowly trying out games recommended by these forums, just finished Silent Storm, now ToEE, maybe.

Is it worth waiting for this new patch? Are the issues it is supposed to be fixing technical ones, like problems with graphics, sound and occasional CTDs, or are they gameplay ones, like problems with broken quests and stuff like the potion bug mentioned on page 1? Because I really hate gameplay bugs and rarely get technical bugs.

Edit: That potion bug was in another thread actually.

 

That depends on your computer. Like I said before, I never had any problems with ToEE. Some people did. Try it and see.

 

It has nothing to do with one's computer in most cases; but the game itself. Don't listen to VD. He's a "tad" bias.

 

Am not. I played ToEE many times, I had one CTD, one broken quest (Mona's Orb - happened only once, before the patch), and several insignificant slowdowns in the Earth node. That's all. KOTOR, on the other hand, was absolutely unplayable for me untill I killed the sound completely. So go figure. It does depend on a computer to a certain degree.

 

The only universal bug I know of for ToEE is the dagger of venom thing. But then again, I don't see the big picture, as in I can't monitor what goes on in everyone's game of ToEE all over the world, so I guess I don't have much say in this. Seems like Volourn's situation is no different.

BTW I had almost no bugs in KotOR. The only bugs I had was a crash and corrupted save and a crash when I ran it for the first time after installing (not a good way to welcome new players, Bio).

 

I didn't run into any game-stopping bugs either. Buy it from EB and you can return it within 7 days.

 

Ok. It's a myth. TOEE has no bugs. All the customers who compalined have buggy computers.

 

The King of Hyperbole has spoken

 

The King of Hyperbole has spoken