Icewind Dale Icewind Dale is a very boring, bad game

[Erebus]

Other than the lovely landscape and the music, IWD is largely worthless. Play IWD 2 instead.

 

[oldmanpaco]

I finished IWD a few months ago and I have to say I was pretty bored by the end.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Today I learned that hordes of shitty skeletons and lizards aren't trashmods.


Great encounter design there.

I'm at a loss as to who your teacher is, because there aren't hordes of shitty Skeletons or Lizards in IWD. Perhaps you'd like to give exact examples? Though I suspect that kind of reply isn't really your bag is it...

 

[Trashos]

I'm at a loss as to who your teacher is, because there aren't hordes of shitty Skeletons or Lizards in IWD. Perhaps you'd like to give exact examples? Though I suspect that kind of reply isn't really your bag is it...

All right, took a look into some maps online. I am going to try to answer this from (long-term) memory, but please understand that it's been years. Two levels where I *remember* to have fought the same enemies repeatedly and was bored to tears are:

- Tombs in Vale of Shadows. Repeated trash mobs of skeletons. Don't remember if all tombs were like that, but I remember thinking at some point "why the fuck do I have to fight those guys again? Haven't I just beaten them 3-4 times already?"
- Dragon's Eye, Level 3 (I *think* it was level 3). All the set pieces (3 iirc) on the left side of the map were the same huge mob.

There were many other examples too, but these I remember (hopefully).

 

[Roguey]

Icewind Dale does have a lot more combat than BG or ToEE but that's a consequence of it being a linear real-time combat crawl. They have to fill up hours somehow

 

[Trashos]

Icewind Dale does have a lot more combat than BG or ToEE but that's a consequence of it being a linear real-time combat crawl. They have to fill up hours somehow

I understand. But the fact that it was only combat meant that they had to go the extra mile and make sure that every fight had its twist, to keep things fresh. Otherwise, a lot of players are going to be bored to death.

 

[Micormic]

I'm at a loss as to who your teacher is, because there aren't hordes of shitty Skeletons or Lizards in IWD. Perhaps you'd like to give exact examples? Though I suspect that kind of reply isn't really your bag is it...

It's literally been 15 years since I played and beat IWD, going back and playing mediocre diablo clones isn't exactly on my to do list.


Trashos already answered you for me so I won't even bother haha.

 

[Roguey]

I understand. But the fact that it was only combat meant that they had to go the extra mile and make sure that every fight had its twist, to keep things fresh. Otherwise, a lot of players are going to be bored to death.

That's not the Traditional Dungeon Delving Experience. There's inconsequential stuff that whittles down your resources, stuff that requires a bit more attention, and stuff that requires you to give it your all.

As an example, IWD2 erred too much on the side of the latter two, and as a result, it feels like more of a slog than any of the others.

 

[FeelTheRads]

So, wait... trash mobs are defined by the number of enemies or are they defined by how (un)challenging the encounter is?

Or is it now a term to describe re-using the same enemy type?


Because if we're talking numbers then any encounter in IWD is "trash mobs".

To make it clear, what I mean is that a "horde of skeletons" doesn't have to be "trash" if it poses an actual challenge.
Similarly, a single enemy can be "trash" if it dies in a hit.
Unless you're using a different meaning for "trash mobs" in which case, fuck you.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I know, it's laughable isn't it.

Apparently a couple of Tombs.... TOMBS... have some skeletons in them when you're level 2. OMG, such trash mob, such monotony

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I would say a trash mob is the kind of mob where you can fight them on auto-pilot, which is essentially almost every mob in IWD.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't get it, turn off your retardo auto-correct and/or use a computer, not a phone like a peasant.

Also, tombs->skeletons. Seems to make enough sense to me to kill them in a game about killing shit. I don't think making sense was that guy's problem with the encounters.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Cool story, bro.

 

[Brancaleone]

Icewind Dale does have a lot more combat than BG or ToEE but that's a consequence of it being a linear real-time combat crawl. They have to fill up hours somehow

Every time Josh Sawyer is involved, you depict some imaginary situation in which the poor soul had no other choice than doing what he did. Don't you think this dumb trick of yours is past stale?

Or do you really think that the only way to fill the hours of a combat crawl is with copy-paste trashmobs?

 

[Micormic]

I don't get it, turn off your retardo auto-correct and/or use a computer, not a phone like a peasant.

Also, tombs->skeletons. Seems to make enough sense to me to kill them in a game about killing shit. I don't think making sense was that guy's problem with the encounters.

I have no problem with there being skeletons in tombs or lizard men in wherever you found them. My point is the encounters aren't interesting and for the most part I remember the game being extremely easy and mind numbing.

I'm not a fan of dungeon crawlers in the first place which is obviously part of the reason I wasn't crazy about the IWD games. Regardless of that people on here trying to argue the IWD games as some type of RTWP equivalent to JA2 are idiots.

 

[Trashos]

Well, it was boring. Tradition or not, the whittling down of resources by waves of similar mobs does not exciting gameplay make.

The repeated fight at Dragon's Eye level 3 was not completely unchallenging, but that doesn't mean that I should have to go through it several times in a row.

Yes, it is natural to find skeletons in tombs. But at the end of the day that map didn't make for good gameplay. Have a twist, make me change my tactics, surprise me. Use the map to make me change tactics. Mix things up, have fewer trash mobs, I don't know. The Druid Grove in SoA is not the most exciting IE map ever (trolls galore), but it had enough variety to not bore me. Druids, the rakasha, battle between humans and trolls, the myconids. And it also played with the spacing in the troll hut.

 

[Sigourn]

So, wait... trash mobs are defined by the number of enemies or are they defined by how (un)challenging the encounter is?

Or is it now a term to describe re-using the same enemy type?

"Trash mobs" is usually used in plural to refer groups of enemies that pose no challenge at all. They are "trash" in the sense that the dev just needed to place something for the player to fight, with no thought whatsoever going behind the enemy placement. I do think Icewind Dale has trash mobs in certain sections, though never as blatant as Baldur's Gate's hordes of skeletons, kobols, goblins and the like.

I think my favorite dungeon in Icewind Dale was the very second to last location (that is, before returning to Kuldahar). Some pretty cool vistas and enemy placements. Though in hindsight, I think my favorite location by far was that old tree fortress, simply fantastic.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Icewind Dale was fun enough for me to finish without complaint twice, the only parts I didn't particularly enjoy were the Temple of the Forgotten God and Dragon's Eye I guess (for different reasons) and only effectively having access to one full town at any given time kind of sucked.

 

[Roguey]

Every time Josh Sawyer is involved, you depict some imaginary situation in which the poor soul had no other choice than doing what he did. Don't you think this dumb trick of yours is past stale?

Or do you really think that the only way to fill the hours of a combat crawl is with copy-paste trashmobs?

Every RPG with strategic or the illusion of strategic gameplay does this (and even some that don't still do it). Yes, that is the only way to do it, because that's the only way it's ever done. You can have an expansion sized 10-20 hour experience with little-to-no filler or you can have a role playing game with dozens of hours of gameplay, but you can't have both.

 

[KK1001]

Trash mobs are defined by a lack of challenge, little if any resource expenditure to get through them, and simplicity of encounter mechanics.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

It is mostly corridors in the sense that a hallway leading into a room with one exit and another hallway on the other side IS a corridor pretty much. Meaning the game is linear af. And it is trash mob delight, as most areas just feature the same monster/enemy over and over, maybe 2 of them if you get lucky. Most don't even have spells or special abilities, and the ones that do just cast the same simple shit (e.g. Hold Monster or Charm or Magic Missile, depending on the enemy).

There's corridors and then there's dungeons. Most IWD dungeon levels are some variety of:

Yes, one door in and one door out, but it's not a linear corridor and there'll usually be all kinds of different monsters to face. This level, for example, has Trolls, Acid Beetles, mad cultist clerics, spiders to name just the ones that come quickly to my memory, all of which have a different unique quality to their attack or set-up. There are also other features on this map, such as an interesting trap, quest resolutions and good loot. The only combat I'd class as being in anyway trash here is one or two too many trolls at point 7.

Where the game IS more like a corridor is some parts of Heart of Winter, the lesser expansion. That map is so boring I can't even find it by a quick google as no-one likely cares for it, the one where you kill a remorhaz, walk 10 feet, kill another remorhaz for the length of a single corridor map.

If you don't like corridors then I guess you'd hate the traditional cRPG dungeon design:

But if you prefer BG games, then I guess you're more used to your corridors looking something like this:

Oh wow, it even has really sharp corners and barely any 'rooms'.

Actually, on the top 70 list, some of the reviews said it has more mature writing than BG games. What a load...

The word 'mature' doesn't necessarily mean either 'more' or 'better', it likely just means you don't have to be interrupted by pre-made companions and the main narrative is about some mercenaries going monster hunting for both the lols and the glory rather than some uber-pretentious god fantasy. But it will be completely subjective, obviously, which type of narrative you prefer.

I am soloing, yes, which should make it more challenging and interesting, but it really doesn't. Haven't really had any difficulty plowing through everything.

The game is not designed to be soloed, per-se. The game is balanced around a party of six characters you make yourself. An adventuring party. If you went solo the first time you played then you might not be aware that you'll be getting 6 times the expected XP, and, obviously, it wont be too long before you're vastly more OP than the level of monster you're facing, so, yes, kinda shot yourself in the foot there.

However, I have to say, it takes a special kind of person to load up a game who's single biggest selling point is being able to build your own party of six adventurers and to then decide to go solo on your first run.

Further, and more importantly, you appear to give the game absolutely zero praise for letting you go solo. You don't seem to give two shits that the game actually has the ability to let you take on your adventures however the fuck you want. You appear to have ungratefully, and dare I say, entitledly, just said "I'm going solo! Thanks game for letting me! Game sucks, too easy!", which, if you don't mind me saying so, is a pretty retarded attitude.

 

[Brancaleone]

Every RPG with strategic or the illusion of strategic gameplay does this (and even some that don't still do it). Yes, that is the only way to do it, because that's the only way it's ever done. You can have an expansion sized 10-20 hour experience with little-to-no filler or you can have a role playing game with dozens of hours of gameplay, but you can't have both.

Aaaaaaannd repeat: "Sawyer did some shitty job, but really, the only alternative he had was equally shitty. Because I just pulled everything out of my own ass."

After all, post-Barcelona Lionheart is a linear combat-crawl, and they had to fill up the hours somehow, right? There was no alternative, because that's how it's ever been done, and anyways you can't have both of two arbitrarily selected things, let's pretend this is not a false dichotomy, please, else all my bullshit comes crashing down, no really, and since we are at it, let's also pretend you said you wanted both, pretty please?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

But, all we have are IE games copycats.

There's precious few IE copycats. Zero really until PoE came along. PoE was specifically funded to provide a new IE game, so was actually expected to be an IE copycat, that's what the people paid for. People criticised PoE mostly for not being an IE copycat...

 

[Roguey]

After all, post-Barcelona Lionheart is a linear combat-crawl, and they had to fill up the hours somehow, right? There was no alternative, because that's how it's ever been done, and anyways you can't have both of two arbitrarily selected things, let's pretend this is not a false dichotomy, please, else all my bullshit comes crashing down, no really, and since we are at it, let's also pretend you said you wanted both, pretty please?

Lionheart was rushed and bad. Icewind Dale was made on a tight schedule, but not rushed.

This is what makes me so mad: there have been games like AoD, Blackguaexactlyre exxactly this kind of stupid filler was *not* present and the mechanics were amazing and so was the encounter design. But for orthogonal reasons, people gave up over those games. There is a gold mine there if someone wants to learn from it. But, all we have are IE games copycats.

Black Isle released a 10-15 hour expansion to Icewind Dale and the fanbase was livid over how short that was for an expansion. So much so that Black Isle felt it necessary to put in the time and effort to make a 6+ hour free megadungeon to win back their favor. Releasing a full-price game like that would have been unacceptable.

 

[Brancaleone]

Lionheart was rushed and bad. Icewind Dale was made on a tight schedule, but not rushed.

You really need to get better at sidetracking.