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Immaturity in JRPGs: Fact or fiction?

80Maxwell08

Arcane
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
1,154
I've tried playing a few jrpgs like Chrono Cross, Suikoden 2, Xenogears etc. and always give up after an hour or two. My biggest gripe is that the genre doesn't even try to suspend your disbelief. The world building is inane and feels like it's just made up as you go along. The characters are always some kids running somewhere for fuck knows what reason. Don't get me wrong, a game about the children's crusade would be cool, just not when the kids are dressed like harlequins fighting talking puffer fish or some other such bollocks.

Tales of the Abyss has some general of sorts going to some place because of some very important reason (he has to go search for a missing man who is like a symbol of his kingdom, or something like that), and his sword trainee goes "YOU CAN'T GO, WHO IS GOING TO TRAIN ME?!!!!". The guy then replies "I'll have someone train you", and the kid goes "But I want YOU to train me!".

This would be funny if the kid in question was 7, but he is 17 or something. That's a whole different level of stupidity that made the protagonist insufferable.
I'm laughing at this post simply because you perfectly guessed one of the major twists of the game already. My feelings on Tales of the Abyss are the plot is probably the best in the series, but the characters are among the worst, especially Luke. He grows a lot as a character but he just never stops whining. I stopped my playthrough at about 70% in because I just couldn't stand the characters anymore.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,038
Location
NZ
Resonance of Fate has been pleasingly free of any hint of that so far (10 hours in). Just a couple of cool dudes doing contracts for money to spend on new guns and sweet sunglasses.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
How is Tales of Berseria? I'm on a cute protagonist run and I have to admit I like Velvet's looks a lot. From what I've heard it is an edgy JRPG, which in JRPG jargon may very well mean "not kiddie".
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,886
Location
Water Play Catarinense
You should never expect good plot from Tales series(unless it's Tales of Phantasia for SNES, which is the best Tales), because they are the fast food of JRPGs. If you ever play one with a good plot, that is nice, but don't go into one expecting it. The less you do so, the better you enjoy your game for not betraying your expectations.
 

Jacob

Pronouns: Nick/Her
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Grab the Codex by the pussy

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,886
Location
Water Play Catarinense

I don't think this guy knows what hidden gems is supposed to mean. All the RPGs there are well known games. The same goes for the rest, the first game is ICO, for example.
To be fair, it looks like an old article (mid 00s) at which point a new generation of internet users were just discovering games that aren't call of duties and super mario bros.
It is late 00s, though.
November 23rd, 2008 at 7:19pm by racketboy

Then again, it's kinda hard to find hidden gems for console games that are not jp-only. Any other game that is not jp will be talked over and over if it's a great game, no matter how obscure it is.
 

Jacob

Pronouns: Nick/Her
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Grab the Codex by the pussy

I don't think this guy knows what hidden gems is supposed to mean. All the RPGs there are well known games. The same goes for the rest, the first game is ICO, for example.
To be fair, it looks like an old article (mid 00s) at which point a new generation of internet users were just discovering games that aren't call of duties and super mario bros.
It is late 00s, though.
November 23rd, 2008 at 7:19pm by racketboy

Then again, it's kinda hard to find hidden gems for console games that are not jp-only. Any other game that is not jp will be talked over and over if it's a great game, no matter how obscure it is.
Well... I guess 2008 is more appropriately called late 00s but my point still stands. If you mention Ico as a hidden gem in 2016, yes, people had already heard about it too many times to be impressed, but not in 2008.
 

cosmicray

Savant
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Messages
436
How is Tales of Berseria? I'm on a cute protagonist run and I have to admit I like Velvet's looks a lot. From what I've heard it is an edgy JRPG, which in JRPG jargon may very well mean "not kiddie".
Amazed no one mentioned so far, but Tales Of Vesperia has a pretty awesome MC. The game is also quite mature. You should try it.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Decided to take a break from Yakuza and have begun playing Odin Sphere. So far so good: the characters behave like you would expect actual human beings to behave (really, the difference with Tales of the Abyss is night and day). Plus the artstyle kicks ass.
 

cosmicray

Savant
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Messages
436
Some might argue that Odin Sphere's "cute" style don't suit norse mythology. Although, it still kicks ass. Too bad it got repetitive with each story, and PS2 struggled quite a lot in some stages.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Some might argue that Odin Sphere's "cute" style don't suit norse mythology. Although, it still kicks ass. Too bad it got repetitive with each story, and PS2 struggled quite a lot in some stages.

I would agree but it looks wonderful either way. Hopefully the game stays strong.

I FUCKING KNEW IT

The victory theme of Odin Sphere sounded very familiar, Vagrant Story-esque. Familiar enough: composer Hitoshi Sakimoto worked on both games.



Hopefully someone knows which track of Vagrant Story is similar to Odin Sphere's theme.



Disclaimer: I may be confusing it with Final Fantasy XII, but I'm very sure it was from Vagrant Story.
 

Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
10,576
Location
Nottingham
How is Tales of Berseria? I'm on a cute protagonist run and I have to admit I like Velvet's looks a lot. From what I've heard it is an edgy JRPG, which in JRPG jargon may very well mean "not kiddie".

Just bought that the other day myself. Prob won't play it for a while yet, still finishing off Nier Automata, but looking forward to it.
 

Dodo1610

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2018
Messages
2,160
Location
Germany
I thought Berseria was really good. The combat takes some time until you get used to it but then it's fast and fun. I liked the story because for the most time Velvet is a villain who simply wants to get revenge even if innocents have to suffer. It even has a cool party of really strange and entertaining companions.
Most JRPGs don't want to tell dark and mature stories, they are more about the joy of adventuring with friends then most modern western RPGs.
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,198
I would like to share my personal experience, which is a bit different than usual (I think). Please indulge me (and my abysmal english. I am not an english speaker by the way)

I never played any JRPGs up until recently. When I was young I played only western games during what I think is the apex of western PC gaming: the Ultima games, Ultima Underworld, Fallout 1&2, Baldur's Gate 1&2, Planescape Torment, Gothic 1&2, Thief, Deus Ex, System Shock 1&2, Bloodlines, Arcanum, Morrowind, etc...

I think the first JRPG that I played was in 2015, that is, well beyond my youth... I never possessed a console, and in 2015 I realized there were many good emulators for a lot of Japanese console systems. Emuparadise an similar sites were still open, and I found literally an universe to explore. I was very curious about all these games I never touched.

I had to decide where to start. I documented myself a bit, and tried to identify the best entry point to this huge uncharted (at least by me) universe. The choice for the entry point was Persona 4 for the PS2. I decided to play the last entry of the Persona series (Persona 5 still didn't exist) assuming that the latest one should be the one with more QoL improvements: there was still a possibility that I will not like these games at all, and I wanted to facilitate and lubricate the experience as much as possible...

It was an authentic revelation.

But to understand this I need first to do some another bits of contextualisation. After having experienced the Apex of PC gaming during my youth, I then experienced its continuous decline. I have seen the decline of RPG in various aspects, the abandon of turn based combat for the RTwP abomination, the advent of ARPGs like Diablo et al. that redefined the western panorama as a desolated compulsive clickfest with micro-transactions, the involution of RPG franchises, such as Fallout or Mass Effect, into mind-numbing shooters, etc... It was truly the dark age of western gaming. The only fresh air arrived from the eastern Europe, in a game titled "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." By the way, that game was (is) so different from the rest of the western clichès and tropes that maybe it is not correct to identify it as a "westerns game" at all. Maybe when we criticize western gaming or WRPG we need to discriminate also between U.S. and other western countries. However S.T.A.L.K.E.R was only a single exception to the general desolation. By the end of 2015 I was almost quitting gaming.

As I said, for me Persona 4 was a true revelation, in particular when compared with the rest of WRPGs. It had:
- Completely original setting: a little CONTEMPORARY rural town!
- The main characters are not superheroes with bodybuilding bodies (and big boobs in case of females) and with square jaws (for both males and females), but just ordinary teenagers with a slender and normal aspect!
- The story is actually interesting, with a real mystery that keep you guessing to the end.
- The "powers" that allows the main characters to fight the monsters are not standard bombastic superpowers, they are subtle and pertain to the acceptance of the self.
- The monsters... Their design is anything than trivial. So different and novel when compared with western games.
- Interesting NPCs everywhere (Ok, this is thanks to the implementation of the date sim aspects of the game).
- TURN BASED COMBAT!!!! Read that again. I didn't believe my eyes when I realized that. Keep in mind that Persona 4 is a "modern" game. it was published in 2012 I think, that is in the years in which the common statement of western game developers and critics was that turn based was something prehistoric, very very "old" and not fun, and that all the new games should be more and more action oriented to be "modern".
- For the first time I had a vision of what a modern turn based combat system could have been evolved into, if it wasn't for the word of the God of the west that totally banished it from AAA RPGs. The combats in Persona 4 were very intense, strategic, dynamic. Even from the presentation point of view they were more dynamic and beautifully choreographed than any action WRPGs I have played so far.

Other JRPGs soon followed in my esplorative playing list: the other Persona games (emulating the PS1, PSP, PS2 and also the PS3 for Persona 5), then I switched to play the even more interesting original SMT games and all the available spin-off (Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga, 1&2, Raidou Kuzunoha 1&2 for the PS2, Devil Surivor 1&2, Strange Journey for the DS, SMT 4 & Apocalypse, Persona Q for the 3DS, etc..., etc....). The I added to the list many, many, many other JRPGs from other franchises/developers (although SMT and Atlus remain my favorite). I think I played almost all the most famous and/or the best translated JRPGs, the only exception is Final Fantasy, for the moment I was able to play only the 7, 8 and 9. I don't like the chibi style of the early SNES games, and I tried FFX and FFXII several times but abandoned early in the play due to boredom.

It's incredible how many games I was able to play in so few years (more than an hundred in four year) and now, understandably I feel a bit of fatigue... and I am not compelled to play them as before. But this is what in the end I found good in JRPGs: while I recognize now that too many of them have a lot of problems and their share of insufferable tropes and clichès, at that time in my life (2015-), they were my most needed antidote to the stagnant western gaming culture that nauseated me.
 
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Au Ellai

Educated
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
40
I'll be the literal "that one dude who called it mature" regarding Breath of Fire V: Dragon Quarter. Game got a bad rap, but I feel it's undeserved and is just because it's different than the rest of the series, not a legit bad game. It's actually an incredible game. I'd go as far as to call it the best game out of the PS2 era (or at least in the top 3). Though we're not talking about 'best', but 'mature', and I'd go as far as to see it's pretty far up there on that maturity scale. If you were to use a definition that said 'mature' as in well developed systems, or game design matured through iteration and development and attention to detail, it's high up there. The raw design of the game and how every single system interlocks into either other displays a maturity in game design rarely seen. If you want to define 'mature' as in tone, its cell shaded graphics contrast with a world that is dark and bleak without being an edgy grimdark setting. It's a story of a few friends in a hopeless world simply trying to get to the surface. No flash, no huge "epic" battles, no terrible love stories, no cringy try-hard dialogue, just a group of friends trying to survive against a cold world. Nina's story is pretty heartbreaking as well, with the 'mature' aspect coming from how subtle and understated it is. Another example of its maturity is just how few people "got" it. Everyone wanted a colorful "Ryu and waifu Nina are gonna turn into dragons and save the world yay!" child-like anime game like the first 4. What they got was a story more subtle than most anything else at the time with surprisingly complex and interlocking mechanics deep enough that it takes dozens of hours to really uncover, and they couldn't quite handle it, and if the definition of maturity isn't "something that idiots and children don't have the means to grasp", then what is?

I know the game is widely hated, but I'll maintain until my death that it's ignorance and most people just didn't have the time or gumption to put actual effort into the game and just hated it because it wasn't the happy anime game they expected. It'd one of my all time favorite games and I'll defend it on my death bed.
 

Terra

Cipher
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Messages
897
BoF V was awesome, I really remember that feeling when I realised I'd fucked up by using too much D-counter and wouldn't be able to make it through to the end of the game. Some legit tough fights too.

Any kind of timer system or similar mechanic that hurries people along in a game tends to make a bunch of people spazz out though, even when said game is built around and benefits from said mechanic: see Fallout, Dead Rising, Pathfinder Kingmaker for those types of complaints.

Everyone wanted a colorful "Ryu and waifu Nina are gonna turn into dragons and save the world yay!" child-like anime game like the first 4. What they got was a story more subtle than most anything else at the time with surprisingly complex and interlocking mechanics deep enough that it takes dozens of hours to really uncover, and they couldn't quite handle it, and if the definition of maturity isn't "something that idiots and children don't have the means to grasp", then what is?

I know the game is widely hated, but I'll maintain until my death that it's ignorance and most people just didn't have the time or gumption to put actual effort into the game and just hated it because it wasn't the happy anime game they expected. It'd one of my all time favorite games and I'll defend it on my death bed.
Hmm, BoF V was the second dark BoF in a row I'd say. You had villages being sacrificed to fire that cannonade, Cray's girl got turned into some monstrosity and he's forced to euthanise her as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting (hell even the colour pallette and artstyle was much more subdued compared with past entries). I recall being annoyed that the main baddie behind the scenes in BoFIV just got to walk away at the end; that defintely left a sour taste in my mouth about IV. Similarly BoF V had something about that wasn't fully... realised, I suppose, both in terms of the D-ratio system gating content behind multiple playthroughs and the overall structure of the game itself to some extent. It felt like it was aiming to be something more than what it ended up as. Still a great game and I loved the battle system once I got to grips with it.

Still preferred III over the others though.
 

Au Ellai

Educated
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
40
I usually hate timers in games too, but the D-Timer ended up being brilliant since it was tied directly to your gameplay abilities. You essentially had unlimited power at any moment and could do as much damage as you wanted to the point of one-shotting any enemy or boss you came across, or you could completely skip any non-boss encounter, but it came with an enormous cost and the aspect of balancing that cost against your game's progress is just one of many examples of how well developed the game's design in having interlinking dependent game systems was. Of course barely anyone wanted to dig that deep and just thought 'eww a timer!'

It's true there were plenty of dark moments across the series, but I think what I was trying to get at is since we're talking about the nebulous "maturity" here, in other games it felt a little more explicit and blatant that 'bad shits happening here guys!' Where in Dragon Quarter, some of the darkness feels more subtle and understated with less happy moments to balance them out, making the few heartwarming moments even more important. But yeah, even as far back as BoF1 there were some pretty brutal scenes.

Similarly BoF V had something about that wasn't fully... realised, I suppose

Can't argue with that, really. As much as I'm head over heels in love with the game, it did feel a little bit like you were catching a glimpse of something more that could have been while playing it. Imo the game was a bit ahead of its time, doing the memey 'dark souls hard' before that was fashionable and incorporating roguelike elements before the roguelite craze. Being one of the early adopters of a lot of game elements that would come later meant there was less of a blueprint to work with with some things not working out as well as they could have.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
29,607
This would be funny if the kid in question was 7, but he is 17 or something.
Luke was kidnapped when he was a child and after he was found he's not allowed to leave mansion. So he's literally kid. And said "general" is one of the very few people he knows and trusts.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Luke was kidnapped when he was a child and after he was found he's not allowed to leave mansion. So he's literally kid.

By Japanese maturity standards, probably. 17-year olds are anything but "kids".

And said "general" is one of the very few people he knows and trusts.

It doesn't make his retarded rant anything less retarded, that you think that is a good justification is laughable and says a lot about JRPG writing standards.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
29,607
Luke was kidnapped when he was a child and after he was found he's not allowed to leave mansion. So he's literally kid.

By Japanese maturity standards, probably. 17-year olds are anything but "kids".

And said "general" is one of the very few people he knows and trusts.

It doesn't make his retarded rant anything less retarded, that you think that is a good justification is laughable and says a lot about JRPG writing standards.
Iirc after kidnapping he got amnesia and even had to learn how to walk again. So yes - he's basically 7 years old.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
29,607
I'm trying to avoid spoilers here!
 

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