Investing in stores in Oblivion

[Naked_Lunch]

You wanted an answer and I gave you it. Christcakes, talk about ungrateful.

 

[Twinfalls]

That wasn't an answer, buttkins.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

It was the only answer I could give you regarding the matter. Now shaddup.

 

[kingcomrade]

Mostly Androgynous Penis Eater. That's what it stands for. NL will try to deny it, of course.

 

[dongle]

Oh, there is a middle ground. At least thats where I like to think I am.

Don't we all.

Luckily we have internet forums to decide who's really right. :D

If you want to occupy the middle ground, you should stick with:
It doesn't matter much - it's not important to me.

To me falling back on "the game will be awesome, relax" sounds like more of knee-jerk fanboy reaction than trying to explain reasonably why a certain feature is a Good Thing. Maybe that's just because that's what 90% of the TES forum posts contain?

 

[dongle]

And you are getting there, congratulations!

Hang, on what bandwagon am I jumping on? I wouldn't want to screw this up now. . . .

 

[Excalibur]

I GOT A GREAT IDEA!!!!

why doesnt everyone shut the fuck up and stop talking about shit they have no clue about!
And wait untill the game comes out next week. Then you can start bitching, talking shit praising!

 

[dongle]

And wait untill the game comes out next week.

We'll all be huddled in our parent's basements playing Oblivion 24/7 next week. No time for posting then.

 

[RK47]

if someone actually seed this masterpiece over BT , I might just get it. but right now....NOPE!

 

[Twinfalls]

It was the only answer I could give you regarding the matter. Now shaddup.

I'm gonna slap you around, cowkid.

 

[Twinfalls]

Then you can start bitching, talking shit praising!

Are you trying to rap?

 

[Section8]

Flashback to page 8...

How does MW's narrative (you cant lump OB in there because you havent played it yet) conflict with the open ended nature of the world - especially considering that once the main storyline is completed, you can STILL play the game.

The fact that there are dozens of characters who "are essential to the threads of prophecy" and cannot be killed without breaking the game is a good indicator. Maybe I could buy that Caius Cosades is a major player in bringing about the Nerevarine prophecies, but there's way too many bit players who are only tagged as "important" because Bethesda's quests weren't designed to be robust.

We're hearing of similar things with regard to Radiant AI, and the "important NPC with crown icon" shit. Being able to kill anyone I want is part of the sandbox experience. NPCs creating interesting emergent situations is part of the sandbox experience. The fact that freedoms are routinely curtailed to accomodate the presence of breakable, linear quest lines is what I'm getting at here.

Also, Morrowind's narrative is served up in such a transparent way, and there's never any kind of compulsion for the player character to pursue it. You have to stop exercising freedom and pursuing the path you chose, in order to step through a dull, linear quest string.

Fallout on the other hand, put you to task, gave you a logical starting point and set you loose. In the course of pursuing that goal, the narrative unwinds and adapts around you. The idiot concept of differentiating the freeform world and "main quest" just isn't there. Even if you're just out to explore the world, ignoring the need of a waterchip, the threads of the narrative are there to stumble upon as you're told of more and more settlements.

But you can hardly say that a simple economy system COMPLETELY rips you out of the game; unless of course for every quest you do, or every dungeon you raid youre thinking "Oh whats the point, the games economy is broke - screw it. . ."

It's just another pile of straw being heaped onto a camel that broke a long time ago. Although, in Morrowind I got to the point where I just couldn't be bothered exploring and discovering (the game's big strength) because there wasn't much point. I had a ludicrous amount of money, about 10x that in assets waiting for sale, and so all that was left was pursuing some of the tepid quest lines.

What game has done this? Unless they utilized random scripts that generated random, never-ending quests - no game is going to be able to achieve this (this gen).

That's the whole point of a sandbox game. Space Rangers 2, Mount & Blade, Sea Dogs, UnReal World, Daggerfall or even to a lesser extent, GTA:San Andreas spring to mind as games that provide a "never-ending" supply of procedural quests. Unfortunately, most of the forementioned games eventually run out of worthwhile ways to spend the rewards you gain. But that's certainly not beyond the reach of anyone. Most MMOGs have a seemingly endless supply of worthwhile money-sinks, and there's no reason why single player RPGs can't easily apply this.

The SPEECHCRAFT interface is not a "game". Its simply a dial at the top of the screen that displays a characters reaction depending on certain choices. As they said, its merely a visual cue to aid in gleaning information for those who wish to use it, or are good at SC.

It also happens that those certain choices must be made by interacting with that dial, and all the while, disposition is dropping, meaning the faster you are when it comes to twiddling that thumbstick, the better you will be at persuasion. We'll wait and see, but that pretty much fits the definition of minigame to me.

Because they chose to play a character a certain way. If someone creates a Night Elf pure-mage, and roleplay as such - what sense does it make then to pump all their time into being good with blunt weapons or sneaking?

I'd forgotten how much the "Elder Scrolls School of Roleplaying Thought" gets on my nerves. You've missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that the player should face arbitrary restrictions of choice, I'm saying that the choices they make should cause conflict, because conflict is interesting.

If I choose to be a Night Elf pure-mage, then I'd like to have a hard time dealing with xenophobic Day Elves. I want to see certain factions that are phobic toward the magical arts.

The unfettered freedom of the recent Elder Scrolls games annoys me. To me it feels like playing through Doom with degreelessness mode on. There's just no challenge to it, and it winds up being an altogether shallow experience.

Was it a CRITICAL success as well? The folks who applauded MW for what it accomplished, are they hacks? And if so, are they still hacks for heaping praise on FALLOUT as well?

Hah! There's no such thing as a game critic. The gaming media is an extension of the marketing machine, nothing more. They may not necessarily be hacks, but their bias doesn't actually serve the consumer in a positive way.

Hitler

Okay, go back and read my original statement - 'Or to use an obscenely extreme analogy. "Hitler wouldn't have killed 6 million Jews if he wasn't on to something." '

This has nothing to do with comparing anything or anyone to Hitler, nor does it have anything to do with Hitler as a political figure. It's about using big numbers to justify something.

 

[Solik]

The "it makes sense / can be explained" argument knocks you off the middle ground and straight into Unquestioning Fanboy Anonymous.

Rubbish. People who think it doesn't matter much or that it's not that important frequently think so because they have no problems explaining it away to themselves. It's a skill learned from playing lots of games and wanting to capture suspension of disbelief in all of 'em, no matter what. You get more enjoyment out of all of your purchases.

This has nothing to do with comparing anything or anyone to Hitler, nor does it have anything to do with Hitler as a political figure. It's about using big numbers to justify something.

This was solved pages ago, and it was demonstrated how you were wrong.

 

[Teb]

No, it would force players to figure out what was going on.

I'm all for forcing a playing to figure things out.

The principle is the player have to make a informed option because if he is not informed then he is simply making a wild guess and hoping it works

What you are saying is akin to having all your senses removed ... would be that "fun" in real life?

In real life, I don't possess some kind of sixth sense that allows me to see the "true" value of everything in the world. If the displayed values were estimates based on character skills (e.g., mercantile), I would have less problem with showing the value to the player. But, as the situation stands, having a unchanging "true" value visible to the player takes abstraction to a nonsensical level.

Giving it a base price simply removed the "walking around trying to figure out the best deal"

I would like RPG economies to be robust enough to at least support the player shopping around for the best offer or deal.

I agree with hiding stats in RPGs, but only after the system makes good intuitive sense. On this basis, I think stat hiding in TES games is a long way off.

Very good point but an intuitive system with most stats hidden would be the ideal RPG system for me.

 

[ANDS!]

Ghan is pointing out the well-known fact that one can either be entirely critical of a game, or love it unquestioningly.

Bullshit. This entire thread has been a "holy hell merchants with infinte money! The game MUST suck" love fest. To point out the contradictory applicaiton of standards is hardly the same as refusing to see the middle ground.

Someone points out that the lack of horse reins looks silly, you go to town on them for being single-minded Oblivion bashers.

Off the top of my head - the one making the loudest noise regarding the horse issue, does pretty much fit the single-minded Oblivion bashing mentality.

As regards the trading system, I agree that it's not one of the most important features, but I do think it could easily have been done better - and indeed that it should have been.

Heres what I dont get - do you really think the developers are sitting back thinking to themselves - "Hey lets say fuck all to the merchant system - we dont need to worry about it". Isnt it possible that these ideas that you think are good ones - theyve had or workshopped and simply came to the conclusion - "Yanno what, it would be too hard, and not relevant to code"? Theres a lot of stuff the left out (Crafting, marraige, building a house, running for mayor or whatever) - but does that mean they didnt THINK of it.

No offense but are you a programmer? A coder? Ever written AI routines before? I sincerely think its not as easy as "Hey lets sit down for 24 hours and knock this outta the park".

The fact that there are dozens of characters who "are essential to the threads of prophecy" and cannot be killed without breaking the game is a good indicator. Maybe I could buy that Caius Cosades is a major player in bringing about the Nerevarine prophecies, but there's way too many bit players who are only tagged as "important" because Bethesda's quests weren't designed to be robust.

/bangs head -

Ok - this is getting surreal. If Im to understand your criticism - youre upset, that BETH had the audacity to build a system, that relied on you to get from point A to point Z, and built it in such a way that killing a critical NPC would result in your inability to complete the main storyline? Please dont tell me THAT is your criticism man, because that is BEYOND petty. I'll have to fire up FALLOUT again - but there is no way you can be serious about this complain. I mean REALLY mate - your pissed because you cant kill STORYLINE characters? Incredible.

It's just another pile of straw being heaped onto a camel that broke a long time ago.

The amount of animus and bitching about the "broken economy" would lead any learned person to assign it a value equivalent to the level of consternation on the part of the protestors. Call it a "straw man" as often as you'd like - but the comment stands: is the economy system THAT IMPORTANT that it is able to ruin a persons enjoyment of the game.

That's the whole point of a sandbox game. Space Rangers 2, Mount & Blade, Sea Dogs, UnReal World, Daggerfall or even to a lesser extent, GTA:San Andreas spring to mind as games that provide a "never-ending" supply of procedural quests.

Randomly generated "Insert Persons Name Here" quests - arent dynamically updating quests. Theyre just randomly generated mobs that randomly spawn new mobs, and new Fetch Items, and new loot. GTA definitely was NOT an open ended game, as you could not move forward unless you adhered to the SAME linear storyline that the developers had laid out. Sure you could do side quests (which you can do here), but ultimately the main storyline was unbreakable and was unbreakable for a reason - because its THE STORY.

Unfortunately, most of the forementioned games eventually run out of worthwhile ways to spend the rewards you gain. But that's certainly not beyond the reach of anyone. Most MMOGs have a seemingly endless supply of worthwhile money-sinks, and there's no reason why single player RPGs can't easily apply this.

Comparing this game to a ORPG is impossible. In an ORPG you're not competing against AI-controlled NPC's - you're working with real humans who can make real-time decisions and choices. As for open-ended content - show me which one and I'll plunk down my 14.95 a month. I dont consider raiding and grinding for the next level of items game-generated content.

I'm saying that the choices they make should cause conflict, because conflict is interesting.

Yanno maybe if you actually took the time to say "THIS is how it should be done" - we wouldnt get caught up in these games of assuming and what not. Sadly, most folks here doing the poo-pooing fail to back it up with any counter-examples.

If I choose to be a Night Elf pure-mage, then I'd like to have a hard time dealing with xenophobic Day Elves.

So - you want AI that treats you differently based on what kind of character you create - not an invalid complaint, but one that doesnt fit into what BETH wants out of this game. Again, they have no interest in BREAKING the main storyline, and implementing what you've suggested could possibly do that. What happens if a player is unable to advance in the storyline because for some reason the main character just doesnt like him and refuses to talk to him. Thats a gamebreaker - and again - just not fun.

Maybe one day they will release a game that has NO STORY, and no OBJECTIVES - but is just you running around doing sod all, and hoping the AI-scripting is advanced enough to keep up and respond in kind. This is not that game however, and was never meant to be.

Hah! There's no such thing as a game critic. The gaming media is an extension of the marketing machine, nothing more. They may not necessarily be hacks, but their bias doesn't actually serve the consumer in a positive way.

Well thats convenient - dismiss out of hand an argument with little more than "Corporations are evil".

 

[Drakron]

I'm all for forcing a playing to figure things out.

Just like MMORPG players go around "figure out" drop rates?

That is not good, the rules sould be layed out and everyone being aware of what they are ... not trying to "find out" why X does more damage that Y.

In real life, I don't possess some kind of sixth sense that allows me to see the "true" value of everything in the world. If the displayed values were estimates based on character skills (e.g., mercantile), I would have less problem with showing the value to the player. But, as the situation stands, having a unchanging "true" value visible to the player takes abstraction to a nonsensical level.

I agree but then there is the point were the developers decide "hey, nobody wants this" and there goes the apraise and knowledge skills.

In way they are right because most shops would be honest, you dont walk into a jewelry and come out with a zircon stone thinking its a diamond because you dont know the diference, someone can and the moment they do you get pissed enough and take action.

Things dont exist on a void, even in the dark ages the penalty of counterfit was enough to make people to be relative honest.

And that is the problem, most of the time the real value is not going to be a issue and so you are left when they must be a issue and that means quests.

I am in no way making excuses, the reason they put is because it saves the player time and make it easier for then ... I disagree and think they sould put apraise on gems and artwork with magical weapons require divination spells.

Very good point but an intuitive system with most stats hidden would be the ideal RPG system for me.

But not for me or a lot of people since "guess work" is only fun for some people with too much time in their hands and a love for mathmatics.

 

[dongle]

This entire thread has been a "holy hell merchants with infinte money! The game MUST suck" love fest.

Sorry, you must be reading a different thread than me. I see a bunch of people saying "Holy hell merchants with infinite money! That sucks! Here's an interesting way it FIX it." That's constructive intelligent criticism. Happens every damn day here.

If you feel the game economy suits you just fine, say so by pointing out what works for you. If you feel you need to test it out some in-game first to be sure, pipe up and say why that matters. If you feel the solutions offered don't work for you, for fuck's sake let us know how -you'd- fix it. This business of getting all huffy because someone dared criticize something you hold dear, and pointing out that the -rest- of the game is perfect to you, just makes you look pathetic. It serves no purpose but filling up interesting threads with pointless whining.

 

[Section8]

Ok - this is getting surreal. If Im to understand your criticism - youre upset, that BETH had the audacity to build a system, that relied on you to get from point A to point Z, and built it in such a way that killing a critical NPC would result in your inability to complete the main storyline? Please dont tell me THAT is your criticism man, because that is BEYOND petty. I'll have to fire up FALLOUT again - but there is no way you can be serious about this complain. I mean REALLY mate - your pissed because you cant kill STORYLINE characters? Incredible.

I'm pissed because the concept of "Storyline characters" shouldn't exist in a freeform sandbox. Bethesda have taken the "no man's land" middleground approach. Subjective, I know, but IF they actually had a storyline worth following, and a better method of delivery, then maybe it's worth that sacrifice to freedom.

I've also made the point several times throughout the thread, that the emergent systems that greatly benefit a sandbox style game can easily supplant the rigidity required to preserve in the integrity of a narrowly scripted storyline.

So I guess in essence, my complaint is that Bethesda is not making what I see as the logical progression from the potential and ambition of Daggerfall. Instead, they're essentially making the same sort of generic high-fantasy RPGs as everyone else, they're just adding more content.

The amount of animus and bitching about the "broken economy" would lead any learned person to assign it a value equivalent to the level of consternation on the part of the protestors. Call it a "straw man" as often as you'd like - but the comment stands: is the economy system THAT IMPORTANT that it is able to ruin a persons enjoyment of the game.

I wasn't intending to make "straw man" allusions, I was refering to the "straw that broke the camel's back." The animosity shown by the community here is a cumulative disdain, as nearly every feature that sounded promising is revealed to be over-simplified, sometimes to the point of regression. No, the economy system is not going to ruin the experience, but it's another candidate for the laundry list of missed opportunity.

The impression I get, is that mercantile and speechcraft skills were only left in to quell the "cutting too many skills" argument. They certainly don't sound interesting or useful enough to warrant adding to a character build, unless you want to play make-believe and pretend the game has more to offer in the areas it has neglected.

Randomly generated "Insert Persons Name Here" quests - arent dynamically updating quests. Theyre just randomly generated mobs that randomly spawn new mobs, and new Fetch Items, and new loot.

Okay, point taken, but I'll still maintain that it's not beyond the reach of any developer. Think about Civilisation's "contain <empire's> aggression" pacts. They're a good solid example of reactive "quest" generation. The supply/demand model of most trading games are another example, even if they're not served up by an NPC saying "go here, do this," the player is still being rewarded for being part of negative feedback correction. How hard is it to expand upon that so that NPCs can become aware of statistical shortcomings and ask the player to rectify it? Or even talk to one another and pass it on the player through inference, as is the Oblivion method of questing.

GTA definitely was NOT an open ended game, as you could not move forward unless you adhered to the SAME linear storyline that the developers had laid out. Sure you could do side quests (which you can do here), but ultimately the main storyline was unbreakable and was unbreakable for a reason - because its THE STORY.

I was referring more to the burglary, taxi driving, valet parking, pimping, vigilante, triathlon, paramedic, pizza delivery, etc. missions, which are randomly generated, but it's a moot point given that they're not reactively generated.

Comparing this game to a ORPG is impossible.

I wasn't doing so. I was simply saying that MMOGs, recognising the need to continually give the mule a carrot to reach for, provide ample way for even the most seasoned player to spend their rewards. Perhaps Diablo II would be a better example. Basically, I was pondering why many CRPGs inevitably offer the player very little to spend their money on, despite a ludicrous "income."

Yanno maybe if you actually took the time to say "THIS is how it should be done" - we wouldnt get caught up in these games of assuming and what not. Sadly, most folks here doing the poo-pooing fail to back it up with any counter-examples.

Stick around. "THIS is how it should be done" is one of my favourite things. Up there with bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens.

So - you want AI that treats you differently based on what kind of character you create - not an invalid complaint, but one that doesnt fit into what BETH wants out of this game.

That's actually the source of my many complaints. What I considered to be the next logical step from Daggerfall was not a much smaller world devoid of randomly generated content and countless shortcomings. Bethesda saw differently, and so I express (with a full awareness of the futility) my disagreement with their decisions and principles. The basica underlying concept of the Elder Scrolls games strikes a chord with me. A vast, freeform fantasy world simulation would probably be my ideal game. But when it comes to actual implementation, my opinion, and Bethesda's clash with regard to almost everything.

Well thats convenient - dismiss out of hand an argument with little more than "Corporations are evil".

Convenience doesn't mean there isn't truth to my dismissal. I'm sure there are legitimate reviews of games out there, but on the whole, the gaming media are boys crying wolf. There's enough untrustworthy and disingenuous content out there that it's simpler to just throw a blanket of distrust over the whole fucking lot, and rely on word of mouth from mates with similar tastes in games.

 

[Human Shield]

The unfettered freedom of the recent Elder Scrolls games annoys me. To me it feels like playing through Doom with degreelessness mode on. There's just no challenge to it, and it winds up being an altogether shallow experience.

But you can IMAGINE that you are taking damage! You can roleplay getting a leg wound then you can hold walk for the rest of the game. And you can imagine that you are collecting barrels for money and then when you have enough you can switch to a new weapon. DOOM is the deepest roleplaying game ever you just lack the imagination to see its freedom!!!1111

 

[VenomByte]

No offense but are you a programmer? A coder? Ever written AI routines before? I sincerely think its not as easy as "Hey lets sit down for 24 hours and knock this outta the park".

This one wasn't addressed to me, but my answers to the above questions are 'yes'. 'yes', and 'yes'.

Now I appreciate that whilst the formula can be done in an hour, it would take much longer than that to implement. But I seriously don't believe that it would take more than a day or two, at most, for an alternative solution to be implemented and tested pretty well.

Considering the amount of time spent coding RAI to create believable NPC schedules and 'bring them to life', wouldn't it have made sense to spend another day or two on merchants?

 

[bryce777]

When it comes to acting, art direction, camerawork, direction...and basically every element that makes up a movie, seventh seal is widely regarded as one of the best movies ever made, whereas scream does not come close.

Definition: A proposition is held to be true because it is widely held to be true or is held to be true by some (usually upper crust) sector of the population.

Snicker.

Fuck, you really are an idiot. Did you even go to school? I already explained why you are wrong.

If I claimed 7th seal was great because tehe boys at nasa and my country club say so, that is a false appeal to authority. If the movie directors of america believe it so it does not necessarily prove it, but it is not a false appeal to authority.

Yet, on the other hand, youa re saying because dumbasses off the street buy their game, bethesda is a good developer, which is an appeal to popularity, whcih is ALWAYS a fallacy, fuckwit.

By your logic, if random people support something that leads it credence, and if experts support it then it's false.

 

[galsiah]

This entire thread has been a "holy hell merchants with infinte money! The game MUST suck" love fest.

No. It's been a "This aspect of the game completely sucks" love fest. Which it does.

No offense but are you a programmer? A coder? Ever written AI routines before?

Well let me see... That would be: Yes, yes and yes.
[By the way, how can a programmer not be a coder or vice versa? You seem confused.]

I sincerely think its not as easy as "Hey lets sit down for 24 hours and knock this outta the park".

Programming in general is not that easy. Here are some hard programming tasks:
Design and code the graphics engine.
Design and code the physics engine.
Design and code the AI.

Here, on the other hand is a very easy task:
Design and code a better trading system than they've got.

Why is this easy:
(1) It's simple: my method above for selling involved about 4 variables and one equation. A method for buying would be about as complex.
(2) It is well encapsulated and loosely coupled: there is no wide ranging effect of the exact design of the system on the rest of the game. The only balance that needs controlling is a gold / items balance, which can be altered entirely within the system: Item cost has no effect on any other part of the game, so it can be adjusted to any value. As can merchant skill and barter gold (or equivalent).
There won't be any strange side effects, so you can use the variables in any way you like, altering them as you please to achieve a reasonable balance. It is not rocket science.
(3) Their current system is terrible. Improving it does not take a genius.

Heres what I dont get - do you really think the developers are sitting back thinking to themselves - "Hey lets say fuck all to the merchant system - we dont need to worry about it". Isnt it possible that these ideas that you think are good ones - theyve had or workshopped and simply came to the conclusion - "Yanno what, it would be too hard, and not relevant to code"?

It is not too hard. Any programmer will tell you so.
If credibility of the game world is not relevant, that's pretty unfortunate.
If they did think long and hard about it, and decided on the system we've got, I worry for their sanity.
I really hope it didn't occur to them.

Theres a lot of stuff the left out (Crafting, marraige, building a house, running for mayor or whatever) - but does that mean they didnt THINK of it.

Some of that has more implications for development time - requiring extra voice acting, or artwork, and affecting other aspects of the game world more directly.

They didn't leave out trade. They screwed it up. There is a difference.

 

[Oarfish]

Item cost has no effect on any other part of the game

Agree with most of what you said, but that simply isn't true from the point of view of game design. From a software design perspective, its almost certainly going to be true however.

 

[galsiah]

Sure. I just mean that item cost affects the trading system and nothing else. Clearly if a quest reward is Item X which is worth 50000, but otherwise useless, then changing the cost of this item to 100 affects the quest.

This will be true with any trade system, and is something that needs to be balanced. It is pretty much the only thing that needs to be balanced though. So long as you keep the player's rewards and buying potential reasonably balanced, you are free to do whatever you like with the system - hopefully so that it makes sense.

I'm sure that switching Oblivion's system to the one I outlined would change the balance. I think assuming that Oblivion's balance is good as it stands is a little silly given the track record.

What does their system allow in quest design terms? To be able to award the player with items worth 20000, but be comfortable in the knowledge that he hasn't a hope of selling them. Hardly a design triumph.

Perhaps a system like mine might be a little harder to balance well - it might even require sane quest reward item values. It might force designers to have the game world make a bit of sense in this area. I would hope they're doing this already though.

The current system probably makes it easier to design quests that don't screw up the balance of the game - even if they have no credibility. Very high rewards can even be given - not by giving an item worth 100000, of course, but by sending the player away with a truckload of items worth 1000.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

When it comes to acting, art direction, camerawork, direction...and basically every element that makes up a movie, seventh seal is widely regarded as one of the best movies ever made.

Definition: A proposition is held to be true because it is widely held to be true or is held to be true by some (usually upper crust) sector of the population.

I just thought this was too good not to post again. It doesn't get any cooler than someone doing a letter-perfect version of the definition of an appeal to popular authority, although the indignant efforts to claim that it's okay because
you're really pissy are funny.

Here's Brycean logic -- it's fun, even a retarded puppy can do it:

(1) If intellectuals say that a form of entertainment is high art, then it is proven to be good.

(2) If millions of people are entertained by a form of entertainment, then nothing is proven.

After all, they're probably just being "tricked" by the Daggerfall name like our retarded puppy was.

At bottom, I think our disagreement is that I think the measure of whether a entertainment is good or not is whether it entertains, you think the measure of whether it's good or not is whether Leonard Malkin likes it. What's ironic is that Morrowind was the RPG of the year on IGN, Gamespy, print mags, etc. Now, since I don't defer to "experts" to tell me what's fun and what isn't, I've come to my own conclusion that Morrowind isn't great . . . .