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Is it bad design to allow a player to create a nonviable character? (Age of Decadence)

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Tavernking, May 11, 2019.

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Do you think it's bad design to allow players to create failed builds?

Poll closed Jun 8, 2019.
  1. Yes

    54 vote(s)
    23.0%
  2. No

    181 vote(s)
    77.0%
  1. Tavernking Don't believe his lies Shitposter

    Tavernking
    Joined:
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    In VTM Bloodlines, if you only focus on social skills and don't put any points into combat or stealth, you could render the game nearly non-completable because combat is mandatory in many parts of the game.

    AoD is much more brutal, and it practically forces you to start savescumming early on. You could render the game ENTIRELY non-completable if you refuse to revert to an earlier save to remedy your mistakes.

    Do you think it's bad design to allow players to create failed builds?
     
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  2. BANANA CONDUCT Savant

    BANANA CONDUCT
    Joined:
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    No.
    I, as an RPG player, retain my right to go full retard
     
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  3. nobre Savant

    nobre
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    No.

    Git gud or die trying
     
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  4. Dyskolos Cipher

    Dyskolos
    Joined:
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    Depends on the game. It would be shitty - because inconsistent - in something developers aim at a general audience and otherwise account for retarded playstyles by keeping easy and dumbed down. But it feels within design consistency in something built to be tough and that expects player competency for success.

    And in the end real life mostly yields failed builds so why shouldn't games.
     
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  5. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    If you make a 20 hours long game and for 15 hours you can talk/stealth/whatever through just fine, and then suddenly some arbitrary bullshit prevents that and makes it impossible to finish, do you think that's not bad design?
     
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  6. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    With freedom of choice (i.e. a skill-based system that doesn't hold your hand the way class-based systems do) comes the freedom to make mistakes.
     
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  7. sser Arcane Cuck Developer

    sser
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  8. frajaq Arbiter

    frajaq
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    no, let the devs do whatever the fuck they want
     
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  9. Chippy Liturgist

    Chippy
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    Helps to go full retard from the get-go so that you become a god-like character with character in the end game.
     
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  10. HeatEXTEND Liturgist

    HeatEXTEND
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  11. Atrachasis Augur

    Atrachasis
    Joined:
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    Should the game designer guarantee that every player, on every playthrough, will reach a victory condition?

    I think not. Failure conditions have always been a part of gaming, and in almost every game invented prior to the advent of computers. Why should single player computer games be any different?

    Failed character builds are just one way of many in which the player may fail, nonetheless be entertained by the game up to a certain point, and restart with a better build.
     
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  12. Mastermind Arcane Patron Bethestard

    Mastermind
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    Yes as long as lethal game ending mistakes are reasonably avoidable.

    This is the problem with lazy skill check centered design in games like AoD.

    I blame Fallout for the utter degeneration of non-combat gameplay. It's easy to mock bethesda or bioware for their dialogue wheel retardation but the seeds were sown much earlier.
     
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  13. Big Wrangle Guest

    Big Wrangle
    Depends on what one means by mistake. There is certainly fun in finding yourself in a rough situation requiring you to do some serious improvisation to get out of. Such situations can end up being more memorable than the "viable" route.

    But if it's just "You literally cannot access anything" then yeah, not that interesting.
     
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  14. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    I recall an old drama on the Interplay forums. Someone bought was Fallout, got all excited about exploring the post-apocalyptic world and made a character specializing in outdoorsmanship, barter, and stealth. Naturally, he didn't enjoy the experience. Was it the developers' fault for not ensuring that any randomly-picked skills would allow him to beat the game? He seemed to think so because the skills were there and he was free to pick them ignoring the other, more useful skills.
     
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  15. Silentstorm Educated

    Silentstorm
    Joined:
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    Depends, but if there is a build that makes the game unwinnable after several hours because the developer didn't give me any other way then i would say it's a game i don't want to play.

    I remember being really annoyed at Sierra games for doing that and those games were much shorter, i hate the very idea of replaying a whole game from the start and doing 10 to more hours again with a different build even if i try something different just because the developer didn't account for anything.

    That wasn't that bad when i was younger, but nowadays that really doesn't fit my idea of fun at all.
     
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  16. Salvo Learned

    Salvo
    Joined:
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    No. If every build is able to clear everything, then what's the point of character building? Just make a visual novel, no?
     
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  17. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
    Joined:
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    12,673
    No.

    However, in AoD it's not about the ability to create non-viable characters. It's about only being able to play what the developers allowed you to.
    Which somehow is made to look by VD and his ass-kissers into the ultimate choices game. Hey, either play what VD wanted or fail is a choice, no? :lol:
     
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  18. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    Affirmative action RPGs FTW!


    Srsly, without larping fruitcakes who ragequit RPGs after realizing their mute half-orc wizards and str 3 gnome barbarians just don't cut it, how do we define who is gud at RPGs?
     
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  19. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
    Joined:
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    I’d say it isn’t bad design. But it’s good design if you give the player information on how skills interact with the world without having to get to the end of a playthrough where you realize you can no longer progress.
     
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  20. nobre Savant

    nobre
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    There is an ongoing debate going on on player skill versus character skill, with player skill being defined as a sound tactical mind, fast reflexes, or what have you. Much has been said whether this belongs in CRPGs or not. Some would say that character skill is way more important. I can only agree up to a point. That is because building a good character is fundamentally a player's skill, which comes with reading the manual, experience, intelligence, attentiveness, and so on.
     
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  21. Tacgnol Shitlord Patron

    Tacgnol
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Yeah, I think you should give players plenty of information about how skills/attributes (w/e) work, but ultimately if they want to go full retard that's their choice.

    Also some people enjoy playing really sub-optimal characters.
     
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  22. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    To be fair, if you're a newbie who doesn't know Fallout's systems yet, you might think that outdoorsman, barter and stealth are useful skills to have in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

    But at least the skills do something, so they're not entirely useless.
    Some older DOS games that copied a pen and paper system and just put in all the skills from the P&P without actually giving them any purpose in the game... yeah. Those sucked.
    Realms of Arkania and Megatraveller were notorious for this, iirc.
     
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  23. Sheep Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Sheep
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    I'd say the more reasonable middle ground would be to design the game with the mindset that retardedly bad builds should be punished in first hour or two of the game, so you think again and reroll.
     
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  24. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    That's actually a decent enough combo for pacifist run. Maybe add lockpicking/pickpocket, 10 DEX to run away and you might finish the game.

    Outdoorsman+Stealth allow you to avoid combat in random encounters and on actual maps & Barter has some game breaking potential when it comes to buying books and stimpacks.
     
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  25. Fluent Arcane Possibly Retarded The Real Fanboy

    Fluent
    Joined:
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    3,453
    I think there should be failsafes in place to make sure no nonviable characters are made. I know that sounds dumbed down, and in the past I'd probably go the hardcore route, but no one wants to play for 15 or 20 hours and hit a wall where you can't progress. Maybe class choices should limit what skills you can invest in and make sure there's enough skill checks for different builds to get through, or alternate ways to get through the game. Just my 2.
     
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