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Is there a story behind Temple+'s existence?

dechlog

Novice
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
22
Location
the Land between the Rivers of Blood
It appears that the Co8 fan patch ceased development and then Temple+ appeared (courtesy of former(?) Co8 contributors) and radically altered the status quo. Beyond the changelogs, is there anything interesting to tell about the wherefores? Was there some behind-the-scenes schism? Is there any juicy gossip?

As a NetHack fan, I've always appreciated the in-game "concise history of nethack" t-file which not only provides an overview of system changes and personnel but also addresses means and reasons. Are there any ToEE historians willing to dish dirt?
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Certainly! Gather round boys and girls, and I will tell you the tale of delicious butthurt modder drama...

It all started in the year of our mod 2013, when the fair prince Sitra embarked on a quest to find the holy Code of Source.

He cold called the Wise Man of Troika, but alas, he was bound by the web of the law +4, and failed his reflex save.

Thereafter, our fair prince had sought council with the Beamed-Dog. Tis a long tale worthy of a tome of its own, but suffice to say here's what came out of it:
Naught!
Well, that and KotB, for the Circle of Eight tried their hand at team building while fashioning their proposal for an edition of enhancements and awaiting The Answer. Which was naught.

Slightly daunted, our hero turned his sights inward. Teeth gnashing and buttocks clenched, he descended into the Abyss of Dillel. There lay many inscrutable symbols of power in a language he did not yet understand. And verily, the modder forsaken hell was crawling with hellish insects still. Nevertheless, armed with the ancient tomes of Moebius and the Spellslinger, it was but a few weeks later when our hero prevailed over his first foe, the Tripping Bug.

There was much rejoicing, and word of his deeds spread around the realm, earning new friends and recruitable NPCs. Together they took the Dillel by DarkStorm, and began construction of the Temple of Plus.

All was well in the realm, but alas, then came the Schism.

During the expeditions into the Dillel, a startling discovery was made - the Editor of Worlds was not in fact a Legendary Item (Gold), but merely Uncommon! (Green)
In fact, it was dropped by any lowly Kurwoid, at a rate of one-hundred per-cent. Twas an uneasy truth for the Guardians of the Editor, and the fair prince fell from grace as he shapeshifted into a Kurwoid, and defecated in the parlor (figuratively speaking).

The prince then sought refuge in Fair Codexia, and they all lived happily ever after, modding into the night!

That is, until a new ancient evil arose - the Curse of the Dread Baby! Mwahahahah
(Also Tekken. Dorya!)
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
I think it may have something to do with co8 withholding the dev tools for years from the community
 

Endarire

Scholar
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
395
FORENOTE: You can learn more about the development of ToEE by Googling "Temple of Elemental PC Troika Interview" and somesuch.

Sitra contacted me before releasing the first T+ version asking for my help with something. As the author of the Ronald Rynnwrathi character, I was comfortable allowing Ronald to be used in a ToEE remaster so to speak.

Consider also the history of ToEE: Atari wanted to release something D&D 3.0 (then later 3.5) in terms of video game. Troika wanted to do more than time and money allowed them to do well. The community - especially the Co8 folks - made mods to fix many, many, many of Troika's bugs while also adding content to improve the game. T+ continued that legacy by another means, via a different set of code hooks, and what became a separate executable.

Had Troika released its editor as a free download overtly in all regions, ToEE's modding community would have likely thrived more.

On the Co8/ToEE front and on a personal note, the people who vigorously contributed to ToEE's modding community starting in 2003 have grown. Many have careers, spouses, or/and kids. The childhood wonders of exploring an ancient evil temple with the intent of killing and looting have likely diminished in emotional value. People simply have different priorities since this game was released going on half my physical lifetime ago, though some still mod and play.

What I expected from ToEE coming into it over a decade ago was something akin to Baldur's Gate II, since I played BG1 & II so much. What I received was a 3.5 D&D video game that was generally too short and too swingy of difficulty. Realms Beyond seemingly is being made to rectify the 'too short game' and 'needs more modding support in a 3.5 turn-based CRPG' points. (You can still preorder the game at a discount via the 'Late Backer' button - at least as of this writing.)

Sitra: I appreciate your Bardic Perform check!
 
Last edited:

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Babies are epic level challenge.
They require lots of grinding, and the crafting costs are quite high as well!

On the matter of the Co8 mod - its cessation is unrelated. Gaear took the Co8 lead way back in 2008 or so and hung the towel in 2013, more or less, with the release of v8.1.0. He did a fine job keeping the torch aflame, without him I reckon the Co8 would have dissolved a long time ago.

Up until then I was more of a guest contributor than a full member. I 'joined up' in 2013 as part of the source code/beamdog efforts. In the year after Co8 8.1.0 we helped Shiningted with getting KotB out the door, and after it was released in 2014 that was it.

Regarding the dev tools (editor) - although I think keeping the tools hidden was a mistake, it's not so black and white as it may sound. Back when it was discovered, around 2008 I think, they had consulted with a former Troikan (not Tim) who advised them not to go public with it, and who was also helping out with figuring out the game data structures and such, so they didn't want to go against his advice. Additionally it was thought to be part of a limited release edition of the game. It was only in 2015 that DarkStorm (Pugmeister) found out it was part of the Polish patch all along, and so that hurdle was knocked down. I followed up and asked Tim if he minded that it be known (he didn't). However even with that cleared up I still got some resistance about releasing it. I got what seemed to me as some BS answers, got fed up and went ahead and "leaked" it (if you can call that a leak). That got me temp banned for a week, at which point I decided to break off, and DarkStorm came along. That's when this subforum came to be.

Temple+ was already well underway at that point. It was orthogonal to Co8 anyway (mainly DarkStorm and myself were working on it) and the break with them had no substantial bearing on it. And so we moved on.

Sadly, there have been exactly 0 additional mods produced with the editor after it was publicized - anyone who wanted to mod ToEE was already on board regardless of that, and unfortunately that's not a lot of people. Still, I wonder what could have been if the Co8 had pressed the issue further back when the editor was discovered, or perhaps a couple of years later - there was a major TB game drought in that time, and I reckon it would have gotten a lot more attention and enthusiasm than in the post-kickstarter era.

Anyway, that's all water under the bridge now. I've always been as much of a Dexer as a Co8er, so I'm comfortable in this little subforum here. I don't think there's any bad blood with the Co8, and whoever has the time, will and energy to mod ToEE is still at it regardless.

- Fin -
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
9,879
I think dechlog is disappointed there isn't any kotor2 restoration/wesp vs tesara modder drama.
 

dechlog

Novice
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
22
Location
the Land between the Rivers of Blood
Endarire posts a non-T+ related thing on the co8 forum which happens to involve T+ and they beat him up. Every time Sitra Achara posts there I just get the feeling that they don't appreciate him. Could be me though. I'm not well
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,859
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Endarire posts a non-T+ related thing on the co8 forum which happens to involve T+ and they beat him up. Every time Sitra Achara posts there I just get the feeling that they don't appreciate him. Could be me though. I'm not well
You're referring to Ted? Maybe, but he's always been a little snappy.
The only other active core Co8er is Allyx, as far as I know we're cool, and I've helped him a little with IWD too.
 

Endarire

Scholar
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
Messages
395
<shrug> I think we're all mature enough to get along and like each other when we want. I'd rather like my fellow forum goers.
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,561
No, Kurwa was a true 100% pierogiblooded Pollack, couldn't you tell by his mastery over the Polish language?
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,190
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
No, Kurwa was a true 100% pierogiblooded Pollack, couldn't you tell by his mastery over the Polish language?
No, since I cannot into potato.
 

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