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1eyedking Is Thief a downgrade from Deus Ex/System Shock 2/etc?

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Siel, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. Siel Arcane Patron

    Siel
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    Thief is the most elegant game to date. System Shock or Deus Ex don't hold a candle to that piece of Art.
     
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  2. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Fuck you do they not. You're confused, it's the other way around. And don't forget Ultima Underworld and Arx too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
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  3. Dev_Anj Learned

    Dev_Anj
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    You're dangerously close to ruffling quite a few feathers here. Also I completely disagree. Thief may not have the systems and elements of those games, but it is much more focused on one particular element: stealth, and does that way better than any of the games you mentioned. It also has much tighter level design too in my opinion.
     
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  4. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Does it look like I give a shit? Thief fags gonna be faggots, and Dev_Anj gonna Dev_Anj. Underworld was more revolutionary. Deus Ex was, well, Deus Ex, the "greatest PC game of all time" as the fanbase liked to recite, rough edges be damned. Shock 2 was just plain more stimulating and in my opinion more tight and accomplished. Even if one doesn't agree with this stance it should be VERY understandable as to why it is held, especially as Thief was a big divergence and compromise from what they were doing before. Lastly, I never said Thief was a bad game.
     
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  5. Dev_Anj Learned

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    And System Shock 1 and 2 weren't? Because I clearly remember they simplified a lot of stuff from Ultima Underworld in that game. Ditto with Deus Ex, it removed a lot of hard choices from System Shock 2 and the RPG elements were notably simplified to just skills and augs. That's not to say those are bad changes, I think they're good actually since they led to focus in different areas and made them accomplish different things, making them stand out from each other.
     
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  6. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    You clearly remember despite not having played Ultima Underworld nor System Shock 1...

    We've discussed this before, you and I, lets not go there again. Thief is a big divergence in more than just RPG systems. For instance all the classics except Thief share something in common I very much love: letting the player interact with the world on a very deep level. That to me is a very important component of an Immersive Sim. Thief is rather static in comparison.
     
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  7. Dev_Anj Learned

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    I don't need to play Ultima Underworld to know that System Shock 2 and Deus Ex have simplified systems in comparison, it's a very well discussed game on the Codex. I did play a bit of System Shock 1 and put it down because I didn't like the controls, but I know it has 0 RPG elements and is more of a shooter sci fi version of Ultima Underworld. It's pretty rich of you to make such an observation considering how quick you are to dismiss the design of most modern games without playing them just because they have simplifications/elements you don't like. But we'll not go there.

    I honestly don't see that. Thief still lets you throw around junk like vases, still lets you stack crates, and even has some unique movement options and modifiers too like rope arrows and moss arrows. If you mean those games are more interactive because you can right click on more stuff to say, play minigames or talk to people, or maybe they have more powers, then you would probably be right. I don't think Thief needs more powers or tools per se, but a bit more interactivity sure wouldn't hurt of course, as long as it's sensible. I didn't mind the level of interactivity of the first two games though.
     
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  8. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Yes, don't, because you've pulled that from your ass. You're referring to my stance on PREY there, yet it's a very valid stance as I already established and you've conveniently ignored. I'm basing my decision to assume the worst based on their previous handful of games, the fact they're owned by Bethesda, the gameplay footage they've already released, the fact they don't give a shit about raising the bar in the hardcore's eyes and more. If you're happy with "good for what it is" by all means, but I'm not and I've been burned too many times by game companies. Put another way, Dishonored disappointed me deeply, so why would I buy PREY?

    Overall interactivity in Thief is very limited. The environments are very static. You get very few tools to manipulate the environment, objects and AI. There's a severe lack of systems in general. It's a stealth game with lite Immersive Sim trappings and baseline, core design philosophy. I prefer what they were doing before and that's a very valid preference, let's leave it at that.
     
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  9. Dev_Anj Learned

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    I haven't ignored it, I just didn't bother mentioning it. Besides you mentioned it had "impure immersive sim" design because "Unless you think constant button prompts, objective updates, weapon wheels, in-world objective markers and more is what the Immersive Sim always needed..." . In any case, if you can make sweeping conclusions of its overall design based on those, I can make conclusions about the design of Underworld too based off discussions on the Codex, especially since there are some big fans of that game here.

    Again, in what significant way is Thief lacking in that department in comparison to say, System Shock 2 or Deus Ex? Those environments are mostly static too, besides the usual doors you can open, junk you can throw, crates you can stack(this option isn't in System Shock 2 by the way) and the few objects with special functionality you can use, like the medical bays or the repair bots in System Shock 2. I know you're going to respond with something like "You can hack computers, log in onto them and multitool devices/lockpick doors" but all those fall under the "few objects with special functionality" category. And once again, I wouldn't mind more sensible interactivity in Thief, I just don't find it as lacking as you do.

    By the way, don't think I missed you trying to put down my posts with negative emoticons. ;)
     
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  10. Latelistener Cipher

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    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Dev_Anj Learned

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    A discussion derailment about "Is Thief shit? Is it decline from Deus Ex/System Shock 2/et al?". That's what. ;)
     
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  12. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Your harassment of me is reaching critical levels, to the point that I'm not allowed to give opinions and observations. I will ask you for the fourth (fifth?) time, please fucking stop.
     
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  13. Dev_Anj Learned

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    Harassment? You insult Thief and expect a big Thief fan to remain silent?!
     
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  14. Ash Arcane

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    Except we're not talking about Thief now are we, we are talking about my valid observations and opinions of PREY given on another board.
    Please don't make me detail all the things you do that constitutes as harrassment. I already told you just yesterday I don't want conflict and I don't take joy in any of this. I asked that we start fresh.
     
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  15. Dev_Anj Learned

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    Ah, but we're talking about Thief, and how in your eyes it supposedly lacks interactivity. Just look at this from the last post:

    And your "valid" observations on PREY are no less "valid" than my simple statement that System Shock 2 and Deus Ex have simplified RPG systems and mechanics. Should I put that to the poll?

    Anyhow, time to make a new thread, methinks.
     
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  16. Dev_Anj Learned

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    Continued from the discussion at the Prey thread. It all started with me noticing Ash's claim that Thief is an "overrated immersive sim" and that System Shock 2 and Deus Ex were better. As a huge Thief fan, I obviously disagreed strongly, pointing out that what Thief lacked in RPG systems, it made up for in much better stealth systems and gameplay. Ash then went on to claim that it wasn't just about RPG systems, Thief lacked interactivity too. To that I disagreed, pointing out that both Deus Ex and System Shock 2 have mostly static environments too, with only the addition of some special objects and a few extra tools.

    So answer the question: Is Thief a downgrade from those games or not?

    Moderators, please move the posts from the Prey thread to here.

    Also I expect full on trolling from the Codex. No worries.
     
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  17. Somberlain Arcane Zionist Agent

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    What's going on with you two anyway? Some modder drama or something? It's like Ash posts anything in any thread and soon you'll be there explaining why he is wrong about everything. Every damn time :M
     
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  18. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    You can't be serious. You do realize the irony in that statement right, considering your behavior with various ratings systems used solely to put me down for coming up a whole year now. Meanwhile I've rated your posts for the first or second time ever today and did so appropriately.

    consider yourself banished. I asked you to leave me alone multiple times...
     
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  19. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    Thief is different. More specialized and focuses on doing fewer things right, like atmosphere, stealth and use of sound. Deus Ex does combat much better, and has more options. Both are great games, and both have great gameplay.
     
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  20. Ivan Arcane

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    Thief isn't an RPG. wtf
     
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  21. Nekot-The-Brave Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Nekot-The-Brave
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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    So an Immersive sim is required to be an RPG?
     
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  22. Icewater Ice ice baby Patron

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    tl;dr: Ash is a solid modder but possibly retadred
     
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  23. Arch-Vile Learned

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    The first Thief is superior in both level design and gameplay to System Shock 2. The latter doesn't even experiment with light and sound sources at all, (despite having been built within the same engine) which is a waste, as even the first System Shock included dark areas (maintenance level), and I think that would have improved SS2's ambiance a lot. And what's all the fuss about System Shock 2's 'interactivity'? If I recall correctly, it mostly consisted in breaking windows, hacking computers with that stupid minigame and listening to scattered recordings (the game discarded SS1's emails, cyberspace, teleporters, low-gravity rooms and light bridges). None of them manages to compete with Deus Ex in that regard, but each game has its own strengths and weaknesses, so that's not really a problem.
     
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  24. Ash Arcane

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    This is correct, except spread out over the course of a year, on multiple forums, and with abuse of said forum's rating system, and even extending into PM a couple days back, which I ignored and he got angry.
    He's trying to challenge me intellectually, half out of obsession for me and half out of passive-aggressive hatred is the best I can guess, but has failed the whole time. Maybe "winning" one or two points occasionally, to be fair. Half the time it seems as if he is picking counterpoints at random in the hopes that he will be right at some point.
    It's beneficial because it generates activity on my topics, even if half the time it's utter nonsense, but I've just got tired of it the past month or so.

    To prefer Thief over the truly revolutionary Underworld or prestigious Deus Ex, for two, is to decline-enable. Sorry the butthurt truth makes you lash out like a child. ;)

    Anyway, feel free to send the thread off to retardo land. Thief is a divergence (I never said "downgrade") from the likes of Underworld in many ways, this cannot be disputed because the proof is in the pudding, and whether you prefer it to those other games or not is largely down to personal preference, so /thread
     
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  25. Dev_Anj Learned

    Dev_Anj
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    I don't know, I happen to frequent many of the forums he posts in, and something about the tone of his posts and his attitude set me off strongly. It doesn't help that I have deep seated disagreements with him on a bunch of topics, from checkpoint based saving to universal ammo to damage sponges and probably more. I guess I'm just way too aggressive and don't know when to stop. It doesn't help that Ash is known not to mince his words, especially when it comes to game design.

    But alright, I'll try to lay off the aggression for a while, although I can't help but be upset if someone lashes out at Thief or any of my favorite games, as is to be expected.
     
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