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1eyedking Is Thief a downgrade from Deus Ex/System Shock 2/etc?

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Siel, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    lol Not Anymore. I've worked On Deus Ex's AI for four years.

    Naturally you were making a vanilla contrast but let a guy boast. Especially after the shit I have to put up with.
     
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  2. Dev_Anj Learned

    Dev_Anj
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    Yes, every contribution of mine there was just gossip. Unlike this comment on a mission's design I made not so long ago:

    You really love hyperbole don't you?

    Frequenting the same forums as you is illegal. Wow.
     
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  3. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Playing innocent again. You only visit the majority of said forums specifically to harass me. I've called you out on it multiple times and you've essentially admitted it, and your behavior in this thread further reinforces the fact. I have screenshots. Back off. I've asked nicely multiple times.

    Excuse me for not looking over every single one of your posts. That's not in my nature as it is yours. I just browsed the last few comments and from memory all consisted of petty gossiping as described.
     
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  4. MilesBeyond Erudite

    MilesBeyond
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    ITT: People bitching because other people don't like a game as much as they like it.
     
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  5. Dev_Anj Learned

    Dev_Anj
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    Incorrect. I'm not going to specify the forums you're in that I visit, but for instance I never visited Hitmanforum or the Dark Mod forums to attack you, because you weren't there! Most other forums I visit have something related to the games I like, i.e Thief or Deus Ex or System Shock 2. If you've been seen more conflicts with me recently, it's only because you've got more active and you've posted things that I disagree with, like well your stance on Thief.

    As for the idle gossiping, the fan mission front has been a bit quiet recently, so I was just having a bit of fun. I didn't know that was so wrong.
     
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  6. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Look, even a codexer has taken notice and said so in this very thread. And that's only your behavior that he specifically has observed on the Codex, not elsewhere nor the other things you do here or there. Just stop the harassment and there won't be a problem.
     
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  7. Icewater Artisanal Shitposting™ Patron

    Icewater
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    Ash, I hereby declare that all posts of yours I see shall henceforth be Parroted. Your move, sir.
     
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  8. Dev_Anj Learned

    Dev_Anj
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    I had offered to stop arguing with you yesterday. I wouldn't have picked up the issue again if you didn't start insulting me and by extension a bunch of other people here. Let's make a deal: I'll not argue with you if you stop insulting me or my favorite games. Is that fine?

    On a sidenote:
    Not very bright of you to blackmail me with visual proof that would give away the sites you're active on, are you? :D
     
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  9. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Giving away the sites I visit is of far lesser concern than to get you to stop cyberstalking and harassing me.

    And It wouldn't be done publicly anyway. It would be done privately.

    Call it what you want. What you're doing constitutes as cyber-stalking and harassment.

    Insulting you? Only begun once I grew tired of your shit.
    Insulting your favorite game? Happened today. What about the rest of the year.
    And lol, you won't stop harassing me on every website I visit if I talk shit about your favorite game?

    Well, that's only like 5% of the level of weird and stalkery that Dev_Anj is on so whatever. Not something significant enough to be concerned about.
     
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  10. Dev_Anj Learned

    Dev_Anj
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    Why don't you make it easy on yourself? Why do you have to again try to argue your position in an attempt to "win" :D? Also it's funny that you say every website, even though I know one website that you frequent where I don't have any account... because I'm not that interested in that game. It's related to the upcoming Underworld: Ascendant. The only other two sites you frequent, not counting this one, are both dedicated to games I have interest in, System Shock 2 and Deus Ex.
     
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  11. Multidirectional Arcane

    Multidirectional
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    Hah, CyberP having another meltdown. Time for a new Codex account again?
     
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  12. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Yes, I've been harassed by this fucker for some time and I'm at my wits end. That should come as no surprise. Turns out the guy has a history of harassing mod developers too.
     
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  14. Dev_Anj Learned

    Dev_Anj
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    By "history of harassing modders" you mean the little tiff I had with some Revision developers? Because otherwise I don't go out of my way to harass modders. If you're referring to ice cream cone man and the other guy I mentioned, well, you don't know their history. :D
     
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  15. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    Wow, no, I wasn't talking about those developers. You get around don't you?
     
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  16. Dev_Anj Learned

    Dev_Anj
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    Let thy ice cream cones be blessed!

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Master Arbiter

    Master
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    Reminds me of that Trioptimum commercial from SS2.
     
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  18. Riskbreaker Arcane Patron

    Riskbreaker
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    You're among friends here, dear Ash. Please show us where that nasty, nasty Hammerite touched you as a child. Let us share your pain.

    :lol:
    dat lack of self awareness.

    Indeed, someone here is completely incapable of handling different tastes and opinions.
     
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  19. Unkillable Cat Prestigious Gentleman LEST WE FORGET Patron

    Unkillable Cat
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    Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Where to even fucking begin? From the top, I guess.

    (Disclaimer: I've only briefly played Deus Ex, to the point that I can safely agree with Lyric Suite, it does stealth worse than Thief and combat worse than many other games out there. I am well familiar with all other titles mentioned.)

    "Immersive Sim" after a Google search seems to be a genre defined only by pretentious gaming journalists, which have been proven consistently over the past 2 years to be full of shit. I've been dicking around with games (and the various terms they've been called) for 30 years and since it's only now that I'm hearing about this "genre", I'm gonna call bullshit on it to the point that I say that it does not exist. Any further use of that term will be considered a strawman argument...not to mention just fucking stupid.

    I've heard several reasons why Thief ended up being the "idea" Looking Glass eventually ran with as the flagship title for the Dark Engine, but raising cash for an Ultima Underworld 3 is a new one. Not saying that it's a wrong statement, but it does sound like a stretch of the imagination, and one that could do with a factual reference.

    Stating that System Shock 2 is better than Thief in any other regard than concerning a few irrelevant details (inventory management, in-game character interaction, antagonist, etc) is grasping at straws. And that's BEFORE we get to the point that the two games barely compare, they're apples and oranges.

    Overall I agree with the statement that Ultima Underworld was a more revolutionary game than Thief. The sheer amount of things UUW1 tried to pull off was amazing. So amazing in fact, that the devs couldn't even reproduce all of them in subsequent titles. Example, run and jump against a wall in UUW, then do the same in ANY OTHER FPS (first-person perspective game) ever released...even Thief. UUW gets a "Win!" just for that little detail of real-life physics.

    HOWEVER, there are two important facts that need to be kept in mind when comparing the Underworld games to Thief. First, the Underworld games had a series of issues regarding interface between user and game that needed to be addressed. The Dark Engine resolved almost every single one of those issues. Free movement within a 3D environment was finally possible. Second, comparing a game made with the Dark Engine, and a game (hell, any number of games) made with the predecessor to the Dark Engine, is like comparing steaks to fruits: People will quickly question your (lack of) sanity.

    In fact, most of Ash's arguments in this thread are based on insane comparisons: Comparing apples and oranges - or steaks and fruits - or the color black and tachyons. You get the idea. Or trying to say that his opinion is no less valid than ours, yet keeps calling Thief fanboys raving faggots and degenerates.

    Ash get the fuck out of here; your mouth-breathing rants of futile relevance do nothing anymore than fuel the fires that keep Codexers warm at night.
     
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  20. Stakhanov Augur

    Stakhanov
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    This thread, minus the butthurt and drama, reminds me of some of the points made in this article: http://www.salon.com/2000/06/20/dark_glass/

    The writer basically argues that the decline of PC gaming took root after id's Wolfenstein 3D and Doom, because they marginalised the more thoughtful approach to first-person interaction exemplified in Looking Glass Studio's Ultima Underworld (not to mention Thief and System Shock). I think he might have written more about Ultima Underworld vs. Doom, and why it was superior from a design point of view, but I can't find it, in any case here's an example:
    It just goes to show that if you go back far enough games that are now seen as timeless classics were part of the same heated arguments about impact on the gaming industry and the ever-waxing forces of DECLINE.
     
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  21. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    I'm saying they're better, because I think they're better and prefer them. I've not tried to argue objectively on the specifics. I've repeatedly stated it's a matter of opinion as to what you prefer or think is better. Indeed that's a case of apples and oranges as one's stealth, others are RPG hybrids. I think it's very odd and even decline-enabling not to prefer the likes of Underworld considering its significance but some people prefer stealth games to RPGs and that's just how it is. Not to mention the majority of 'em ITT haven't even played UW anyway and don't even know what an Immersive Sim is so I think it's more a case of plain ignorance.

    The only thing that's objective in regards to comparisons is Thief is less ambitious and is a divergence of the Immersive Sim.

    It's defined by the developers themselves and in use by them today. Are you people fans or what? Oh wait, Thief fans. To most the other games don't even exist.

    Why wouldn't I if said fanboys are calling me names first? I'm not that resilient or astute, clearly. Not to mention I'm frustrated from Dev_Anj's influence and manipulation of events. Simple cause and effect, just as stating my (again valid and sensible) opinion caused the raving fanboys to lose their minds to begin with.

    No, it's a difference of opinion.

    Anyway, this is like one kid coming from classroom A into classroom B and having all the kids of class B throw rocks because boy of class A prefers football over basketball and isn't afraid to say it. Kids of class C turn up, some agree, some disagree, but they throw rocks anyway to fit in in fear of suffering the wrath of class B. P.sad, really.

    Bonus fact: Boy of class A is more knowledgeable on the topic of sports than the majority of the raving supremacists of class B.

    Oh shut up. We were having a disagreement. I never said anyone else wasn't entitled to their opinion, yet I felt like I wasn't as a result of rabid overwhelming fanboy aggression.
     
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  22. Lyric Suite Converting to Islam

    Lyric Suite
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    It is kinda funny because the words "immersive" and "sim" are fine by themselves, and those games were very good at both immersion (possibly among the best ever in that regard) and simulation, but put together they just sound stupid as fuck.

    At any rate, i'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second in that there is an element of truth in what Ash is trying to contend. Ultima Underworld really did push a certain specific vision, an idea of what could be accomplished within the medium, or even gaming in general, that had a huge role in determining what the game became during development. The problem is that there is still a great deal of difference between "ambition" and execution. It could be argued that a game like Thief was less ambitious in scope than an Ultima Underworld or a Deus Ex, but in terms of execution it was a masterwork which has almost no equals that i can think of. You cannot dismiss that level excellence in terms of craft based on some standard of a purely conceptual nature you have set up above everything. It's like dismissing a Beethoven's piano sonata because it isn't as "ambitious" (arguably) as some of his symphonies, despite the fact his sonatas are among the best musical compositions ever made.

    Ok, bad analogy since some of his sonatas are actually more ambitious than some of his symphonies, but you get the point.
     
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  23. Carrion Arcane Patron

    Carrion
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    The term was coined by Warren Spector, and it is useful in describing a particular philosophy of game design, even if the term itself can be somewhat misleading.

    On the other hand it also features stuff that is executed far better than in other Looking Glass games or Deus Ex, like light and sound, which play a huge rule in the game and can be directly manipulated by the player. There's the usual level of interactivity like picking up, carrying, throwing and breaking objects (or people) in the game world. The control scheme is slightly more elaborate than in SS2 or Deus Ex, allowing for some types of movement that aren't possible in those games.

    I guess you could still make an argument that Thief is less ambitious mechanically than those other games, as it has a narrower scope and tighter focus on a few particular elements, but then again, it also displays a huge level of ambition elsewhere, from its audiovisual design to its complex and varying levels, and as a whole it's a masterpiece in more ways than one. Deus Ex is my favorite game, but if an alien landed on my backyard and asked me what a computer game was, I'd tell it to play Thief.
     
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  24. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    And that's fine! I strongly disagree that Thief is as go-to despite being a good game. It's my least favorite of the classics and I think it's overrated when compared to the rest of Looking Glass' (underrated by comparison) catalog which I think are better, but you're not throwing rocks at me on a personal level so I'm not going to throw any back. funny how that works. we can swear at each other if you want, but calling me crazy, claiming I was beaten as a child and claiming the thread should be nuked at the very suggestion that their other games are better is grounds for me fighting back hard and putting people in their place.

    Yeah see, I look at all their games in the classic lineage as masterworks and second to none design and execution. Some may have a little rough edges (Deus Ex) but others (Shock 2) are as tight or nearly as tight as Thief to the point the difference of "tightness" is negligible. And I think they're that great despite having broader scope, making them overall greater in my eyes. when it comes to Deus Ex and it's "looseness", well I prefer loose complexity to tight simplicity, which should come as no surprise considering we're on RPG codex and pretty much all RPGs lack tightness.

    Tight complexity is something I strive to achieve, actually, and judging by the codex's reception of my work It seems I've achieved it.
     
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  25. tormund Arcane

    tormund
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    You should weaponize that. i can already see article on Huffington Post:

    "Disabled autistic video game fan shares a shocking story of harassment campaign against him led by Sedaud "Dev_Anj" Ritli, Indian alt-right figurehead, Shaivite Fundamentalist and Aryan Supremacist"
    Inside the dark world of Indian alternative right: "If you can't take the heat, you certainly won't enjoy your stay in the oven", declares Ritli
    In related news: "Thief: The Dark project" -
    harmless video game, or alt right recruitment tool sent back in time by Alexander Dugin's technopriests"
    More: "Our universe might be a simulation run by Russian hackers, reveals NASA's 20 billion dollar heavy research" "Gib moar plz" says NASA's representative


     
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