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1eyedking Is Thief a downgrade from Deus Ex/System Shock 2/etc?

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Siel, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. skacky Prestigious Gentleman 3D Realms Developer

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    Not only that, but Thief makes you feel anguish even in human-populated areas with the simple fact that you are somewhere you don't belong.
     
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  2. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

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    Thief is the dumbed down godfather of Assassins Creed.
     
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  3. tormund Arcane

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    Why even pretend that you appreciate even a single element of Thief's stealth when you just proved that you see no difference between it or Hitman's stealth, or bare-bones "stay out of enemy line of sight" stealth of DE and AC games...

    It's no sacrilege. There was a poll around here where majority of voters though SS1 superior, and some codexers even argued that it is vastly inferior in their posts. Plus, SS1>SS2 seems to be standard stance of LGS fans these days.
     
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  4. Master Arbiter

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    Agreed. Better topic would be is SS2 a downgrade from Thief/DX.
     
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  5. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

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    But there is no difference. They are all just press control to sneak up on people and then press a button to insta gank them. Hitman was better because there was so much more to do.

    The problem with games like Thief is that they started in the olden days with primitive tech and low budgets, and they tried something new. It sort of worked, but it should have evolved and developed a lot more by now. Only it didn't. Because the genre died and everyone started playing Call of Doody instead. And when someone reboots a game like that, it comes back more or less the same as it was 100 years ago. Modern gamers don't know it even exists, and old fanboys defend it to their grave, even though like I said, it should have evolved and become a lot more developed by now.

    The same is true of RPG's. That's why PoE was shit. They have no budget and not enough talent to make a great modern RPG, and it will NEVER improve. Because modern gamers are busy with Skyrim, and old gamers will defend it even though it shouldn't be defended.
     
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  6. Ash Arcane

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    So why have I been made out to be apparently claiming I'm allowed an opinion and nobody else is entitled to one? I went over this whole thread (my god, you lot really are the pathetic trash of society) and right from the very beginning I'm CONSTANTLY stating its a matter of opinion. But hey, plenty other people with other opinions are turning up now, doesn't look one-sided and clear-cut after all does it you rabid idiots.

    You degenerates ask if it is I that was abused as a child (for not liking your precious game as much as you do), but what leads to the formation of deranged individuals that hang about on this forum and act utterly insane as exemplified in this very thread? It's funny, you look at me as if I'm crazy yet it's the majority of individuals in this place that are the bottom of the barrel of society, and a mixture of plain weird, insane, harassing, racist, trolling neckbeard sadists. I'm willing to bet a man like that is not formed from a good upbringing.

    Such lax rules on a board is going to attract the worst of the worst. As always I'm disappointed this is the only place that recognizes the widespread decline. No wonder developers stopped catering to hardcore gamers if this is the representation of them.
     
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  7. Jazz_ Magister

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    I don't quite remember vanilla Deus Ex because I have played it centuries ago, I've been replaying it with GMDX mod recently and the AI is nowhere as braindead and blind as Thief, c'mon in Thief to be seen you basicly had to bump into guards, they had the field of vision of a dead mole. In Deus Ex they actually see you from a distance, but then again it's probably just because of the aforementioned mod, dunno.
     
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  8. Ash Arcane

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    It is because of said mod. Vanilla the AI is probably worse than Thief.
     
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  9. tormund Arcane

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    Ash, do you think that Thief would be improved if shadows/lighting mechanics were either completely removed or if their role was wholly minimized?
    Honest question, as it seems that both you and some other codexers either ignore that part or see it as a negative.
     
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  10. Ash Arcane

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    Well, you're giving me the common decency of treating me as a human being despite having a different opinion so sure, I'll answer your question.

    No. I don't think that. The manipulation of light and sound and those dynamics with the AI is part of the best gameplay aspects of Thief and what makes said gameplay unique.
    It does feel odd when you're not spotted despite standing in slightly dark corners but ultimately that's the mechanics of the game and all games have unrealistic elements to make them fun. The devs could have gone for more extensive cover/line of sight-based stealth but then the manipulation of light which is a very cool and interesting element would not be at the forefront of the gameplay and it'd be more like every other stealth game out there.

    But maybe a more realistic, even mix of light-based and line of sight-based stealth would be appropriate for a modern day Thief game. That way it'd be varied and not have players questioning an unrealistic gameplay element and, depending on how you look at it, it could be better (or worse). But I'd go for whatever makes the game deeper and more fun as long as it's not too unrealistic/unbelievable, usually. Not sure how Thief 4 handled it because I won't touch that game out of principle.
     
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  11. Riskbreaker Arcane Patron

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    Seriously tho.
    You need a shrink. And I mean that, and I am not speaking of your brand of obnoxiousness which is common enough. If you're honest to God incapable of seeing the way in which you treated any sort of disagreement in this thread or the attitude with which you enter discussions - hell, if you are capable of starting your comment with that and then writing the rest of it the way you did, and then acting as a victim afterwards and demanding to be treated seriously - then something's off in there.
     
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  12. Ash Arcane

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    I'm aware I've been aggressive and provocative you idiot. I started this by provoking a rabid fanbase. But not anywhere have I said nor implied nobody else is entitled to an opinion, and there's clear lines in the sand you don't cross, like claiming I was beaten as a child etc. I'm the one that needs a shrink? The only thing crazy I'm doing is participating on RPGCodex.
    And again, when you're under attack by a large group of individuals getting personal and under sustained harassment by a particular one it's difficult to maintain composure. I get angry too, you know.

    But you're an angry Thief fan and a RPG Codex member, so I'm not expecting you to be sensible about what I do or say, or what anyone else does.

    And the trigger statement aside from simply having a different opinion, ("I don't give a shit if I ruffle feathers, Thief fans gonna Thief") was more me raging at Dev_anj, because that fucker has been harassing me for some time, wherever I go. Most of it ITT is just a bunch of butthurt retards raging at eachother, really.

    So I'm sorry I'm not the best representative of rationality here, but I'm still far more stable than most despite having a pet harasser.
     
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  13. Maggot Prophet Patron

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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
    In what way? I don't think you've ever played the Hitman games because they involve hiding in plain sight and killing off targets. I think you're just being edgy for the sake of being edgy. Also the AI in those games were terrible for the longest time. Codename 47 can't compare to Thief 2 in the stealth or AI department.
     
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  14. Dev_Anj Learned

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    The funny part is that he does have a girlfriend, which is amazing considering the utter lack of social skills he displays.

    In some ways, I'm glad this thread exists. It exposes him for what he truly is; a grade A asshole almost on the level of DarkSydePhil with some decent modding skills.
     
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  15. Ash Arcane

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    A Stalker and harasser is providing judgement of my character. And no irony is seen in that.
    And no, I'm not an asshole and I maintain healthy relationships, even online. You of all people should damn well know that. I've started being mean to you of late, yes, but is it any wonder why? Especially since I've asked you to leave me alone multiple times on separate occasions and you just. wont. stop.

    You may have your little butthurt codex buddies encouraging your behavior so you think this is OK, but it's not.
     
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  16. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I agree. Of the games mentioned SS2 is the only one I haven't completed. To me it was a decline compared to the other games. I hated the guns always breaking after a few shots, for example.
     
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  17. Juan_Carlo Arcane

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    SS2 has great atmosphere at the start and it's an engaging enough game right up to the infamous twist. Its ultimately a corridor shooter, though, where the same 4 or 5 monsters jump out at you and say "boo!" over and over. Add to that awful, nearly non-existent stealth mechanics, terrible combat mechanics (combat's stiff, floaty, and there's rarely any room to maneuver), endlessly respawning monsters, tedious ammo management, and equipment upkeep and the game completely goes down hill in its second half. I had to force myself to finish it just to say I did. And I'm not sure why anyone would want to play it twice.

    I've never understood why it's so highly rated. Although, I never liked the Bioshock games either. Bioshock 1 was gorgeous art design and a few good set pieces, repeated over and over and over.
     
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  18. Juan_Carlo Arcane

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    For myself personally, I have a very specific meaning for immersion. Immersion is what happens when you forget you are playing a game. As such, it's really difficult to sustain as typically immersion can only happen for that brief period while the game's underlying mechanics are still a mystery to you. It's about creating the illusion that anything can happen while masking its own mechanics in the process.

    Some game mechanics are completely opposed to immersion. By definition a turn based strategy game probably couldn't be terribly immersive as it wears its game mechanics on its sleave. Same thing with many modern "icon on a map" games like Assassin's Creed and Far Cry. They never have a chance to be immersive because they are constantly shoving their gamey elements in your face. And I guess the least immersive game ever would be something like chess.....pure gameplay mechanics.

    Immersion is fleeting, though, and still well beyond our present technology to sustain for any duration longer than small doses. And, honestly, not terribly fun as a game. If I want immersion I'll take a walk outside or go to a movie. It's why, as I've matured, I tend to prefer more game-y games which have clever or deep gameplay mechanics over immersion. And I feel like as VR starts to take off, we will start to delineate more between VR games (whose goal might be immersion in a specific environment) and video games (whose goal is "play" within some type of game mechanics).

    Although, immersion can be fun in small doses. I could count on my hands the number of times I've truly been immersed in a game: The first time I played Doom, the opening sections of "Amnesia" before you learn how to game the monster, the first few hours of playing "Daggerfall" (when I was still under the impression it was a living breathing world, rather than an algorithm that just generates the same repetitive shit over and over), the opening of Half Life (which might seem overly linear by today's standards, but at the time those heavily scripted cinematic type sequences were really revolutionary), Gothic 1.....I could list more examples if I really thought about it.
     
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  19. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

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    ^ I agree that gamey stuff stops you being immersed, but I disagree with the rest. There is something about EverQuest that is incredibly immersive, and lots of people have talked about it. Yet the graphics and sound are primitive, and there is a lot of UI and there are a lot of gamey things you have to do from time to time. But I can play it for 7 hours straight, a thousand times over many years, and yet the whole time I feel like I am actually in that world. It is amazing.

    I also sometimes get the same feeling from those old SSI games like Eye of the Beholder, even though half the screen is UI and the actual game window is just a little square. I think the first person perspective has a lot to do with it, yet there are countless first person games that don't immerse me at all.

    In other words I think I don't think it is simple, and I think when people talk about being immersed, it is a good description of what they are feeling and it is something that is valuable in gaming. You could still have a very immersive game that is no good, and there are lots of incredible games that are not immersive at all, but still, immersion can be really good if it happens in the right game. RPG's especially. I don't think people should be scared to talk about it because it is an industry buzzword, and I don't think it even is an industry buzzword. There are far worse and more commonly used bullshit buzzwords used in gaming that people should focus on.
     
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  20. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

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    I've been playing Blood Money this whole last week, and what you just said about it isn't true. The top rating for each mission is to win by not killing anyone except the targets, and even then they are usually killed by setting up a trap like a falling chandelier or whatever. You find ether in a vet clinic and then go to a gangsters house and pour it on his wifes panties that his bodyguard sniffs. You put an aphrodisiac in a guys drink to get him out of the hot tub and wait for him to go to a private room with a girl so you can get him. You flick light switches, break fuse boxes, etc..etc..

    Most of the missions I've completed without killing a single person outside of the main target. I maybe punch one or two people to knock them out, but mostly the game is about solving the puzzles of how to kill people in creative ways without raising suspicion. There is a lot of variety and it is all stuff the Thief games couldn't do. You might be right that the very first Hitman game isn't as good as the second Thief game, I can't remember either enough to know or care. I just know Blood Money is better than any game in the Thief series. And really, both series should have been better.

    p.s. You can't hide in plain sight in any of those games. And how is it edgy to like one game but not another? It's not like one is hugely popular and one isn't. They are both more or less the same in terms of popularity.
     
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  21. Lyric Suite Converting to Islam

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    ^ From possibly retarded to totally retarded.
     
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  22. Infinitron I post news Patron

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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Thief is a stealth exploration game. If you're going to stack up its "stealth mechanics" against Hitman or Splinter Cell or whatever to see which one lets you do more "cool stuff", you're going to miss the point.
     
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  23. Master Arbiter

    Master
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    Thief sucks because Garrett cant pour ether on peoples underwear. Agreed, truly LGS displayed lack of vision here.
     
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  24. Dev_Anj Learned

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    ^Someone should make a Thief FM where one of your objectives is to pour the Trickster's essence onto a pompous noble lady's undergarments.
     
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  25. Juan_Carlo Arcane

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    When I replayed the entire Thief series for the first time since the 90s a couple years ago, it really struck me how the stealth, while great, is almost an after thought. These are really "navigate massive, labyrinthine, levels with just a sketched paper map" games. Navigation has always been the hardest part of Thief.

    I still think there is something cool about being given a sketched paper map and being told to go to it. Few games do that anymore.
     
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