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Baldur's Gate Is Viconia evil? and other Drow discussions

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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Oct 3, 2015
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Imagine burning the Elf.
Dc-dwarf-epilogue.jpg
 

Cael

Arcane
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Nov 1, 2017
Messages
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It's never actually clear what Viconia has done before you meet her. As a Drow she is the easy target to be blamed for anything and at the same time as a Drow she may have done much worse.

In BG1 when you meet her it seems like she is persecuted by the guard solely because she is drow, but If you charm the officer, he reveals she is wanted for the murder of a family.
In BG2 she reveals to the PC that she tried to live by herself peacefully in the wilderness and some nearby farmers realized she is a drow, they tricked her by faking good intent and then they beat her up, raped her and buried her alive, but she managed to claw herself out and took her revenge.

But that could also be a lie, as Jaheira points out. On the other hand she and Jaheira are always at odds, so who knows. If you romance Viconia at some point she even admits that she has bedded all kinds of filthy merchants in order to take advantage of them and that she has even murdered some of them in the end. But she could be exaggerating because she is also trying to break the romance. Viconia is very ambiguous, that's why I like her a lot.

That, and also because she's the best cleric in the game. Dat magic resistance is pretty sexy too.
The thing about Viconia is that her Evil nature is an informed attribute. At no point in both games was it revealed that she is Evil in any way. Yes, she is ruthless when it comes to retaliating against those that wronged her, but that is not a trait of Evil. At every point, she had always tried to run away from conflict or live in peace. This despite the fact she worships an Evil Goddess of Darkness, Loss, Envy and Hate that should have her killing anyone that looked at her wrong.

Her story in BG2 is a prime example. All she wanted was to live in peace, but a couple of rednecks decided to rape and murder her. Later on, she tells you more of her time on the surface, and IIRC she actually tells you the tale that got her hunted in BG in the first place (i.e., the merchant story). And in that one, she is a Cleric being chased by a Fighter that charname could easily beat into the ground at level 1. Did she have to run? Not really. A simple Command > mace-to-skull would have ended the matter, and would have been what an Evil cleric would have done. But she ran to avoid further trouble.

That is why people are sympathetic towards Viconia. She isn't Evil by any objective measure. She is just someone who wants to live in peace but is attacked left and right because of the colour of her skin. Literally. The fucking BLM movement should be using her as a poster child.
 

MpuMngwana

Arbiter
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
336
informed attribute
which is written, in plain English, on her character sheet. I assume the same information could be gained by casting Detect Evil, but I've never tried that. DnD isn't very nuanced with it's morality, in-universe she's objectively evil, whatever that entails.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Viconia is evil in the D&D sense, she's a drow that worships an evil goddess = evil. Objectively. That kinda cheapens "evil" as a concept and a word, though.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
20,287
Viconia is evil in the D&D sense, she's a drow that worships an evil goddess = evil. Objectively. That kinda cheapens "evil" as a concept and a word, though.
Wrong!

In DnD, you can be a Neutral worshipper of an Evil deity.

Read the fucking manual.
 
Joined
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Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
It's never actually clear what Viconia has done before you meet her. As a Drow she is the easy target to be blamed for anything and at the same time as a Drow she may have done much worse.

In BG1 when you meet her it seems like she is persecuted by the guard solely because she is drow, but If you charm the officer, he reveals she is wanted for the murder of a family.
In BG2 she reveals to the PC that she tried to live by herself peacefully in the wilderness and some nearby farmers realized she is a drow, they tricked her by faking good intent and then they beat her up, raped her and buried her alive, but she managed to claw herself out and took her revenge.

But that could also be a lie, as Jaheira points out. On the other hand she and Jaheira are always at odds, so who knows. If you romance Viconia at some point she even admits that she has bedded all kinds of filthy merchants in order to take advantage of them and that she has even murdered some of them in the end. But she could be exaggerating because she is also trying to break the romance. Viconia is very ambiguous, that's why I like her a lot.

That, and also because she's the best cleric in the game. Dat magic resistance is pretty sexy too.
The thing about Viconia is that her Evil nature is an informed attribute. At no point in both games was it revealed that she is Evil in any way. Yes, she is ruthless when it comes to retaliating against those that wronged her, but that is not a trait of Evil. At every point, she had always tried to run away from conflict or live in peace. This despite the fact she worships an Evil Goddess of Darkness, Loss, Envy and Hate that should have her killing anyone that looked at her wrong.

Her story in BG2 is a prime example. All she wanted was to live in peace, but a couple of rednecks decided to rape and murder her. Later on, she tells you more of her time on the surface, and IIRC she actually tells you the tale that got her hunted in BG in the first place (i.e., the merchant story). And in that one, she is a Cleric being chased by a Fighter that charname could easily beat into the ground at level 1. Did she have to run? Not really. A simple Command > mace-to-skull would have ended the matter, and would have been what an Evil cleric would have done. But she ran to avoid further trouble.

That is why people are sympathetic towards Viconia. She isn't Evil by any objective measure. She is just someone who wants to live in peace but is attacked left and right because of the colour of her skin. Literally. The fucking BLM movement should be using her as a poster child.
Drows always lie you imbecile.
She is evil, therefore she lies.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
It's never actually clear what Viconia has done before you meet her. As a Drow she is the easy target to be blamed for anything and at the same time as a Drow she may have done much worse.

In BG1 when you meet her it seems like she is persecuted by the guard solely because she is drow, but If you charm the officer, he reveals she is wanted for the murder of a family.
In BG2 she reveals to the PC that she tried to live by herself peacefully in the wilderness and some nearby farmers realized she is a drow, they tricked her by faking good intent and then they beat her up, raped her and buried her alive, but she managed to claw herself out and took her revenge.

But that could also be a lie, as Jaheira points out. On the other hand she and Jaheira are always at odds, so who knows. If you romance Viconia at some point she even admits that she has bedded all kinds of filthy merchants in order to take advantage of them and that she has even murdered some of them in the end. But she could be exaggerating because she is also trying to break the romance. Viconia is very ambiguous, that's why I like her a lot.

That, and also because she's the best cleric in the game. Dat magic resistance is pretty sexy too.
The thing about Viconia is that her Evil nature is an informed attribute. At no point in both games was it revealed that she is Evil in any way. Yes, she is ruthless when it comes to retaliating against those that wronged her, but that is not a trait of Evil. At every point, she had always tried to run away from conflict or live in peace. This despite the fact she worships an Evil Goddess of Darkness, Loss, Envy and Hate that should have her killing anyone that looked at her wrong.

Her story in BG2 is a prime example. All she wanted was to live in peace, but a couple of rednecks decided to rape and murder her. Later on, she tells you more of her time on the surface, and IIRC she actually tells you the tale that got her hunted in BG in the first place (i.e., the merchant story). And in that one, she is a Cleric being chased by a Fighter that charname could easily beat into the ground at level 1. Did she have to run? Not really. A simple Command > mace-to-skull would have ended the matter, and would have been what an Evil cleric would have done. But she ran to avoid further trouble.

That is why people are sympathetic towards Viconia. She isn't Evil by any objective measure. She is just someone who wants to live in peace but is attacked left and right because of the colour of her skin. Literally. The fucking BLM movement should be using her as a poster child.
Drows always lie you imbecile.
She is evil, therefore she lies.
Beautiful logical fallacy at work.

"Drow lies. Evil lies. Therefore, she must lie."
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Viconia is evil in the D&D sense, she's a drow that worships an evil goddess = evil. Objectively. That kinda cheapens "evil" as a concept and a word, though.
Wrong!

In DnD, you can be a Neutral worshipper of an Evil deity.

Read the fucking manual.
I have. Drow aren't even a playable race in 2E, and are chaotic evil in the manual, there is no mention of good or neutral aligned drow at all. Their whole lore is that they were the evil elves driven underground by the others. I don't think it's deeper than "she's a drow who worships an evil goddess". Yes, you can be a neutral follower of an evil deity, but not as a drow in this particular case. At least that's how I interpret it.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Viconia is evil in the D&D sense, she's a drow that worships an evil goddess = evil. Objectively. That kinda cheapens "evil" as a concept and a word, though.
Wrong!

In DnD, you can be a Neutral worshipper of an Evil deity.

Read the fucking manual.
I have. Drow aren't even a playable race in 2E, and are chaotic evil in the manual, there is no mention of good or neutral aligned drow at all. Their whole lore is that they were the evil elves driven underground by the others. I don't think it's deeper than "she's a drow who worships an evil goddess". Yes, you can be a neutral follower of an evil deity, but not as a drow in this particular case. At least that's how I interpret it.
Driz'zt and Liriel and Zaknafien and a bunch of others, like those worshipping Eilistrae says you are full of shit.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Driz'zt and Liriel and Zaknafien and a bunch of others, like those worshipping Eilistrae says you are full of shit.
Ok, they are non-evil aligned (and quite the exception, and all came out after the first print of 2E), but none of them worship an evil deity. Drizzt worshiped either Gwaeron Windstorm or Mielikki, depending on the edition; Liriel either Mystra or Eilistraee; and I can't find any info on who Zak worshiped. And perhaps we are overthinking this, I doubt Bioware wanted to make a female version of Drizzt and preferred to have an evil drow companion, so she's evil and worships an evil deity. The good/neutral drow are exceptions in 2E, which aren't mentioned in the monster manual, mostly made to be protagonists or party members in books so people can root for them.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Cherrypicking a handful of notable exceptions out of an entire race doesn't help your argument.
Drows are evil, Viconia is evil, and her being a woman definitely doesn't help. She's lying to manipulate you.
For all you know, Lolth planned the entire thing out, think of who the main character is after all.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Her being able to change her alignment to neutral seems to indicate that there's something she isn't lying about. What that is, however, is left to the imagination I guess.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Driz'zt and Liriel and Zaknafien and a bunch of others, like those worshipping Eilistrae says you are full of shit.
Ok, they are non-evil aligned (and quite the exception, and all came out after the first print of 2E), but none of them worship an evil deity. Drizzt worshiped either Gwaeron Windstorm or Mielikki, depending on the edition; Liriel either Mystra or Eilistraee; and I can't find any info on who Zak worshiped. And perhaps we are overthinking this, I doubt Bioware wanted to make a female version of Drizzt and preferred to have an evil drow companion, so she's evil and worships an evil deity. The good/neutral drow are exceptions in 2E, which aren't mentioned in the monster manual, mostly made to be protagonists or party members in books so people can root for them.
Unlike you, I judge individuals according to their actions.

Just because humans are capable of Evil worse than anything the drow can come up with, I don't consider all humans as Evil. That you and your retarded cheerleader there fail to see this point and utterly fail to even come up with anything that would make Viconia Evil other than "drow hur-dur evulululul! Wymmyn evululululul!" says much. Next you'd be telling me you got cooties from kissing a girl.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
The whole discussion began because I said she's evil in the D&D sense (at least 2E), where evil is palpable, empirical, objective and you are judged based on actual metaphysical criteria. Orcs are evil, just like they are evil in Tolkien, arguing that you judge on the actions of the individual is besides the point, it is not you who judges, but the universe. It has decreed that Viconia is evil because she's a drow and worships Shar. And she doesn't have anything against us being total monsters and villains, quite the contrary, she delights in our depravity. So yeah, she enables evil acts in our party and I'd say that counts as evil even without taking into account Fearun's metaphysics.
 
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ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,593
Zaknaifen was 100% forced to worship Lloth, at least on the surface, since his social position.
Unless specified in a RA Salvatore book I have no knowledge off, I guess he could have been a Vhaeraun follower.
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
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Feb 3, 2017
Messages
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No! My waifu can't be evil!: The Thread

Forget Waifu Vicky, there are other examples of "misaligned" characters in the Bg serie whose alignment can be questioned. Korgan? Jaheira being neutral just because ADnD mechanics?
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
Character sheet says otherwise.

...And that's one of the reasons why alignment system is shit and followers sharing their full character sheets with you fucking derpy.

I can agree with that. I think there should be some mystery to characters who join you. No one joins a party and then hands you a sheet with all their vital statistics on it. Add some mystery, some unknowing. That would be cool imo.
 

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